Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galas wrote:
I'm sad that Grim Resolve doesn't really helps Ravenwing and Deathwing... Deathwing where already inmune to morale on the index.

Will those two receive other special rules? I hope so. With this, basically ravenwing have no chapter tactic. Theres no way you are shooting without moving with your bikes. I'm still hoping that Grim Resolve works like the Cadian Regiment Trait with the order of "take aim", and if you don't move and have a Company Master, then you rerroll all to hit rolls that you fail, not only 1's. Because it overlaps in a big way otherwise.

If Samael remains the same, he gives the Ravenwing flat re-rolls anyway if he's near them. So I mean, they still get the Ld part, not great, but its something. And with Sammy, you can have Overcharging Black Knights running around.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm sad that Grim Resolve doesn't really helps Ravenwing and Deathwing... Deathwing where already inmune to morale on the index.

Will those two receive other special rules? I hope so. With this, basically ravenwing have no chapter tactic. Theres no way you are shooting without moving with your bikes. I'm still hoping that Grim Resolve works like the Cadian Regiment Trait with the order of "take aim", and if you don't move and have a Company Master, then you rerroll all to hit rolls that you fail, not only 1's. Because it overlaps in a big way otherwise.

If Samael remains the same, he gives the Ravenwing flat re-rolls anyway if he's near them. So I mean, they still get the Ld part, not great, but its something. And with Sammy, you can have Overcharging Black Knights running around.

That forces you to take Special Characters again. Not thats a bad thing you know. I know Ravenwing have Jink, but they pay for that being more expensive than all the rest of the SM bikers. Just a shame that our "Chapter Trait" is useless for Ravenwing. The morale loses is useless, even taking squads of 6.

But ey. The Ravenwing Liutenaunt on a Land Speeders? Thats really, really cool. A little derpy to see him with a sword on a land speder, but still cool.

Weapons from the Dark Age seems pretty insane.

Grey Knights pay 2CP to up the Strength (not Damage) of a units bolt weapons for a phase. Dark Angels get +1 Damage on Plasma for half the price sounds ... wrong.

 Galas wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm sad that Grim Resolve doesn't really helps Ravenwing and Deathwing... Deathwing where already inmune to morale on the index.

Will those two receive other special rules? I hope so. With this, basically ravenwing have no chapter tactic. Theres no way you are shooting without moving with your bikes. I'm still hoping that Grim Resolve works like the Cadian Regiment Trait with the order of "take aim", and if you don't move and have a Company Master, then you rerroll all to hit rolls that you fail, not only 1's. Because it overlaps in a big way otherwise.

If Samael remains the same, he gives the Ravenwing flat re-rolls anyway if he's near them. So I mean, they still get the Ld part, not great, but its something. And with Sammy, you can have Overcharging Black Knights running around.

That forces you to take Special Characters again. Not thats a bad thing you know. I know Ravenwing have Jink, but they pay for that being more expensive than all the rest of the SM bikers. Just a shame that our "Chapter Trait" is useless for Ravenwing. The morale loses is useless, even taking squads of 6.

But ey. The Ravenwing Liutenaunt on a Land Speeders? Thats really, really cool. A little depry to see him with a sword on a land speder, but still cool.

Well isn't Sammy the only Company Master option, or HQ in general other than the Lieutenants? Sure there used to be Chaplains and Librarians on Bikes, but No Model, No Rules. So RW will likely always have Sammy in the list. Hopefully there is something more in the book for them, because RW is the only part of the army I think I still have models for. Maybe I'll expand on them after BA.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Warlord in Terminator Armor + Overcharged Lion's Roar + Huntsmen + WoTDA = Turn 1 Character Snipe

come on now. Absolute best case scenario is 8 wounds, and that's being able to DS within 12" of him, firing both guns at a -1 to hit, hitting all 4 shots, wounding on both bolter shots, and both plasma shots, and their character not being able to save anything. You might get a a few low wound characters with that 1 trick pony, but you've taken that relic over many other likely better relics, spent CPs and took a lackluster warlord trait that you may or may not even be able to make use of. Pass.

Sure not ideal but you can do 6 wounds with just the Plasma part. Also Im just trying to work with in the limited confines of your own army. You're the one that limited yourself to Deathwing.

I'm just initially disappointed that's all. I play just about pure Deathwing supported by 3 Ravenwing flyers. It's pretty fluffy and has been pretty good in the games i've played but it's DW, your always outnumbered and need a little luck to pull off some wins so I was hoping for a little bit of help for us purists. As Galas points out, Grim resolve, by the article looks like a nerf to DW unless it's a typo, and the re-roll of 1's will almost never apply to my army (or Ravenwing) as I am always moving my terminators either closer to the opponent to get into CC or away to avoid it depending on who i'm fighting.

Having said that, this is, for the most part a fairly small bit of info. We've now probably seen most of the the DA specific strategems, but relics, warlord traits, psychic powers, points, special rules and such can all change the army as well. I'm hoping for a decent strategem or 2 for DW that boosts shooting upon DS or otherwise, the obligatory point cost reductions (like power fists) that we've seen in the SM codex, maybe some DW/Knights specific ones. Some decent Psychic powers, those 2 spoiled I don't believe are very good, and some cool relics. I'd love a unique Assault cannon, but even more than that, I want to see our 3 banners come back and be really good. The FnP one was cool, but I wanted the standard of devastation to work on terms back when Storm Bolters only had 2 shots, of course it didn't. Also would be nice for DW to count as troops under certain circumstances or warlords as done before.

bobafett012 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Warlord in Terminator Armor + Overcharged Lion's Roar + Huntsmen + WoTDA = Turn 1 Character Snipe

come on now. Absolute best case scenario is 8 wounds, and that's being able to DS within 12" of him, firing both guns at a -1 to hit, hitting all 4 shots, wounding on both bolter shots, and both plasma shots, and their character not being able to save anything. You might get a a few low wound characters with that 1 trick pony, but you've taken that relic over many other likely better relics, spent CPs and took a lackluster warlord trait that you may or may not even be able to make use of. Pass.

Sure not ideal but you can do 6 wounds with just the Plasma part. Also Im just trying to work with in the limited confines of your own army. You're the one that limited yourself to Deathwing.

I'm just initially disappointed that's all. I play just about pure Deathwing supported by 3 Ravenwing flyers. It's pretty fluffy and has been pretty good in the games i've played but it's DW, your always outnumbered and need a little luck to pull off some wins so I was hoping for a little bit of help for us purists. As Galas points out, Grim resolve, by the article looks like a nerf to DW unless it's a typo, and the re-roll of 1's will almost never apply to my army (or Ravenwing) as I am always moving my terminators either closer to the opponent to get into CC or away to avoid it depending on who i'm fighting.

Having said that, this is, for the most part a fairly small bit of info. We've now probably seen most of the the DA specific strategems, but relics, warlord traits, psychic powers, points, special rules and such can all change the army as well. I'm hoping for a decent strategem or 2 for DW that boosts shooting upon DS or otherwise, the obligatory point cost reductions (like power fists) that we've seen in the SM codex, maybe some DW/Knights specific ones. Some decent Psychic powers, those 2 spoiled I don't believe are very good, and some cool relics. I'd love a unique Assault cannon, but even more than that, I want to see our 3 banners come back and be really good. The FnP one was cool, but I wanted the standard of devastation to work on terms back when Storm Bolters only had 2 shots, of course it didn't. Also would be nice for DW to count as troops under certain circumstances or warlords as done before.

I get it, it just seemed off to give off the impression that this is all lackluster, when its going off one specific build. For running Death/Raven/Greenwings together it seems really good. For Greenwing (now also Primariswing or Hellwing?) in particular this stuff is strong.

Pandabeer wrote:

Kdash wrote:
So, I think the main problem a lot of people are having with this stratagem, is a result of the matched play rules.

At the end of the day, the -vast- majority of games played use the Matched play format (competitive or not), so, as a result, to even use this stratagem you are going to need to spend, at least, a couple of hundred points for a patrol detachment of Wolves (or DA if you’re a SW player). This is simply because of the battleforged rules, and needing to keep each detachment “pure” in order to gain the benefits of each army. Yes, people do play narrative and open play games frequently, but, i would be astounded if the number of games played in those 2 styles comes anywhere close to matching games played using matched play.

Now… If the SW’s got a rule saying something like “1 unit of SW infantry can be included in any Space Marine army and will not have an impact on (or benefit from) the host armies battleforged rules”, it would make things interesting. This would be similar to how Scions work in Astra Militarum, and a way of representing how they were used as “watchful eyes” on the other legions in the Heresy. This would be super cool, fluffy AND make this stratagem actually worth something.

However, without a rule like that, I’m also in the camp of “well, never going to use that”. That is simply because I don’t see the benefits outweighing the cost of a CP (which you’ll be limited on anyway if you have to take a patrol detachment) and the potential cost of 2 wounds on my characters. Sure, it’d benefit the SW model if/when it gets to combat, but as the DA want to be more about shooting right now….

Sure, it’s kinda fluffy, but, currently, I put this stratagem in the same basket as the Admech Scryerskull stratagem…

Well, it definitely got me thinking though. I'm a main SW player and the first thing I came up with that would complement them rather nicely is an Outrider detachment consisting of Sammael on Jetbike (receives buff from stratagem) + Ravenwing Bikers/ Black Knights (Wolves like to play aggressively and these guys are the same). Then take Arjac or Logan (to receive the Stratagem buffs) + your normal SW forces. Don't know how competitive it's gonna be but it sounds fun as hell to me. I'm not normally not too much into DA but I love their models so this would be a perfect excuse to get a small complementary force of them.

Edit: Meh, I just remembered that Sammael isn't infantry so he's not eligible... bummer

Yeah, tricky bit will be finding the right DA character to use it on. However, i do agree with where you are coming from. This is likely to be better for a SW main player, rather than a DA player imo.

changemod wrote:
You can now use a stratagem to fill your opponent's hive tyrant with an intense desire to protect the secrets of the fallen.

Just because the Dark Angels think someone holds a clue to the whereabouts of the Fallen doesn't mean that it's correct... but it won't stop the Dark Angels from putting the work into capturing them.

 Aesthete wrote:

changemod wrote:
You can now use a stratagem to fill your opponent's hive tyrant with an intense desire to protect the secrets of the fallen.

Just because the Dark Angels think someone holds a clue to the whereabouts of the Fallen doesn't mean that it's correct... but it won't stop the Dark Angels from putting the work into capturing them.

As stated above, that stratagem requires selecting an Infantry Character in the opponent's army. So no hive tyrants potentially 'hiding' secrets.

Mchaagen wrote:

 Aesthete wrote:

changemod wrote:
You can now use a stratagem to fill your opponent's hive tyrant with an intense desire to protect the secrets of the fallen.

Just because the Dark Angels think someone holds a clue to the whereabouts of the Fallen doesn't mean that it's correct... but it won't stop the Dark Angels from putting the work into capturing them.

As stated above, that stratagem requires selecting an Infantry Character in the opponent's army. So no hive tyrants potentially 'hiding' secrets.

No no no the tyrants don't collude with the Fallen they leave that to the tyranid primes.

So, couple of things i take from that article...

Aversion and Fortress of Shields is going to keep your Knights alive for a long time against pretty much anything in combat.

You're going to see a 10 man helblaster squad + Primaris Ancient in every list.

The Ravenwing Lieutenant in landspeeder looks very very good, when used as a base of a Ravenwing set of units.

Huntsman, is alright, though i'm not enjoying the amount of armies that can now take sniper warlords. However, the relic feels lackluster. I suppose it means you can now advance and fire with it, but, i'd rather not kill my own characters with hit rolls of 2. If it was 3 damage base, then, maybe? Reserving judgement until we see the other relics.

Mind Wipe, is interesting, but, it's 18" range and you're going to need a couple of turns to stack it. On a cast of 7+ AND requiring a ld rolloff, you're not likely to stack it much. And, if you're in 18" range of the character for 2 turns anyway, you're either dead, or have already killed the target.

Trephination, is like the Eldar power i guess. There are ways to 1 shot BobbyG with the power, but, it requires so much investment in points - even then, it requires a massive amount of luck to do more than 4-5 wounds.

Curious as to what the "Inner Circle" ability is.

I also agree with people's views on Grim Resolve. It's pretty much a pure Greenwing buff, as the rest of the units will always be moving/stuck in combat and not shooting.

Hunt the Fallen is ok, i guess, but, not overly practical in my view. Infantry characters are likely going to be behind screening units, so, you're not likely going to be getting charges off against them anyway - especially armies that can stack defensive lines.

All this could be wrong too, as we don't have the full picture - but they are my first thoughts. I've also noticed that they haven't used any wording to hint at points changes, like they have in previous articles, so i hope that it is just something that has been left out due to word count etc.

I am extremely confident we'll see rules for Ravenwing and Deathwing separate from Grim Resolve. We saw it in the index, we'll see it here.

Eagerly waiting.

Grim Resolve: Great for a gunline army, not so great for anything else due to ATSKNF, I like it though.

Weapons from the Dark Age: Very Very good, combined with the above especially, also encourages Gunline.

Hunt the Fallen: now THIS is what a fluffy strat should look like, not amazing but I like it, opponent will have to make sure they bubble wrap that character very well if DW are teleporting in.

Fortress of Shields: This is basically only for DW Knights, they are better than TH/SS termies anyway so I would always take them instead, very good trait to help that Deepstriking Knight Unit.

Inner Circle: Should not be a Strat, all Dreads/Land raiders and chracters should be able to take this trait for a few points anyway, probably only will be used on a Land Raider crusader for RR goodness next to Belial, otherwise I dont really see the point.

No Escape and Tactical precision: as long as I can take a luitenant on a bike, this is good, the land speeder is pretty good but can be shot (same as sammy) so I am not a fan of these abilities if I can only take them on a land speeder.

Huntsman: Kind of meh, the second part of the ability can be good, situational.

Brilliant Strategist: Pure awsomesauce, I can see this always being of some use.

Lions Roar: I like it but not because of the profile, because of the fluff, now all they need to do is let Dark Angels take Plasma Repeaters or Blasters instead of a Plasma gun to further cement the old tech vibe (remember Dark Angels dont prefer plasma, they just maintain a lot of old tech, this is represented by Plasma cannons originally for tac squads, now its plasma everywhere).

Mind Wipe: This should be a flat -1 to WS/BS till the end of the next turn, this ability is kind of meh, but I still like it.

Trephination: this sucks, average is 7, almost everything in the game has 7 or better, will likely never take.

Cataphractii and Tartoros: About time, Dark Angels and Chaos are the factions that should have had these first, now just give these to chaos !

On the whole pretty good so far

 FirePainter wrote:
No no no the tyrants don't collude with the Fallen they leave that to the tyranid primes.

I'm not debating whether the stratagem makes sense in the setting for certain factions here. Just pointing out that it is 'Infantry Character' only.

I have a Loyalist Biker army... I'm hoping some Ravenwing options will have me turn Traitor... I mean stay loyal.

Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.

So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.

 Prodigalson wrote:


Britlliant Strategist is also a solid ability. Take 6 command points and you really have 8, get 9, you have 12 and a free re-roll.

Unfortunately that isn't how Brilliant Strategist works. You don't roll for each command point spent, you roll once each time you use a Strategem. So if you have 6 CP and use a 1CP, a 2CP, and a 3CP strat, you'll get 1CP refunded on average.

 axisofentropy wrote:


Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.

So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.

I am hoping the same, this does also buff Forge World Dreads mind you, so a Lolviathan or Doreto dread near Bobliel would be pretty good?

 Formosa wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:


Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.

So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.

I am hoping the same, this does also buff Forge World Dreads mind you, so a Lolviathan or Doreto dread near Bobliel would be pretty good?

Why wouldnt it? They get <Chapter>

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:


Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.

So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.

I am hoping the same, this does also buff Forge World Dreads mind you, so a Lolviathan or Doreto dread near Bobliel would be pretty good?

Why wouldnt it? They get <Chapter>

You misunderstand, I am say that "that would be pretty good?" its a question on whether it would be good or not, I think it would though.

 Formosa wrote:

Inner Circle: Should not be a Strat, all Dreads/Land raiders and chracters should be able to take this trait for a few points anyway, probably only will be used on a Land Raider crusader for RR goodness next to Belial, otherwise I dont really see the point.

No Escape and Tactical precision: as long as I can take a luitenant on a bike, this is good, the land speeder is pretty good but can be shot (same as sammy) so I am not a fan of these abilities if I can only take them on a land speeder.

Inner Circle stratagem refers to them getting the Inner Circle ability listed on page 74 - so i presume it is a separate ability that some other units already have access to. This just further buffs some other units. Currently, i'd hazard a guess at it being something that Deathwing models have access to.

Good point on the landspeeder thing. Chances are it'll lose the Character keyword, which i forgot about, so that could make it super risky.

 Formosa wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:


Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.

So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.

I am hoping the same, this does also buff Forge World Dreads mind you, so a Lolviathan or Doreto dread near Bobliel would be pretty good?

Why wouldnt it? They get <Chapter>

You misunderstand, I am say that "that would be pretty good?" its a question on whether it would be good or not, I think it would though.

AH, of course, my bad! Reading too much at once. The Plasma Doreto would be really good next to Belial and combined with the WotDA Strat. 5 Plasma Shots doing 4 Damage a piece on Overcharge and with the Strat, yes please.

Kdash wrote:

Yeah, tricky bit will be finding the right DA character to use it on. However, i do agree with where you are coming from. This is likely to be better for a SW main player, rather than a DA player imo.

As a SW main player I like this strategem a lot and agree it will add a lot to my army while I wait on my Codex. It gives me a reason to splash Dark Angels so I can get some notably buffed hellblasters, they are far better suited to the DA rules. I’ll be pairing up a jump pack wolf priest and jump pack Interrogator-Chaplain to snag that S10 power fist.

Wouldn't venerable dreadnoughts have the "Deathwing" rule tho?

 BassDrum wrote:
Wouldn't venerable dreadnoughts have the "Deathwing" rule tho?

who knows. Same with Contemptors. One would they they would have it base, but there is no guarantee.

I hope DWK can take the new termie armors. 6" DWk could be useful

That won't happen - they'll be a completely different unit.

Heh, nice to see they're just reissuing the old Sammael landspeeder as a Primaris model. I have one unassembled, now I just have to decide if I want to continue with it for Sam or go with the update.

 frightnight wrote:
Heh, nice to see they're just reissuing the old Sammael landspeeder as a Primaris model. I have one unassembled, now I just have to decide if I want to continue with it for Sam or go with the update.

Not Primaris. Just normal marine lieutenants, since 8th brought those back. (I don't remember if they were an anything but the old Rogue Trader list)

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Yeah, tricky bit will be finding the right DA character to use it on. However, i do agree with where you are coming from. This is likely to be better for a SW main player, rather than a DA player imo.

As a SW main player I like this strategem a lot and agree it will add a lot to my army while I wait on my Codex. It gives me a reason to splash Dark Angels so I can get some notably buffed hellblasters, they are far better suited to the DA rules. I’ll be pairing up a jump pack wolf priest and jump pack Interrogator-Chaplain to snag that S10 power fist.

This is brilliant!! I might do this as well!!