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GW keeps saying they dont want my money.

GW clearly either hasn't considered the viability of pure BA in competitive tournaments, or they just don't care that they aren't viable.

 peteralmo wrote:
GW clearly either hasn't considered the viability of pure BA in competitive tournaments, or they just don't care that they aren't viable.

Welcome to all Space Marine armies.

 djones520 wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:
GW clearly either hasn't considered the viability of pure BA in competitive tournaments, or they just don't care that they aren't viable.

Welcome to all Space Marine armies.

Not quite, the melee centric factions, BA, GK, are way worse off than a Guilliman gunline.

U02dah4 wrote:
SG+ terminators + FNP banner are certainly more survivable but will struggle to make there pts back and are very vulnerable to high AP (which is more common now) and also struggle with not hitting the board till t2 (T3) if you fail the charge.

This is why its so crucial to land the SG near a squad in range of those angelus boltguns and let em have it, then charge a different target in melee. Same with regular Terminators, let those storm bolters rip apart a squad when they land, then charge something juicy. A failed charge is bad, but at least SG get 3d6 charge from the strategem, and for regular terminators you could throw on 2 AC and use the stratagem they get to re roll all hits when they land.

SG cost too much sadly to be truly viable.

Ok just playtested a squad of 10 Vanguard Vets in a friendly game vs DG. I gave them 4 storm shield and 4 double lightning claws. They landed and made the charge against a squad of 7 plagemarines and ripped them to pieces. My opponent fired some plasma and bolters into them the following turn and I made most of the saves, 2 died. They ended up killing a demon prince ( he was wounded from fire ) and a bunch of poxwalkers before the game was over ( I won ) because he was concentrating on the rest of my force ( consisted of mostly Primaris Marines, Redemptor Dreads, and Hellblasters ). Honestly with +1 to wound im sold on lightning claws now, they are ridiculous in a VV squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also just realized you can combine Sang Priest with Jump Pack with 10 VV squad... str 5 re rolls with +1 wound with double lightning claws. Against even T8 thats 4+ to wound with re roll to wound, -2 ap. Pretty tasty.

They still die like flies to mass bolter fire, SS doesnt help. A 28 pt. model with just T4 W1 is ridiculous. They only have pistols, 12" range. Company vets have the same stats, but better gear. Their max model size is only 6, though.

Did anyone try to build a Lamenters deathball around Malakim Phoros? Mass Aggressors inside his bubble sound pretty fun.

So does upon wings of fire not work turn one anymore?

It does. Just costs 2cp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
They still die like flies to mass bolter fire, SS doesnt help. A 28 pt. model with just T4 W1 is ridiculous. They only have pistols, 12" range. Company vets have the same stats, but better gear. Their max model size is only 6, though.

SS helps against a lot of stuff, just not basic stuff.

 p5freak wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Libby + Quickening + Red Thirst + Honour of the Chapter can potentially hit 20 attacks. Although the average of 16 is slightly lower, if the Libby is Mephiston, he hits a lot harder than a Rune Priest.

Meph is 145 pts. A rune priest is only 100 pts. And you have to roll a d3 for each quickening and red rampage again, the second time you fight. The rune priest can even get up to 22 attacks, if he kills 5 models in the fight phase he can use his saga of the wolfkin warlord trait, which grants him another +1 attack. And with might of heroes from a space marine librarian its 24 attacks.

No, you dont roll for each Quickening and Red Rampage.
Quickening gives you extra attacks in the Fight Phase, not when you fight.
Red Rampage adds to your Attack Characteristic for the duration of the Fight Phase.

Plus the Rune Priest relies on a WC 7 power, so your failing half the time, not counting denies.

 p5freak wrote:
They still die like flies to mass bolter fire, SS doesnt help. A 28 pt. model with just T4 W1 is ridiculous. They only have pistols, 12" range. Company vets have the same stats, but better gear. Their max model size is only 6, though.

Yeah your right. Heck I dont even know why I put any models on the table anymore. If a model can die just dont play them anymore. Guess that means we shouldent play 40k at all anymore right? Any model you put on the table can die, so I guess were just gonna give up. Go ahead and start the facebook group of " models will die so dont play them " ill be the first to join your club.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
SG+ terminators + FNP banner are certainly more survivable but will struggle to make there pts back and are very vulnerable to high AP (which is more common now) and also struggle with not hitting the board till t2 (T3) if you fail the charge.

This is why its so crucial to land the SG near a squad in range of those angelus boltguns and let em have it, then charge a different target in melee. Same with regular Terminators, let those storm bolters rip apart a squad when they land, then charge something juicy. A failed charge is bad, but at least SG get 3d6 charge from the strategem, and for regular terminators you could throw on 2 AC and use the stratagem they get to re roll all hits when they land.

Angelus boltguns are trash. More expensive and less effective stormbolters.

Bremon wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
SG+ terminators + FNP banner are certainly more survivable but will struggle to make there pts back and are very vulnerable to high AP (which is more common now) and also struggle with not hitting the board till t2 (T3) if you fail the charge.

This is why its so crucial to land the SG near a squad in range of those angelus boltguns and let em have it, then charge a different target in melee. Same with regular Terminators, let those storm bolters rip apart a squad when they land, then charge something juicy. A failed charge is bad, but at least SG get 3d6 charge from the strategem, and for regular terminators you could throw on 2 AC and use the stratagem they get to re roll all hits when they land.

Angelus boltguns are trash. More expensive and less effective stormbolters.

You may have a point there, but calling them trash might be a bit too far. 2 pts each for angelus boltguns and maybe a little more range would fix them. Or maybe give them str 5.

they are trash. They are strictly worse than bolt rifles, which are free. S5 would at least let them touch things that SG generally want to get into melee with. 12” range hurts too. 18” would add a lot of options to them.

fatbudda319 wrote:
So does upon wings of fire not work turn one anymore?

Tac reserve rule only applies to units that didn't deploy on board during deployment. GW FINALLY got it worded out clearly(phew). But doubled CP cost.

Bremon wrote:
they are trash. They are strictly worse than bolt rifles, which are free. S5 would at least let them touch things that SG generally want to get into melee with. 12” range hurts too. 18” would add a lot of options to them.

True, but dont forget, range is not much of a factor for a deepstriking jump pack squad. A decent player who knows how to move a jump pack squad after deepstrike should never have an issue with range. They are overcosted due to them having jump packs and enhanced mobility, at least thats what I think GW decided about the points cost on them. But it is just speculation on my part.

Martel732 wrote:It does. Just costs 2cp.

Which is ridiculous. Redeploying a single model, or a 15 model DC squad costs the same ? WTF ?

Ordana wrote:No, you dont roll for each Quickening and Red Rampage.
Quickening gives you extra attacks in the Fight Phase, not when you fight.
Red Rampage adds to your Attack Characteristic for the duration of the Fight Phase.

Plus the Rune Priest relies on a WC 7 power, so your failing half the time, not counting denies.

True, you dont roll for red rampage, but you have to roll for quickening (which is also 7 to manifest, like the rune priests power). The psychic power grants you d3 additional attacks in the fight phase.

Crusaderobr wrote:A decent player who knows how to move a jump pack squad after deepstrike should never have an issue with range.

How does he do that ? Deepstrike happens at the end of the movement phase.

Thank smash capt for upon wings of fire nerf.

 p5freak wrote:
[Which is ridiculous. Redeploying a single model, or a 15 model DC squad costs the same ? WTF ?

S: user, -3, D2 2 extra attacks h2h weapon cost same CP as 48" 2d6, S8/9, -4 D2/3. Both are obviously equal value relic

Strategems, warlord traits, relics etc are always same price encouraging death star builds.

Most of the changes would be fine if jump marines weren't one of the most fragile units in the game on a per point basis. The BA army doesn't work, only cheesy characters protected by the magic character force field and the fact that snipers are mostly awful.

Bremon wrote:
they are trash. They are strictly worse than bolt rifles, which are free. S5 would at least let them touch things that SG generally want to get into melee with. 12” range hurts too. 18” would add a lot of options to them.

Bolt rifles aren't really free, like bolt guns they are just built into the base cost of the Intercessors. ABGs can fire after Advancing which Bolt Rifles can't do although I admit you probably wouldn't want to very often.

Yeah, that’s a hell of an idea right there. Advance your SG so you can shoot garbage guns and not charge. Much better idea to use 1...err... 2 CP to redeploy if they’re that out of position and you’re desperate to kill 5 cultists or 2 marines. That way you can use another 2 CP, and maybe 1 extra to re roll a die, to get into CC with something. 5 CP is very little for a mono faction BA list; less than 40% of our total pool.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Bremon wrote:
they are trash. They are strictly worse than bolt rifles, which are free. S5 would at least let them touch things that SG generally want to get into melee with. 12” range hurts too. 18” would add a lot of options to them.

True, but dont forget, range is not much of a factor for a deepstriking jump pack squad. A decent player who knows how to move a jump pack squad after deepstrike should never have an issue with range. They are overcosted due to them having jump packs and enhanced mobility, at least thats what I think GW decided about the points cost on them. But it is just speculation on my part.

As for positioning like “smart” marine player; Angelus boltguns are awful at killing the sorts of things you want SG to be killing. So “smart” positioning puts them in charge range of what they want to kill and shooting range of something softer. Then the 28% of the time that you fail your 3D6 charge leaves them stranded in range or more things than you’d like, and then the plasma gets them. Unless you’re investing further points into a relic banner SGA, jump pack priest, etc. I’m which case we are back to the Death Stars of ye olden days. “Movement after deep strike” basically doesn’t exist because your SG are usually crippled after the drop. Honestly not being able to fly into melee over chaff will likely be the most debilitating change to my lists.

Good grief Charlie Brown, between Bremon, sfpreak and Martel, I'm shocked we all don't suffer from some kind of depression. Look guys, a lot of us love BA for the sake of loving BA - let's find constructive ways to use the tools we have, rather than gripe about what we don't. I get it - we aren't Aeldari or Tau or whatever the new hotness is, and the GW nerf bat seems to over-target us. But let's focus on cool, viable builds like that VanVet, SS and LC build or ways to use our mobility in conjunction with a firebase to be competitive, if not overpowering. What are some unit combos that have been effective?

I for one, have found a firebase of a cheap captain, ancient, a deredeo with the pavise and either a full 3x5 or 2x5 chunk of hellblasters to be a darn near impossible brick of a firebase to move - with some decent mobility. And you get a CP for fielding it! Solid anti-tank or anti heavy infantry. Yea - not as good as DA, ok, but with my sang guard bouncing around them, the enemy had a tough time prioritizing targets.

I could see how adding some SS VanVets bouncing around the table would make for some tough, mobile units in addition to a tough firebase. That could be a pretty killer combo. Anyone else have something constructive to add?

The thread is 55 pages and we had a pretty empty tool box to start with. Everything fairly competent has already been discussed to death, and most new comments are comments on our nerfs or asking for reviews of the latest cancer soup list.

We all love BA, and have spent a ton of money, which is why we still play with our dumpster fire book.

“Add some ForgeWorld!” is a tip we’ve read a lot already.

Leviathan dreads are the local cure-all in my meta.

keeblerartillery wrote:
Good grief Charlie Brown, between Bremon, sfpreak and Martel, I'm shocked we all don't suffer from some kind of depression. Look guys, a lot of us love BA for the sake of loving BA - let's find constructive ways to use the tools we have, rather than gripe about what we don't. I get it - we aren't Aeldari or Tau or whatever the new hotness is, and the GW nerf bat seems to over-target us. But let's focus on cool, viable builds like that VanVet, SS and LC build or ways to use our mobility in conjunction with a firebase to be competitive, if not overpowering. What are some unit combos that have been effective?

I for one, have found a firebase of a cheap captain, ancient, a deredeo with the pavise and either a full 3x5 or 2x5 chunk of hellblasters to be a darn near impossible brick of a firebase to move - with some decent mobility. And you get a CP for fielding it! Solid anti-tank or anti heavy infantry. Yea - not as good as DA, ok, but with my sang guard bouncing around them, the enemy had a tough time prioritizing targets.

I could see how adding some SS VanVets bouncing around the table would make for some tough, mobile units in addition to a tough firebase. That could be a pretty killer combo. Anyone else have something constructive to add?

I enjoy my deredeo as well. Particularly against units with invuns where the ap isn't important. Hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s with that amount of S8 shots is very handy.

Punchy squishy units need to be cheap. BA are punchy and squishy, but not cheap. That's basically the whole story. Slam capt was a gimmick to cover this up.