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 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm wondering about the Azrael blob myself, like maybe that build is a trap or something. I'm just not sure what to replace it with. Ravenwing are okay-ish, but like most bikes are too fragile vs. most things for their points. With the bikes you have the mobility to grab objectives, but no staying power to actually hold those objectives. With the Azzy deathball, you lack mobility, but you do have some staying power and a lot of firepower. The problem with it is that it is very one-dimensional and your opponent will know exactly what it does and probably good ways to limit its effectiveness. Hence why I'm saying it might be a trap. The more I try listbuilding, the more I'm considering just running more Knights and gradually replacing the DA portions of my lists...

Hopefully Chapter Approved will fix some of the problems Marines in general have. Our units are too expensive for what they do, compared to other armies. I'm just starting to lose faith a little, after my last tournament performance with Dark Angels was less than stellar. I'm still going to play in a GT with them in a couple of weeks, so we'll see what happens.

After monitroring different tournament results i noticed that mostly its ravenwing list that perform well, the 3 talon 2 landspeeder combo.
Aaron Wisch has a very interesting list and it seems like it is the most you can get out of DA.
I believe blood angels smash captains and plasma inceptors can take down any heavy threat, while other part of his list does great job at horde killing as well as being mobile.

And with clever positioning, character land speeders should always be covered by other units.

As for azrael blob, while it can sit on an objective for the entire game, when playing against horde armies i noticed that its almost impossible to get a hold of any other objective. When playing against tyranids, deathguard, imperial guard, you just dont have enough bodies and eventually you get cornered, or maybe its just me doing something wrong.

I think ill try running Aaron Wish's list and check how it does in our meta

I am also becoming more inclined to think the Az blob is a trap. I think the key things for DA to leverage are plas, Dark Talons and our 3 good speeders (Sableclaw, TM, & Darkshroud). I think Aaron Wish's list does that really well and I think the Slamtallion compliments the fairly aggressive nature of those two DA detatchments too.

Although it would be fairly low on CP, I wouldn't mind trying out that list but switching the BA detatchment for Knight. Probably a House Raven Castellan, and then making the main DA detachment a battalion with Master & LT w JPs and THs, 3x scouts, 5 plas Inceptors, Darkshroud.

The issue with that list would be that it would be fairly hard to screen the Castellan from smash captains and the like so maybe a Gallant would be a better option. A Gallant with an Ironstorm missile pod would also give you enough points spare to bump the Master & LT back up to Sableclaw and a TM

 Brother Payne wrote:
I am also becoming more inclined to think the Az blob is a trap. I think the key things for DA to leverage are plas, Dark Talons and our 3 good speeders (Sableclaw, TM, & Darkshroud). I think Aaron Wish's list does that really well and I think the Slamtallion compliments the fairly aggressive nature of those two DA detatchments too.

Although it would be fairly low on CP, I wouldn't mind trying out that list but switching the BA detatchment for Knight. Probably a House Raven Castellan, and then making the main DA detachment a battalion with Master & LT w JPs and THs, 3x scouts, 5 plas Inceptors, Darkshroud.

The issue with that list would be that it would be fairly hard to screen the Castellan from smash captains and the like so maybe a Gallant would be a better option. A Gallant with an Ironstorm missile pod would also give you enough points spare to bump the Master & LT back up to Sableclaw and a TM

Knights might work, but thats alot of points that may go down turn one. BA captains on the other hand will be safe until you drop them, by that time dark talons will clear screens. With dark talons you can deploy your army far away from enemy shooting and possibly even survive turn one without critical losses.

Yeah that's also true. I think Aaron's list is likely to be better, but wouldn't mind giving it a shot anyway

Got a game in last night with my planned GT list vs. my friend's Imperial Soup list. My list was the following:

My opponent's list was the following:

This was my first game facing the Adeptus Custodes. We played one of the new, recently updated ITC missions (which is why neither one of us had any Mortars in our infantry squads). He used some pregame stratagems as he deployed, including Victor of the Blood Games on both of his Shield-Captains, and deepstriking both units of Golden Jetbikes. Since my Aquila bearer was already on the board, I got 3 CP when he used those strats, making up for the 3 I spent pre-game (1 for Aquila, 1 for Exalted Court, 1 for Heirlooms). Our deployment map was the pointy Dawn of War one. I chose the Old School, Headhunter, and Marked for Death secondaries (MFD: both jetbike units, and two of the Custodian Guard units), and my opponent chose Old School, Recon, and Titan Slayer. I deployed my Azrael blob near the middle, with my Knight next to it. I put Guard squads near the flanks to prevent deep strike shenanigans, and deployed my Scouts in the middle of the table. My opponent put his Custodian Guard in some buildings, and deployed his own Guardsmen pretty much at the front edge of his deployment zone, with the jetbikes and Allarus captain deep striking in. I won the roll-off to go first, but my opponent siezed the initiative. He basically just moved up the board and consolidated two of his Guardsmen squads into a single one. His BT Captain got an early charge into my melee Scouts, but didn't manage to drop all of them, so he killed no units on the first turn. On my turn, I advanced the Knight toward one unit of Custodian Guard that had jumped on one of the midfield objectives. My Dark Talon flew over and dropped the stasis bomb on the big Guardsmen squad, but only killed 3 models due to poor rolling. My Scout Bikes moved up the board toward midfield objectives, and I slowly started to move the Azrael blob forward as well, advancing with the Darkshroud to give it the 4++ save from Jink. In my shooting phase, I managed to wax the big Guardsmen squad, but that was about it. My Knight used Full Tilt to charge the Custodes despite having advanced, and thanks to some lucky damage rolls (my opponent only failed 3 invul saves), managed to wipe the squad with his stompy feet. I got 6 points in that turn, so I was off to a good start. On turn 2, both Jetbike squads came in, as well as the Allarus captain. My opponent managed to plink 3 wounds off of the Knight with his Hurricane Bolters, but other than that his shooting phase was uneventful. He charged the Knight with both Jetbike units, but only one made it in, thankfully. A squad of Custodian Guard and the Jetbike Captain charged one of my Hellblaster squads, but they only killed 3 of them thanks to Azrael's 4++ bubble. However, one Hellblaster was wrapped, which prevented the unit from falling back. The BT captain charged and murdered one of my units of Scout Bikers. The Knight, thanks to its relic Armor, managed to only take 10 wounds, but it only killed 2 of the bikes in return, and that was only because I burned 3 CP for the House Terryn "Fight Again" stratagem. 4++ saves on those bikes are brutal! The surviving bikers surrounded the Knight to prevent it from falling back as well. On my turn, I had my Dark Talon shoot at the unengaged jetbikes with its rift cannon, but only managed to do 3 wounds to one (failed the Vortex roll). It did mulch the remaining squad of Catachan guardsmen, though, with its Hurricane Bolters, except for one single guy, who my opponent auto-passed morale for since he held an objective. My unengaged Hellblasters had no targets, so they just kind of hung around Azrael and the banner. My second unit of Scout Bikers grabbed an objective. Azrael himself charged the Jetbike Captain, but only managed to do 2 wounds. He took none in return, though, as the Captain swung into the Hellblasters. I even used Honor the Chapter on Azrael, but he failed to get any damage through the 3++ save. 1 Hellblaster hung on and survived the Custodes' swings. The BT captain consolidated into one of my Vostroyan squads, who punched back and got a couple of wounds through the armor save. On my next turn, I ordered those Guardsmen to shoot in combat (thanks to Vostroyan order), doing another unsaved wound. I didn't want to fall back right there, because that would have left my Aquila bearer wide open to be ganked. Turn 3 saw the Knight finally go down once the second bike unit charged it, but it did manage to get off a round of attacks with the stratagem that allows it to fight one more time if it doesn't explode (which it didn't). That killed 2 of the bikes from that unit. Before charging the Knight, those bikers waxed one of my Guardsmen squads, and the survivors of the other squad fell back from the Knight and dropped my non-Aquila commander. The BT captain swung at the Guardsmen he was stuck in with, but only managed to kill 2 of them due to poor wound rolls. They didn't hurt him back, though. On my turn I charged a unit of Scouts into that captain, dropping him to 1 wound, but he turned around and wiped them out in one round of combat. The Guardsmen got revenge by killing him in their fight phase. A lot of what happened near Azrael I have forgotten what turn it happened, but I do know that the first Hellblaster squad went down, Azrael managed to do a couple more wounds to that captain, and then he fell back, allowing my second Hellblaster squad to kill both him and the Custodian Guard unit thanks to Weapons from the Dark Age. The surviving Jetbikes then came in and mowed down some Hellblasters in combat, and they even waxed my Guard squad, who, after killing the Marine captain, jumped up to the second floor of the ruins to put some FRFSRF on the Custodes (doing a couple of wounds before the Hellblasters finished the job). The jetbikes killed all but two of the Hellblasters, and Azrael. My Dark Talon finished off one Jetbike squad, and then another on the final turn of the game (we went to turn 6). In the end, I only had the Ancient, the Aquila commander, the Dark Talon, the Darkshroud, 1 Hellblaster, and one of my Scout Bike units left (which got me Linebreaker for my Old School). My opponent had both of his Guard commanders, one unit of Custodian Guard, his Allarus Shield-Captain, and I think he still had that lone survivor of the Guard squad from before. I won the game 26-23, and only because I played the objectives hard. I also made a lot of saves that kept my Knight alive longer (at one point I had 7 5+ saves to make vs. the Jetbikes, and I made 6/7 of them). I also had some downright crappy rolls in there too, so dice luck was probably about average for both players. My MVP was probably the Dark Talon, as it managed to harass a lot of stuff and very much kept me in the game by killing a few key models and units here and there.

My takeaways from the game:
-The new ITC missions and secondaries are awesome! The secondaries actually feel easier to score now. Technically the missions themselves haven't dropped yet, but the revamped secondaries are great.
-Knight Gallants make a great distraction that can actually kill stuff. Without it, I would have been eating jetbike charges on Azrael and friends a lot earlier. Landstrider is a great choice of trait for it, and the Armor of the Sainted Ion is pretty good too if you are facing opponents with good AP on their melee weapons.
-While I said earlier that the Azrael gunline is a trap build, it can be a daunting prospect for many opponents. The banner guy is really, really good, and punishes your opponent for shooting your Hellblasters, while Azrael himself can make anyone who charges the blob regret it due to being fairly strong in CC. Just don't do what I tend to do and leave his cheese hanging out in the wind after combat, because he can and will get crushed by strong CC enemies, and then there go your good buffs. The downside of the gunline is that it is fairly static, and once it does get locked up it struggles to do much of anything.
-I know I've said it several times before, but Scout Bikes are an awesome, reasonably cheap, mobile unit for grabbing objectives, and they have decent horde-clearing firepower as well. Ravenwing are more durable, but not that much, and they have less firepower and cost more.
-It's a sad reality of most current tournament metas (especially at the big tournaments), but it really is necessary to bring a cheap AM battalion for the Aquila, as CP regeneration is a hugely powerful mechanic. The guardsmen have the additional benefit of being a good cheap screen unit. Soup is likely here to stay.

How can you have 2 warlord traits?

Other topic:
Now that the Dark Talon is 200 Points, do you guys think the Nephilim with Avenger Mega Bolter has the edge again?

Aeri wrote:
How can you have 2 warlord traits?

Other topic:
Now that the Dark Talon is 200 Points, do you guys think the Nephilim with Avenger Mega Bolter has the edge again?

I have both and the answer is, sadly, no. Nephilim are nice, but that Warp gun is just so much value for the points.

Aeri wrote:
How can you have 2 warlord traits?

Imperial Knights have a stratagem that you can use (Exalted Court) to make a Knight a character and give them a Warlord Trait. They only count as the Warlord for purpose of that trait.

Other topic:
Now that the Dark Talon is 200 Points, do you guys think the Nephilim with Avenger Mega Bolter has the edge again?

Not really. Dark Talon still does so much more between the Hurricane Bolters, Rift Cannon, and Stasis Bomb. Plus it can hover if needed.

I just got back from a 5-round GT this weekend. I ran an Imperial Soup list that was mainly Dark Angels (about 70% of my list). The event used the new and improved ITC missions and secondaries. Here is the list I ran:

My first game was against a Guard list with a Knight Castellan allied in, but oddly enough no BA Slam Captains. We got the pointy version of Hammer & Anvil deployment, which considering our lists was a huge advantage to my opponent. The only things I managed to completely kill were 2 Hellhounds, which due to extremely sloppy play exploded right next to my Dark Talon, killing it after it fired its shots. I ultimately played just plain sloppy and way too conservatively, hence why I got absolutely crushed. Game 2 was against an inexperienced player running a very soft Grey Knights list. I won, but due to my opponent's inexperience we only got to turn 4. To be fair, the terrain helped her as well, as she was able to mostly hide stuff from my Knight, but only after it smashed a Dreadknight and a Razorback. My third opponent was running 3 Knights (a Castellan, Crusader, and Cerastus Lancer) along with a battalion of AdMech and an Imperial Bastion fortification. It was a wild game, with my Knight barely surviving being charged by the Lancer and then falling back so the Hellblasters could soften it up. It then charged back in and finished the job, and on the following turn it died to overwatch from the Crusader. I managed to play the objectives and very nearly managed to get a draw, but unfortunately due to an unlucky morale check on a Scout unit on the last turn I ended up losing by 2 points. My opponent was great, and it really was one of the best games of Warhammer I've ever played. Game 4 had me facing pure Alpha Legion CSM. I ended up going second, but due to extreme luck I weathered the storm and managed to give much better than I got that turn (my opponent's melta shots mostly just failed to wound the Knight, although the first one did 6 wounds). On my first turn, I charged the Knight into a unit of Bikes, a Jump Sorcerer, and 2 Princes. I used the happy feet to mash the Sorcerer and all the Bikers, somehow managed to make every save vs. the Princes (Armor of the Sainted Ion helped a lot here), and then popped the House Terryn strat to fight again. Both princes were wounded by my stomping feet, but neither were killed, that is until I Death Gripped one of them. My opponent chose to drop his Oblits near Azrael and friends instead of going after the Knight and he left the Prince in combat with it, and the results were fairly predictable in that matchup. I ended up winning fairly decisively, but it was a pretty good game that could have gone either way. I faced Drukhari in game 5, and was well on my way to getting absolutely pasted, but due to a real-life emergency my opponent had to concede mid-game, so I ended up with a win that I really didn't earn.

I ended up going 3-2, and was the top Dark Angels player (out of 3). I had a hell of a good time, and am looking forward to playing more GTs in the future. Prize support was awesome (everyone got a swag bag with some free stuff, and everyone who lost their first game got a free Scibor model of their choice) and the event itself was very well-run, with both my club and 2 others contributing terrain for it. Met a lot of great people, and just overall had a great time with the event. I look forward to going back next year.

Anyway, as far as my list and everything goes, here are my takeaways:
-The problem with the Azrael blob is that it is very slow moving, and that is a huge problem considering most gunline armies have longer ranged guns than Hellblasters do. The first game really empnasized this. That said, if it does get into rapid-fire range it will absolutely murder stuff, as long as it doesn't have -1 to hit or something. Weapons of the Dark Age may be the best stratagem in the Dark Angels codex, with Intractable coming in second (was absolutely clutch in game 4 for me).
-Knights are incredibly strong, even as an add-in to a list like I was running. My Gallant put in work in nearly every game. Of course, half the lists at the event had Knights of some kind in them, with several that had 3 or more. Knights are tricky for Dark Angels to handle, as the Hellblasters do struggle due to T8 and the invulnerable saves.
-Scout Bikes are a great cheap objective grabber unit. They don't last long if your opponent points any kind of serious weapon at them (Drukhari Disintegrators hurt them bad...), but they get a fair amount of shots for how cheap they are. I say this every time, but just about every Marine list should have some Scout Bikes.
-Dark Talons are absolutely amazeballs. Mine put in work in nearly every game. If I had more than 1 I would totally run more.
-If you run a Guard CP battery, make them Vostroyan. They get a great stratagem, a great unique order, and their regimental doctrine is really solid for a screen unit, allowing them to put in more work than most other regiments. The combo of combining their squads, using the Vostroyan strat, FRFSRF, and perhaps Vengeance for Cadia (if facing Chaos) can make them punch well above their weight. Don't treat your guardsmen as expendable; they are good objective holders and can potentially do things on offense if your opponent underestimates them and brings the party to you.
-Always, always, always take the Ancient if you run the Azrael blob. This thing was money in several of my games. Chapter Ancient really isn't necessary if you have Azrael unless -1 to hit is very prevalent in your meta.

thanks for the nice write up, I just ordered a Styrix so lets hope I can get some similar results

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just got back from a 5-round GT this weekend. I ran an Imperial Soup list that was mainly Dark Angels (about 70% of my list). The event used the new and improved ITC missions and secondaries.

Heh, I was there as well as the one brave necron player to face down all the imperial nastiness. Your list was one of the ones I was hoping to play against to see it run through it's paces and see what I wanted to apply to my own DA.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just got back from a 5-round GT this weekend. I ran an Imperial Soup list that was mainly Dark Angels (about 70% of my list). The event used the new and improved ITC missions and secondaries.

Heh, I was there as well as the one brave necron player to face down all the imperial nastiness. Your list was one of the ones I was hoping to play against to see it run through it's paces and see what I wanted to apply to my own DA.

I saw your army. I would have enjoyed the challenge of facing it, as I haven't had many games against Necrons since their codex dropped, and none at all with my Dark Angels (I've faced them twice with my Tau).

 ZergSmasher wrote:

-The problem with the Azrael blob is that it is very slow moving, and that is a huge problem considering most gunline armies have longer ranged guns than Hellblasters do. The first game really empnasized this. That said, if it does get into rapid-fire range it will absolutely murder stuff, as long as it doesn't have -1 to hit or something. Weapons of the Dark Age may be the best stratagem in the Dark Angels codex, with Intractable coming in second (was absolutely clutch in game 4 for me).

That's issue for gunlines in general. You really need some fast objective grappers. Yesterday my orks were blown to pieces but I still won because the IG stayed put in his DZ first 3 turns more or less(apart from pair of hellhounds and sentinel). With his army not that he even could move much with that army.

-If you run a Guard CP battery, make them Vostroyan. They get a great stratagem, a great unique order, and their regimental doctrine is really solid for a screen unit, allowing them to put in more work than most other regiments. The combo of combining their squads, using the Vostroyan strat, FRFSRF, and perhaps Vengeance for Cadia (if facing Chaos) can make them punch well above their weight. Don't treat your guardsmen as expendable; they are good objective holders and can potentially do things on offense if your opponent underestimates them and brings the party to you.

Vengeance for Cadia is a) cadian model only b) affects, funnily enough, cadian units only. Thus if you are using Vostroyan not only you can't field it easily but if you do by taking up cadian character(thus losing vostroyan regimental doctrine) it only affects any CADIAN units you might have. So no way whatsoever to combine vostroyan effects with vengeance for cadian effects. You could have vostroyan and cadian detachments but that's not quite the same.

Vengeance for Cadia only mentions Cadia in the name of the strategem. Otherwise it specifically mentions a Astra Militarium unit as the target, not a Cadian unit.

Ah sorry mistook that for the relic. Too much term cadia running around(not to mention never have had chance to use that strategem. Relic yes, strategem no)

I'm expecting a significant meta shift in the near future, with Knights getting a huge whack, and the subsequent release of Orks is going to lead towards a swing back to Hordes owning the tables. Got me thinking of a list I'd like to test out against such things.

BN and Spearhead
Azrael
Lt. w/ RHeavan Fall Blade/Plasma Pistol
Lt. w/ MC Bolter
10 Intercessors
10 Intercessors
5 Sniper Scouts
5 Sniper Scouts
Darkshourd
10 Hellblasters
Rapier w/ Heavy Bolters
Rapier w/ Heavy Bolters
Rapier w/ Quad Mortars
Leviathan w/ 2 Storm Cannons
Whirlwind Hyperios

If hordes become the new meta, I'll definitely start actually running my Repulsor. That thing does terrible, terrible things to hordes, especially if it can get rerolls (like being next to Azrael).

That may fair well against hordes as far as shooting goes but it looks like your only mobility is the dark shroud and whirlwind!

I'm definitely leaning towards mobility being key to making Dark Angels work well. I will be running the "same old Azrael gunline" tomorrow in a tournament just because I don't want to have to try to learn to operate a new list, but in future I'm probably going to lean more towards using Sammael and a Talonmaster, at least 2 Dark Talons, some plasma Inceptors and/or Black Knights, and possibly some Space Wolf allies (Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves, possibly a unit of Wulfen outflanking, all in a Supreme Command detachment). The Azrael gunline barely works (sort of), but it is a very one-dimensional list and it auto-loses against any kind of REAL gunline (like what Guard Artillery or Tau can do) due to the relatively short range of Hellblasters and almost complete lack of mobility.

I've seen a lot of lists where a biker Sergeant is equipped with a Combi-Plasma, but in my codex he can only take weapons from melee or pistol list. Am I missing something?

 Crimson_ wrote:
I've seen a lot of lists where a biker Sergeant is equipped with a Combi-Plasma, but in my codex he can only take weapons from melee or pistol list. Am I missing something?

The combi-weapons are an Index option, so while they aren't listed in the codex they are still allowed as per GW's FAQ concerning Index wargear and models.

Good to know. Thanks!

This thread is so full of great advice. I'm up to page 20 so I'm
not sure if it's been addressed yet but here goes.

Which squad is better 3 ravenwing attack bikes with heavy
bolters or 3 inceptors with assault bolters?

Inceptors all the way. It's not even remotely close. Attack Bikes are garbage for their points.

Looks pretty close to me that's why I asked. Attack bikes have better movement (20 if they advance) and twice as many wounds. Does that make up for not having as many s5 attacks?

 Mk X wrote:
Looks pretty close to me that's why I asked. Attack bikes have better movement (20 if they advance) and twice as many wounds. Does that make up for not having as many s5 attacks?

The bikes would advance and then not be able to fire their weapons, and then they only have 3 shots each.

No, Attack Bikes are pretty bad right now.

Speed of the raven would allow them to advance and then fire
the twin bolters and heavy bolters, without penalty and then
they'd be allowed to charge as well. If I'm not mistaken. They'd
end up with 4++ jink saves too.

Bikes can't reach upper floors of terrain and I'd rather use Speed of the Raven on Black Knights

Okay so that's three people who agree attack bikes are no good. I'll go with the assault bolter inceptors instead. I'll use speed of the raven on my warlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey fellas how can I improve my list? The Devs can move and
shoot without concern as the Sargent can negate the penalty
for the heavy bolter. 12 command points should allow for some
hellfire shooting with the Devs when using grim resolve,
Sargent and the cherub. The warlord can use speed of the
raven, get in close and target the enemy warlord with 4 plasma
shots. Hopefully he'll be buffed by Sammael and the TM.


Dark Angels Brigade 1995

HQ
Sammael Sable Claw 216
Talon Master 188
Master Jump Pack MCBG, Relic Blade 114

Troops
5 Scouts Boltguns (x6) 330

Elites
(Warlord - Huntsman) RW Champion Blade of Caliban,
Plasma Talon, Lion's Roar 106
5 DW Knights Watcher in the Dark 230
DW Ancient Lightning Claws 115

FA
RW Dark Shroud Heavy Bolter 138
Inceptors plasma 177
Inceptors bolters 135

HS
5 Devs 4 Boltguns, 1 Heavy Bolter, Armorium Cherub (x3) 240

Don't think you can give the RW Champion the Lion's Roar - so not quite as potent character sniping.