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Devastator Doctrine made Leviathan Dreads with Stormcannon Arrays even spicier. Now we get 30" range cannons at AP-3. Now I wish I had two, but the one I do have is probably an auto-include in my competitive lists.

The extra 3" range on Flamers could lead to some saucy shenanigans, like maybe putting some Flamer Vets in a Drop Pod for turn 1 horde-clearing. Not sure it's worth the points though. Storm Bolters are probably just as good and don't need the range bonus (they really want Tactical Doctrine while the army as a whole wants Devastator).

Other units that I think have won big are the planes and the character speeders. Dark Talons can hit things with their Rift Cannons at 24" (and rapid fire their Hurricane Bolters at 15" for what it's worth), and Nephys heavy weapons benefit nicely with Dev Doctrine for an extra -1 AP. The extra range and AP will really buff Talonmasters and Sableclaw too. Plus Talonmasters have some new relics and stuff they can use, although I hate to give up the Heavenfall Blade on them.

With the added range, the Azrael Hellblaster Gunline might have new life, especially since we can now add Lazarus and his protection from mortal wounds. Still not sure but what it's kind of a trap build, but we'll have to see. 36" range means we can at least match ranges with Tau heavies rather than have them sit out of range and knock Hellblasters over (avoiding retaliation from the banner).

The Ravenwing pregame move warlord trait opens up an interesting tactical option. As I understand it, it allows you to move a character and another unit AFTER any roll to seize or anything, so by time you make this move you know 100% who's going first. Meaning you can move your Black Knights up aggressively for a turn 1 shooting and charge if you are first, or move them behind some terrain if going second. Perhaps kind of obvious but this absolutely makes RWBK playable.

Just my 2 cents on some things we'll be able to do better with the stuff from this book. Other people have already talked a bit about the RW + DW combo and strat, and I have nothing to add right now. All I know is, it's a good time to be a Son of the Lion.

For those wandering what the points costs of Lazarus are:



This is seriously good!

He seems pretty baller at that cost. Probably an auto-include for gunline-style lists, but too slow to keep up with mobile Ravenwing lists.

His aura working against all mortal wounds and not just pyskers etc definitely makes it a viable inclusion, and at a very small increase over a normal primaris master as well.


Also if you build the kit as Lazarus you'll have a spare DA power fist to give to an Intercessor Sgt

The redeemer also suddenly got very interesting for me, at least in a not fully competitive environment.

The extra range benefits all of its guns in a great way.

Even with the new shiny RW/DW warlord traits, I still think that Brilliant Strategist will be necessary due to the thirsty CP nature of the army. I will probably start with the Impeccable Mobility on a Talon Master in addition though.
DW certainly got more resilient though, either through the +1T strat (if tergeted by massed S4 shots), or Transhuman Physiology if hit by the high powered guns. So many things to think about. The hard part is going to be balancing the % of RW/DW/GW in a list. I think when I go GW it will not contain too many RW elements, but not sure how I will load out. I will try a few games with my old marines though, even though I know that Intercessors are just better. i will slowly transition into adding them to my lists.

 bullyboy wrote:
Even with the new shiny RW/DW warlord traits, I still think that Brilliant Strategist will be necessary due to the thirsty CP nature of the army.

I've been experimenting with an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with the Esoteric Law Warlord Trait, and that's been working out fairly well so far. It doesn't have all of the perks of Brilliant Strategist, but has kept my CPs topped up to a decent level.

You lose doctrines though

Aeri wrote:
You lose doctrines though

A single Inquisitor doesnt break doctrines or super-doctrines. They have an explicit rule that allows them to run in "pure" armies.

Yup, they're a great deal as things stand - they don't cause any issues for Doctrines, Sacred Rites or the like, and a minimally kitted Inquisitor can give you a CP farm and the Terrify psychic power that denies Overwatch for around 50 points plus a CP (for a Warlord trait and relic). It's a pretty solid addition to any Imperium army.

I have been running a Deathwing list with Dreadnoughts for a while now so the new releases don't change anything that much. The Doctrines will help some. I am really thinking about taking the Deathwing Warlord trait where you can deny any one Psychic Power. That is strategically speaking crazy as gak.

If anyone is going to run Ravenwing you better have a crap load of CP or its not going to do what you want it to. Which means you get to waste points on models who probably won't do anything but make Ravenwing cool.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I have been running a Deathwing list with Dreadnoughts for a while now so the new releases don't change anything that much. The Doctrines will help some. I am really thinking about taking the Deathwing Warlord trait where you can deny any one Psychic Power. That is strategically speaking crazy as gak.

If anyone is going to run Ravenwing you better have a crap load of CP or its not going to do what you want it to. Which means you get to waste points on models who probably won't do anything but make Ravenwing cool.

This is a problem I hope they address because we cannot run these themed lists and not be at a major disadvantage. Maybe Belial allows a Deathwing Battalion of elites. The obvious downside to this is others would demand similar imagine a Tau elite battalion where they can ignore the need for fire warriors and can instead take foresight marksman or something similar.


As it is. I'm cautiously optimistic that Deathwing will be good I do believe Ravenwing will be competitive especially with minimum squads of intercessors or scouts for a battalion

That's how it used to be. Special character let you do cool stuff. Lysander used to let Imperial Fists run all Terminators like our Deathwing could.

The other side of this is you would have to take the Warlord trait of that character. I think Belial should have the trait from the new book where you ignore wound rolls against you that were a 1,2, or 3. He is notoriously tough and if you combined it with his current rules he would be a beast in close combat.

I am shocked that we didn't get a Ravenwing strategem to let a squad of Ravenwing flank in from the board edges.

 Reivax26 wrote:
That's how it used to be. Special character let you do cool stuff. Lysander used to let Imperial Fists run all Terminators like our Deathwing could.

The other side of this is you would have to take the Warlord trait of that character. I think Belial should have the trait from the new book where you ignore wound rolls against you that were a 1,2, or 3. He is notoriously tough and if you combined it with his current rules he would be a beast in close combat.

I am shocked that we didn't get a Ravenwing strategem to let a squad of Ravenwing flank in from the board edges.

Yep 4th edition Belial who was 130 made Deathwing troops and could take Th/Ss for free was great.

I've been having fun with Sammael in Sableclaw and two Talonmasters. One of the Talonmasters is the Warlord with Impeccable Mobility and Corvus Occulus. The extra range and AP along with Relentless Hunt overcomes the main weaknesses of the weapon load-out of the speeders. I might even add a third Talonmaster...

I just noticed something peculiar in the back of RoTD Deathwing Apothecaries are now fifty points base. This is a twenty point drop from chapter approved

I had a 1k game on Saturday against an Ork player who brought 2 30 man shoota squads, 1 30 man slugga squad, paindoc, Big Mek, Weirdboy, and Boss. There was a big terrain piece in the center of the board and he moved around it. He called it at the end of the 5th. The new super doctrine worked wonders and the new Deathwing Strategems are ridiculous.

The 30 sluggas charged 6 Deathwing Knights being led by Belial and a Storm Shield Thunder Hammer Ancient. I popped the Strategems for +1 toughness, +1 to hit and the one where you get a bonus attack if fighting 10 or more models. 12 of his boys counting the Nob with power klaw swung and I made 3 armor saves and 2 invuls. Then my guys swung back and killed everything in the combat zone. Then during my turn I beat them to death.

List was:
Belial
Lt

2 10 man Tactical squads with triple Plasma
10 scout Snipers

6 Deathwing Knights
DW Ancient with relic banner and the Warlord trait where you deny a Psychic power.

The Snipers killed his paindoc during my first turn. After that the Tactical squads with the Lt standing between them really were the star of the show. I made him come to me and just stood my ground double firing my Bolters and plasma.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I've been having fun with Sammael in Sableclaw and two Talonmasters. One of the Talonmasters is the Warlord with Impeccable Mobility and Corvus Occulus.

What are you using to shield them with? Impulsors?

 Smirrors wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I've been having fun with Sammael in Sableclaw and two Talonmasters. One of the Talonmasters is the Warlord with Impeccable Mobility and Corvus Occulus.

What are you using to shield them with? Impulsors?

Early on I use two lines of infantry (Scouts and then Intercessors), with bikes and Land Speeders for turn 3. Used a Drop Pod as well. Haven't tried an Impulser, but that's a good idea.

I feel like I need the two battalions to get use out of the DA strats so most likely will also have 3 scouts and a unit of infiltrators up front when terrain permits.

For 79pts I think the Impulsor could be a good fit for talon masters as no one really wants to shoot at. It moves 14" so can keep up and for 18pts can have a 4++ to make it a little annoying to get rid of.

Anyone had any luck with using master-crafted weapon on a Talonmaster yet? Seems that a 12-shot -2 d2 assault cannon would be too good to pass up.

Special Issue can't be given to vehicle character.

Maxamato wrote:
Special Issue can't be given to vehicle character.

Plus the Corvus Oculus is hard to pass up on a Talon Master. Pushing another 6" of range onto your guns and the +1 to hit are both so good (particularly when comboed with Impeccable Mobility).

So Sammael for Rerolls Hits
A Talon Master hero of the chapter - Impeccable Mobility
A Talon Master with Corvus Oculus (spread the risk)

Expensive but sounds fun. Need to see how it translates on the table top.

I dont see how it would be bad. I have ran 2 talon masters and sammael for a while now with my ravenwing and never regretted it. Sure they are expensive but they put out so much firepower and are not target able by anything of real threat that they are worth it. The new toys just make them better.

I'm going to be running Sammie a pair of talonmaster With 2 max units of speeders (13 total speeders )

I ran a game this weekend with 15 Tacticals 3 units of 5 each with a plasma cannon, A lieutenant with a power axe and bolter, and a mastelr with a combi-plasma and a relic blade for a battalion. Also 6 black knights.
A vanguard with deathwing Interrogator chaplain 10 deathwing knights, an ancient with the relic banner and claws and, an apothecary.
The second vanguard ran a relic contemptor with two kheres assault cannons and a cyclone missile launcher. A venerable dreadnought with twin lascannon. and 6 deathwing with thunder hammers. A terminator librarian with reroll to hit and wound. and Master in terminator armor with storm shield and Relic blader.


it worked well especially with my turn two 4 inch charge, i brought the chaplain and ancient in 9" away but their auras worked especially when both made their pwn 7" charges. I wiped 4 units of necrons (warriors and two immortals and a lord with scythe.) while my dreadnoughts and plasma cannons picked off fliers. It worked well.

I got a 1k team tournament coming up in 2 weeks. My partner is playing Space Wolves. I have 2 possible options for lists that I want to bring.

Option 1 is Ravenwing. Talonmaster, Darkshroud, 6 man bikers, 5 Black Knights, Ravenwing Apothecary and 3 Typhoon Speeders.

Option 2 is Deathwing. Belial, Ancient with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer with relic banner, 6 Deathwing Knights, 2 Venerable Dreadnought with twin lascannons and close combat weapons, Deredeo with Autocannon battery and atomantic pavaise.

Interested to hear peoples thoughts on the options. I am happy with either one.

Option 1 is definitely more powerful

Ravenwing > Deathwing even with the new stuff. Both together can do some nice combos like the close deep strike strat, but if you only want one or the other, take Ravenwing.

On another note, what are everyone's thoughts about going Brigade with Dark Angels? We've got cheap options in almost every slot; the real question is where do we splurge and take more pricey stuff?