Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sage advice. I can't think of how often there's a character within 12" of where I'm planning to drop, but I have to imagine that use is somewhat situational. If your opponent presents the opportunity, though, that's an easy way to increase your chances of crashing the line early.

Right now I'm thinking Master Strategist is going to be the go to warlord trait, particularly with Azzy. We have a tough time filling out multiple detachments, and command points will be at a premium for us. Getting the extra from Azzy plus the ability to regen a couple during the game will be huge considering how much of the strength of the codex relies on CP usage.

Yes brilliant Strategist will be the go-to unless you need the charge re-rolls.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Right, so on that note, I play pretty much pure Deathwing. I'm considering the merits of the new Deathwing Assault strategem. I'm disappointed it doesn't let us deep strike into combat more reliably, but an extra round of shooting seems pretty useful for clearing away screening troops before Knights Drop in close to the real target.

The problem is the 2/3 CP cost. Since I have so few units, my CP are in short supply - usually 5 with the lists I've been running recently. I like the idea of dropping in a unit of 10 terminators in to clear away the nonsense surrounding a prime target. 8 stormbolters at rapid fire range and 2 assault cannons is a fair bit of firepower (kills about 18 GEQ or 7 MEQ), but is that worth 3 CP? I run a couple units of Knights, so I intend to be shield walling a fair bit. Obviously that ability will be in short supply after spending 3 of my 5 CP on the initial drop. I'm going to give it a few tries, of course, but I can't decide right now if that impressive drop is worth giving up shield wall and choice die rerolls for most of the game.

I also play pure DW, with 3 RW flyers. I agree, Deathwing Assault is very expensive for what your getting imo. Should have been 1/2CP and i'd have been happy. It's not like storm bolters and assault cannons are plasma, or melta weapons. Another thing I believe will work, is don't make Belial your warlord, his warlord trait is godawful, surprise surprise...sigh. Name a terminator libby or DW Ancient your warlord and give him master of maneuver. You could bring them down with your knights, or regular terms, the libby can debuff with aversion, the Banner gives +1 attack and then your knihghts can re-roll charges. I only run a single squad of knights because I feel the regular terms do more work, but I like them none the less, they are just so slow without a deliver system. Maybe i'll think about a Stormraven...

Agreed Belial may never be a good Warlord. A full Deathwing army can make your Deathwing Ancient Warlord for the reroll charge trait. Doesn't have to be HQ! That's not very fluffy tho.

I'll add some consensus ratings to the OP later, starting with Warlord Traits.

Let's try to delve a bit deeper in the topic now, since we have a fair bit of info.

Let's think about the typical matchups and see how a DA list fares, in particular let's focus on those points:

1) How efficent are DA at taking down a Demon Primarch?
2) How efficently can DA stop a melee horde?
3) How efficently can DA clear a screen?
4) How efficently can DA fight against stacked -hit?
5) How efficently can DA clear loads of tanks?
6) How efficently can DA deal with flyers?
7) How efficently can DA protect themselves against 1st turn assault?

For my current army, which is basically 2 units of DWK in LRC, 2 units of 5 (will now be 1 of 10), Azrael, and Belial:

1. Really well if I can catch it. Not so well if I have to gun it down.
2. Exceptionally well. Between the LRCs and DWT, crowd control is not at all a problem. That goes double now that I can drop 3cp to eliminate a huge chunk of guys if necessary.
3. See above. Not a problem.
4. Probably better than most with essentially army-wide hit rerolls.
5. Poorly. I can catch a couple in combat, probably, but Leman Russ spam is bad news.
6. Uh...hope your opponent forgets his Stormravens?
7. I have zero screening units, but I can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. Anything that decides to charge a LRC, is going to eat 10 DWK the next turn. That's no fun for anything.

MilkmanAl wrote:
7. I have zero screening units, but I can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. Anything that decides to charge a LRC, is going to eat 10 DWK the next turn. That's no fun for anything.

Plus, in addition to all those DWK (maximum of 8 since they are 2 spaces each), you can use a CP to let the LR shoot after it falls back. Naughty!

MilkmanAl wrote:
great post

my Deathwing Knights went up against a 100% Russ army at ATC. I was able to consistently tag half of them to prevent shooting. But that was before their codex, and I barely won only by running the Relic behind a hill.

What Character in Terminator Armour would be the best option to accompany some Deathwing Terminators/Knights teleporting in?
Thinking about giving that Character the Swift Movement warlord trait (reroll charges and advance rolls) for better turn 1 charges.
Could even be an Ancient for the additional attack I think :O

Aeri wrote:
What Character in Terminator Armour would be the best option to accompany some Deathwing Terminators/Knights teleporting in?
Thinking about giving that Character the Swift Movement warlord trait (reroll charges and advance rolls) for better turn 1 charges.
Could even be an Ancient for the additional attack I think :O

yeah ancient with Storm shield absolutely.

Alternative is jump pack Captain. Second character would be Belial ofc

After thinking about it i'm not finding Swift Movement to be the best choice. You can do that for 1 cp and an enemy char nearby. The hunt on the other hand seems better every time i look at it. The ranged part is nice, but what really shines are the movement tricks you can do with it in melee, like disengaging in the opponent's turn.

is there a compilation of all the point changes already?

I know of
Asmodai 15 Points Cheapter
Deathwing Terminators (because of Power Fists) 8 points cheaper
Black Knights 4 Points cheapter
RW Bikes ? points cheaper
Land Speeders -15 points cheaper
Dark Talon - 28 points cheaper

What about all the Ravenwing special characters (ancient etc. )? I'm assuming they all got at least 4 points cheaper aswell.

Bikes 6 points cheaper


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ezekiel 10 points cheaper. Other named characters unchanged.

attack bikes are 10 points cheaper

interrogator chappy is 5 points cheaper, with term armor he is 3 points cheaper, and with JP he's 2 points cheaper. assault cannon went up 1 point, and twin assault cannons went up 9 points. Some of this was stuff change in the chapter approved and then adapted to the DA and BA codex.

including the ones above this post, I think that covers all the changes.

Is anyone else seeing massive alpha strike potential with this book? Consider the following rough list:

Vanguard and Supreme Command detachments
Sammael on Corvex - 183
10 Black Knights - 460
Belial - 150
10 Terminators with assault cannons - 436
Azrael - 180
2x5 DWK - 500
Primaris Lieutenant - power sword - 74
1983


You can zoom your bikers up the field with Sammael, pop Speed and the plasma strat to hopefully nuke some vital heavy target(s?) then charge whatever they can. Terminators and Belial drop in and shoot twice to clear a flank. The Lieutenant is mostly to make the 3 special characters fit, but in the game, he'll be a body guard for Azrael as they slog towards the action. DWK hopefully drop in a place that, in combo with your terminators and Black Knights, prevents your opponent from running away from them. Start with Azrael near the bikes for a 4++.

Gimmicky? Maybe, but I bet it's fairly hard to deal with. Even if you go second, your strike should still be largely intact, thanks to Azrael. Yep, you use 5 of your 6 CP on the first turn, but you should really do some huge damage to just about anything. I'm going to give it a try.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Is anyone else seeing massive alpha strike potential with this book?

yeah. Some combination of plasma inceptors and deathwing knights as the big alpha, followed by either Sammeal or a jump pack captain with the Master of Maneuver trait. I don't know what the rest of the list would be, probably Scouts.

So, 10 Hellblasters with Heavy Incinerators is 350 pts, isn't it a bit much ? It's hard to justify this seeing as a few Autocannon shots may reap them all in a single volley. Any idea to support them without sinking too much points ? Placing them in ruins if possible seems obvious, but maybe run an Apothecary besides or something so that he can try to revive a 35 pts model per turn ?

 Aaranis wrote:
maybe run an Apothecary besides or something so that he can try to revive a 35 pts model per turn ?

you'd get more milage from an ancient. And plasma cannon devastators are prolly better than hellblasters

It's not worth it to take the heavy incinerators. They only get one shot, albeit at long range, so they are not good for their points. I personally like the regular incinerators. In addition to being the cheapest, they have good range and can double tap if they get close to something. The assault ones are nice for having 2 shots at 24 inches, but they are weaker, which is kind of a deal breaker for me unless I don't care about shooting vehicles with them (in which case why bother with the extra damage strat?).

Are any of you planning on running primaris other than hellblasters?

 Tagony wrote:
Are any of you planning on running primaris other than hellblasters?

I want to try out my Repulsor at some point. I didn't buy it to do shelf duty after all. I definitely like Intercessors so they will make at least some of my lists. The other stuff, I'm not as sure about.

Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.

Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game and they benefit the most from Grim Resolve. I'll probably include a few in every list, with a few heavy bolters and missile launchers for the hellfire shells and flakk missile strategems.

Against tyranids they're an asset not a liability. They block off deep strike and can act as speed bumps giving you another turn of shooting.

I just realised I have another copy of Dark Vengeance sitting around. That'll give me enough plasma cannons for a full dev squad.. hmmm. Shame the Haemotrope Reactor doesn't give any bonuses anymore.

I'm still not adding any girlymarines to my DA. They'll be going into my Purple Death Codex Marines chapter.

axisofentropy wrote:you'd get more milage from an ancient. And plasma cannon devastators are prolly better than hellblasters

Hmm a 10 man unit of Devastators with 9 plasma cannons and 1 combi-plasma costs 355 pts. For this I get more shots (if I don't roll ones or twos for the number of shots all the time of course), but less AP and less Wounds. However I get the Cherub and the Signum, so my shots get more accurate. In the end I still have a 350+ pts unit, but this one takes 10 wounds to down versus 20 for the Primaris. I think they're even in terms of use due to that, what do you think ?

ZergSmasher wrote:It's not worth it to take the heavy incinerators. They only get one shot, albeit at long range, so they are not good for their points. I personally like the regular incinerators. In addition to being the cheapest, they have good range and can double tap if they get close to something. The assault ones are nice for having 2 shots at 24 inches, but they are weaker, which is kind of a deal breaker for me unless I don't care about shooting vehicles with them (in which case why bother with the extra damage strat?).

Well I see myself deploying them in a ruin and never move them again so that they don't have the -1, and they'd be my main anti-vehicle force, so the S8-S9 could really be handy to wound Vehicles and the likes easier. Wounding Russes on 3+ is appealing. I could use the regular Incinerators too, it's true, that'll make them more polyvalent if my opponent doesn't have much vehicles or is too far away. Then I could move them close and start raining down the plasma. I still like the concept of shooting at S8 on regular shots to wound MEQ on 2+ however

Assuming that the strat "Speed of the Raven" will be Faqd at some point... as it stands it simply is unclear for those that need the text to be perfect.

I have seen a few debates pop up on whether or not black knights can fire at full BS after advancing.. IMO intent here is very clear.

If its undeniable that a squad of say ravenwing bikes with no assault weapons can advance and then use this strat to fire at full BS... it makes no sense that simply having assault weapons would make your BS worse off.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 anticitizen013 wrote:
Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.

Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game and they benefit the most from Grim Resolve. I'll probably include a few in every list, with a few heavy bolters and missile launchers for the hellfire shells and flakk missile strategems.

Against tyranids they're an asset not a liability. They block off deep strike and can act as speed bumps giving you another turn of shooting.

This. Scouts are one of the best units in the codex. Concealed Positions is fantastic. Space Marines don't have cheap screens, so you need scouts to protect your expensive units from deep strikes. I would never play Space Marines with less than 3 units of scouts. I would even use 6 of them in a competitive list. Never buy the camo cloaks. They are completely overpriced. I would run them with boltguns and a heavy bolter (one or two units can take a missile launcher instead) in an DA army.

 Aaranis wrote:

Hmm a 10 man unit of Devastators with 9 plasma cannons and 1 combi-plasma costs 355 pts...

Devastator squads can only have up to 4 heavy weapons.

Here's my first analysis of scouts. Critique very welcome.

Scout Squad
Advantages:
• Cheapest troops unit at 55 points
• Can deploy virtually anywhere, allowing
○ Deployment on objectives
○ Deployment as a forward screen
○ Deployment 9" from a unit you want to assault
• Objective secured AND infiltrate combined to prevent first turn midfield objective grabs
• Small bases, and therefore small footprint allowing deployment into terrain that might be too small for other units
• Option for shotguns
• Option for sniper rifles
• Option for pistol and blade, while being objective secured
I have deliberately excluded camo cloaks from the list of advantages because it's no better than having power armour in cover instead. Additionally, the cost makes them more expensive than having power armour in the first place.
For forward screening, no unit in our codex does it better. For side screening, Company veterans are cheaper.

If we rule out camo cloaks, what wargear do we chose? That depends on what role you want to set them, and you MUST select a role.
Are they a screen in front of your army? Keep them cheap.
Are they a screen for your flanks in a castle deployment/aura focussed army? Sniper rifles for the range.
Are they to tie up enemy units in combat? Pistol and blade, or possibly shotgun for S5 goodness.
Are they to sit on mid-field objectives and stay put? Bolters for the range.
Heavy weapons should only be for units which are not screens and are not far forward. Otherwise they'll die too quickly. A heavy bolter may be tempting, but you've just pushed up from 55 to 63 points, entering Tactical Squad territory. Be truthful with yourself about how likely they are to die in the first turn or two.
Heavy weapons in a sniper unit are also very tempting as they'll be near your back line anyway, but you pay a lot for it, and reduce your sniping power in the process. If you bought snipers, don't you want to maximise the potential for those mortal wounds on characters?

Shotguns vs pistol and blade. If you get close enough, such as deploying 9" away then moving, you have the S5 of shotguns to work with. Against T4 and T8, that's an advantage for sure. 10 shots wounding on 3s instead of 4s or 5s instead of 6s. The rest of the time, the pistol and blade gets you a shot, and two close combat attacks instead of 1, with a potential extra shot in later rounds.

Overall, I think the best options are:
Pistol and Sword for harassment of the enemy line.
Bolters for midfield objective holding
Snipers for backfield/flank screening.