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Hi to all nid players,
I'm looking for some advice on how to counter genestealers with marines.

Heres the tactic my opponent uses:
20 genestelears with poison thingies are deployed in reserves
genestealers are using the hive fleet trait that doubles theyir advance
Every time i try to screen against him heres what he does:
advances his carnifexes and wipes out my screen units
Then deepstrikes the genestealers, gives them feeel no pain and invulnerable buffs and using his swarmlord orders them to move in their shooting phase and advance

They move and advance up to 20 inches easily getting in range to whatever they want to charge, then if i dont kill 10 of them in overwatch its 4 attacks off of each genestealer
and if they fight for a second time using the stratagem its basicaly game over for me.

The problem is that my army is mostly infantry so it gets crippled after such an assault

It sounds like you are deploying to close towards opponent. How do the carnifex kill your screen?

General rule vs nids is hug the table edge, shoot and fall back. As an imperial you shoot better then him. Does he deepstrike both the swarmlord and genestealers in spore and trygon respectivly?

Do you have scouts to deny deep strike?

What is your list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, while what you describe is legal. The way you describe it aounds like he is playing something wrong, or you are playing something odd with your tactics.

I take it he is kraken? The double move stratagem is the kraken strtagem that doubles advance dice, or the one that lets him double move but can not charge that turn? Where is the swarmlord, does he conga line stealers? The invonerablr save is the 5++ and catalyst is the 5+++?

The double fight stratagem, he can only fight things he decleared a charge against if it is the turn he charged (I asume it is.) That can e a lot of overwatch.

 Niiai wrote:
It sounds like you are deploying to close towards opponent. How do the carnifex kill your screen?

General rule vs nids is hug the table edge, shoot and fall back. As an imperial you shoot better then him. Does he deepstrike both the swarmlord and genestealers in spore and trygon respectivly?

Do you have scouts to deny deep strike?

What is your list?

My list is basically an azraels gunline,10 hellblasters, devastator squad ancient, leutenant. I have two squads of scours and an intercessor squad for screening and i got 2 6-man squads of inceptors with bolters and plasmas a jump pack capitain and a leutenant to back them up and a culexus assasin for some psychic defence. Oh and a darkshroud to better protect my gunline.
Its not an ideal list, especially against hordes but i wonder what i can change and which tactics to use against this tyranid combo.

Genestealers are deployed around trygon, after reading the rules im wondering if its at all possible to set up 20 genestealers wholly with 3 inches around him.

I guess that my mistake is that i tend to deploy the azrael bubble in some ruin to get cover that usually places me closer to opponent.

The other problem is that he has so much units that eventually get to all objectives

Does the swarmlord come in from deepstrike as well?

 Niiai wrote:
Does the swarmlord come in from deepstrike as well?

Yes, swarmlord is also from deepstrike and he has some other stuff coming in a spore, broodlord i believe

It is very possible to sett up 20 genstealers around a trygon and get a charge. Usually the trygon has a problem getting a charge in the same turn as you have to wrap around it, often leaving the trygon with a more then 8" charge. (Remember adrenal glands on the trygon.)

Assuming both swarmlord and stealers deepstrike in you can not deny him the charge. But that is almost 850 points of units, so you can dictate what hr can charge. Just have your lest best thing surounding your important units with a large gap between. Eat thr charge. Shoot genestealers, and trygons afterwards. Tank one turn of swarmlord melee. (The 4++ makes him unreliable to shoit in one turn. Not so wity the trygonm)

 Niiai wrote:
It is very possible to sett up 20 genstealers around a trygon and get a charge. Usually the trygon has a problem getting a charge in the same turn as you have to wrap around it, often leaving the trygon with a more then 8" charge. (Remember adrenal glands on the trygon.)

Assuming both swarmlord and stealers deepstrike in you can not deny him the charge. But that is almost 850 points of units, so you can dictate what hr can charge. Just have your lest best thing surounding your important units with a large gap between. Eat thr charge. Shoot genestealers, and trygons afterwards. Tank one turn of swarmlord melee. (The 4++ makes him unreliable to shoit in one turn. Not so wity the trygonm)

Another question, is there any point of trying to deny his pscychic powers using a culexus?

That is 1117 points. More if he actually put toxic sacks on his gesntealers. Just take 3 small 5 man group of scouts and sett up huge 9" zones to deny deep strike. Remember he needs to be within 12" to decleare charge, and he can not fight something he did not decleare charge against if he used the 2x fight stratagem that turn.

After the dead scouts, just shoot the stealers and the trygon. Shoot the swarmlord the turn after.




Automatically Appended Next Post:


the calexus -2 to psykik test is good if you have a hood to deny the witch. But the swarmlord is usually outside of 18 and 24 the first turn he casts catalyst, is he not?

Timur wrote:


My list is basically an azraels gunline,10 hellblasters, devastator squad ancient, leutenant. I have two squads of scours and an intercessor squad for screening and i got 2 6-man squads of inceptors with bolters and plasmas a jump pack capitain and a leutenant to back them up and a culexus assasin for some psychic defence. Oh and a darkshroud to better protect my gunline.
Its not an ideal list, especially against hordes but i wonder what i can change and which tactics to use against this tyranid combo.

Genestealers are deployed around trygon, after reading the rules im wondering if its at all possible to set up 20 genestealers wholly with 3 inches around him.

I guess that my mistake is that i tend to deploy the azrael bubble in some ruin to get cover that usually places me closer to opponent.

The other problem is that he has so much units that eventually get to all objectives

So, I agree with the advice that you have already been given.

I could have sworn that one of the FAQ's changed "wholly within" to "within" for the Trygon tunnel, but I can't find it at the moment. Either way, there is enough space for 20 genestealers to set up around him.

You deal with this by setting up several layers of bubble between were he is going to drop in and what you want to keep alive. You won't be able to stop the 'stealers from charging, and he is going to be able to kill at least one screen with shooting/psychics before the stealers charge, so anything that the stealers can consolidate into after they charge your second screen is going to be hit by the second fight. This means you need to have a lot of space between were he drops at and the things you want to keep alive.

Because you can't stop the charge, you have to rely on shooting the stealers to death after they charge. They have a built in 5+ invul, and you can assume that the Swarmlord is giving them Catylist, which is a 5+ feel no pain. The end result is comparable to having a 3+ invul, but it is really streaky-hot or cold dice on the saves can swing a game with FnP genestealers. There is no way for him to improve either of those saves-he can buy a 4+ armor on the stealers, but that is just armor. The invul can never get better than a 5++ and the feel no pain can never get better than a 5+++.

If you shoot at the stealer unit with as many shots as you would use to kill 20 marines, you will kill them. Primaris Inceptors are really good at this-you deep strike them after the 'stealers are on the table, then kill the stealers. The other thing you want to keep in mind is that genestealers are not great at opening tanks. Hide key units inside or behind Rhinos. Even if the genestealers kill the Rhino(s) on the charge, they are now stuck out in the open where you can shoot them to death. He can only use the swarmlord advance on one unit, so if he advances the Swarmlord or the Trygon to kill the tank, the genestealers are stuck rolling the 9" charge. (It is possible, with the right upgrade and Hive Fleet, to make that a 8" rerollable, but the upgrade is expensive to take on 20 'stealers and there are other Hive Fleets with strong options, so it is very unlikely.

You said a spore, singular. 3 units = 3 seperate transports, 1 trygon and 2 spores, right?

 Niiai wrote:
That is 1117 points. More if he actually put toxic sacks on his gesntealers. Just take 3 small 5 man group of scouts and sett up huge 9" zones to deny deep strike. Remember he needs to be within 12" to decleare charge, and he can not fight something he did not decleare charge against if he used the 2x fight stratagem that turn.

After the dead scouts, just shoot the stealers and the trygon. Shoot the swarmlord the turn after.

Thanks for the tips), i might face him this saturday and get back with more details)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
You said a spore, singular. 3 units = 3 seperate transports, 1 trygon and 2 spores, right?

Yes he actually has only one spore but what he puts inside depends on the situation, some times the swarlord might go there sometimes he might just footslog his swarmy and advance to get within 6 inch range of genestealers

 Niiai wrote:
That is 1117 points. More if he actually put toxic sacks on his gesntealers. Just take 3 small 5 man group of scouts and sett up huge 9" zones to deny deep strike. Remember he needs to be within 12" to decleare charge, and he can not fight something he did not decleare charge against if he used the 2x fight stratagem that turn.

After the dead scouts, just shoot the stealers and the trygon. Shoot the swarmlord the turn after.

This is a good idea. You should do this.

The counter for the 'nid player is to use Hive Guard to clear the scouts, but that keeps the deep strike away for a turn, and the marine player can maneuver to deny good deep strikes/win the mission.

 Niiai wrote:


the calexus -2 to psykik test is good if you have a hood to deny the witch. But the swarmlord is usually outside of 18 and 24 the first turn he casts catalyst, is he not?

Might not be. Needs to be within 6 of the Genestealers to double move them, so careful positioning of the calexus could force the 'nid player to choose between being badly placed to deepstrike or casting inside the calexus. Plus swarmy doesn't like calexuses (calexusi?) very much anyway.

Yeah swarmy hitting on 6's is mean. The 4++ can keep the assassin alive. But if it is kraken nids he can run out of melee and charge the same turn. Any other nid and the assassin would be a great tarpit.

Timur wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
That is 1117 points. More if he actually put toxic sacks on his gesntealers. Just take 3 small 5 man group of scouts and sett up huge 9" zones to deny deep strike. Remember he needs to be within 12" to decleare charge, and he can not fight something he did not decleare charge against if he used the 2x fight stratagem that turn.

After the dead scouts, just shoot the stealers and the trygon. Shoot the swarmlord the turn after.

Thanks for the tips), i might face him this saturday and get back with more details)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
You said a spore, singular. 3 units = 3 seperate transports, 1 trygon and 2 spores, right?

Yes he actually has only one spore but what he puts inside depends on the situation, some times the swarlord might go there sometimes he might just footslog his swarmy and advance to get within 6 inch range of genestealers

If he is walking the swarmlord anywhere, you should take advantage of his mistake. If you go second, you can't do much about it. If you go first, you should kill swarmy. Hit him with all your antitank. T7, 12 wounds, 4++ invul. If you don't have enough antitank shooting to kill him in a single turn, you need more antitank shooting. He has too many wounds to be protected by the character rule. If the other guy has venomthropes (gives -1 to hit), kill them down to 2 models-after that they don't protect MC's any more. If he has the Malenthrope (big guy who gives -1 to hit) oh well, he spent 160+ points for that.

Thanks to all for the tips, ive been thinking about bringning rhinos, but my most important unit on the board is the hellblaster squad, i can hide them only in a repulsor, but i would have to drop the inceptors or something else to squeeze it in my list

Whats bad about repulsor is his 3+ save which is why i dont think hes that good to invest in

This might actually be 'metagaming a bit' but most lists want a batallion for 3 cp. Marines are well knows for having one of the worst units in the game in the tactical squad. No matter what edition they are bad. And with scouts being so good and cheap it is hard to not fill the batalion with scouts. It would solve your genstealer problem, as well as giving you a mean objective game against other armies.

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah swarmy hitting on 6's is mean. The 4++ can keep the assassin alive. But if it is kraken nids he can run out of melee and charge the same turn. Any other nid and the assassin would be a great tarpit.

Kraken is gonna Kraken. The mental picture of the assassin chasing the swarmlord around the table is pretty funny. Even with one of the other hive fleets the assassin isn't going to solo swarmy, but between the area denial, spell denial, and off chance for some wounds its probably worth the price. Not a imperial player so idk .

Yeah the primaris transport problem is a grief for marines. SW have a stratagem to outflank them, but every other marine has a movement problem. It is a huge oversight wheb designing them from GW's part. The repulsor (?) transport tank is a huge point sink, it is not a cheap rhino.

Timur wrote:
Thanks to all for the tips, ive been thinking about bringning rhinos, but my most important unit on the board is the hellblaster squad, i can hide them only in a repulsor, but i would have to drop the inceptors or something else to squeeze it in my list

Whats bad about repulsor is his 3+ save which is why i dont think hes that good to invest in

Tryin using 3-4 units of scouts to deny the deep strike. Your game plan is to have the scouts make a box around one corner of the table, as far away from each other as possible. You set up the hellblasters on top of a building in the corner, the rest of your army in a bubble around them, and the inceptors in reserve. If he goes first, he eats 1, maybe two layers of scouts but can't get to the important stuff. Inceptors land and kill the stealers, hellblasters kill the swarmlord. If you go first, plink at stuff, kill the swarmlord if he is on the table, otherwise just wait for his drop.

@Timur - are you using Auspex Scan Stratagem? I appreciate the reach of Swarmstealers is horrific and a 12” opportunity might not present itself, it still might give Intercessors a chance to double-tap from behind Scouts and take some out before Catalyst confers their 5+++.

Also, if you’ve not been enveloped, Intractable could let you fall back and shoot? Overcharged or Dark Age Hellblasters reduce the Catalyst save rate from 33% to about 11%.

@Thread - don’t underestimate the power of a bloodless second fight phase for a deep insertion unit. I’ve been maining my Word Bearers lately, with a max Terminator unit using Warptime to charge from DS and a 3CP Stratagem to fight a second time. Giving your unit two extra pile-in moves, even if it can’t even strike at anything because it didn’t declare charges, has benefits:

- entangle units without eating Overwatch - this is Kryptonite to Burna Boyz, Aggressors, etc

- opportunity to envelop models and prevent fall back moves

- it happens at the end of the fight phase. So, the extra units you reach out and tag do not get to attack you until the following fight phase

I’ve been burning all my CP to run Terminators 20” after teleporting to hug like the entire enemy army. It’s meeting a local metagame of fairly static screen-less gunlines in Mexican standoffs like a wrecking ball going through a greenhouse. Hope people figure out screening soon, or I’ll be TFG

 lindsay40k wrote:
@Timur - are you using Auspex Scan Stratagem? I appreciate the reach of Swarmstealers is horrific and a 12” opportunity might not present itself, it still might give Intercessors a chance to double-tap from behind Scouts and take some out before Catalyst confers their 5+++.

Also, if you’ve not been enveloped, Intractable could let you fall back and shoot? Overcharged or Dark Age Hellblasters reduce the Catalyst save rate from 33% to about 11%.

@Thread - don’t underestimate the power of a bloodless second fight phase for a deep insertion unit. I’ve been maining my Word Bearers lately, with a max Terminator unit using Warptime to charge from DS and a 3CP Stratagem to fight a second time. Giving your unit two extra pile-in moves, even if it can’t even strike at anything because it didn’t declare charges, has benefits:

- entangle units without eating Overwatch - this is Kryptonite to Burna Boyz, Aggressors, etc

- opportunity to envelop models and prevent fall back moves

- it happens at the end of the fight phase. So, the extra units you reach out and tag do not get to attack you until the following fight phase

I’ve been burning all my CP to run Terminators 20” after teleporting to hug like the entire enemy army. It’s meeting a local metagame of fairly static screen-less gunlines in Mexican standoffs like a wrecking ball going through a greenhouse. Hope people figure out screening soon, or I’ll be TFG

Usually my shooting guys are out of 12'' range to use auspex due to screening units, my opponent is well aware of this stratagem and deploys carefully.
Another combo he uses some times is he sends in a hyve tyrant (using swarmy's order) behind my screen and charge something, while i struggle to kill that thing he closes in with his other stuff

Did you try using aggressors? 3 of them eat stealers for breakfast.

Put them in range of what he is likely to charge and let them do the clean up. If they want to assault them too, they will have to declare them as targets, and overwatch from aggressors with azrael and a lieutenant... wow, you really don't want that.

Point of order, you can't place Genestealers lurking and then deep strike them later. If he's doing this with Lictors that is illegal. And he must declare they start with the Trygon in the tunnels.

It sounds like you aren't screening properly. But most importantly you just need dice volume. Aggressors are solid for this, as are assault cannon razorbacks. Genestealers aren't good at killing cheap vehicles... and you can always fall back and shoot them.

As for Carnifexes, if you have lascannons that problem is essentially solved.

Am I being trolled or are FHT’s getting a points nerf in some errata soon?

elfmonkey16 wrote:
Am I being trolled or are FHT’s getting a points nerf in some errata soon?

The March FAQ was specifically postponed to take into account the Adepicon results....in which there was at least 1 list that had 7+ FHTs.
The assumption is that FHTs are either getting a points hike or being limited to 1 per detachment (or both).

-

elfmonkey16 wrote:
Am I being trolled or are FHT’s getting a points nerf in some errata soon?

It's being debated after a leak reported such. There hasn't been a FAQ in my memory that had a points cost change (not counting Chapter Approved), but the Commander Nerf has everyone with duplicate HQs (SM, BA, Tyranids, SOB, AM, GSC) afraid.

Flying Hive Tyrants should not see a point hike.

If they do, I would expect to see Manticores, Basilisks, Leman Russ, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Warlocks, Daemon Princes, and a few other things go up about 50% in price. It's beyond stupid that ONE event with a garbage ruleset would merit such a reaction, when Tyrants got STOMPED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET at LVO by Reaper spam, Chaos, and Imperium.

Tau vastly outperformed Tyranids at LVO, for example, with essentially the same concept.

To nerf Hive Tyrants is to erase viability of Tyranids in even casual metas. It is our one good HQ choice.

I wouldn't say our one good HQ choice. Malanthropes are good (Tho 20-30 pts overcosted, they provide an almost mandatory buff for many builds), and 1-2 neurothropes is still totally legit.

Tervigons are absolute trash. Primes are mostly trash (A jormungandr warrior build is interesting, and they would be important there). Broodlords are far too soft and expensive, but they hit like a truck and are fast. I'd say they're fine for non-tournament play.

[edit] But I agree, a points increase is unwarranted alongside an availability nerf.

So would anybody think about using Walkrants, if the changes are coming to Flyrants (1 per detachement, +20 points)?
I play them in casual lists with a HVC and find them pretty okay most of the time.

 Astmeister wrote:
So would anybody think about using Walkrants, if the changes are coming to Flyrants (1 per detachement, +20 points)?
I play them in casual lists with a HVC and find them pretty okay most of the time.

Tyrants on foot have the same 'problem' carnifex has. If kitted out for melee it cant shoot, if shooty it is mediocre in cc. Carnifexes can take Acid Maw and compensate the lack of cc arms. Tyrants can not act similar and degrade with incoming damage to carnifex levels.
But have a 4++ and can cast psychic powers.

I dont know...

In my meta, a walking tyrant is dead turn 1 or ignored if he cant harm anyone. So its not an option for me to use them.