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 p5freak wrote:

rhavien wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If you cant kill some basic goons (T3 infantry with 5+ sv) with 60/120 attacks (15 DC chainsword models with four attacks on the charge, re-rolling all failed hits with lemartes, fighting twice with honor the chapter) hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with red thirst, your problem wont be solved by 15/30 more attacks.

Of course I didn't mean such an scenario. I said I'm using small squads. This is just the ridiculous overkill you should avoid. I'm totally agreeing with you, that your setup isn't much benefitting from the shock attack rule at all, but maybe you should just use less guys? They won't suffer from moral losses in small squads and the enemie maybe wastes wounds while shooting at 3 5-man squads instead of a big one. Also the extra attack is a huge thing for some quality weapons hidden in you squads. A fourth attack for the thunderhammer or power weapon is a welcome improvement.

I am not using DC at all.

Understandable. Although one could use DC as a counter-strike unit if possible.
I'm hoping for a new codex after those for the founding chapters and Dark Angels.

New C:SM FAQ's and errata are up.

No using their strats even if you have a detachment of them.

Venerable chaplin dreadnought got proper litanies now. I love this dude and now he's even better.

Also in the index list there is no JP SP or JP Ancient or JP command squad. I'm sure were getting them back soon when we get a supp/dex.

 p5freak wrote:
I just dont understand why codex SM inceptors are 41 pts., but BA, SW, DA and SW are still 45. Codex SM tac squads are 60, non codex SM squads are still 65.

Yeah, it is a bit sucky and could easily have been addressed in the FAQ. Will we have to wait for CA19 or will we get our new Dex by then?

On the flip side, at least our Smash Captains still get cheap Thunder Hammers.

kryczek wrote:
New C:SM FAQ's and errata are up.

No using their strats even if you have a detachment of them.

Unless you use FW units. The FAQ says you cant use stratagems from the new SM codex on any ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from any codex. But FW doesnt have codexes, they have indexes.


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 Karhedron wrote:

On the flip side, at least our Smash Captains still get cheap Thunder Hammers.

Agreed. The deadliest smash captains still get cheap TH

How do you fill in the troop role?
What units do you bring for a battalion detachment?
go full primaris of take classic marines and how do you load them out?
I have 2 units of 5 intercessors and probably always bring them.
For now i need 1 more unit and in the future an other 3 more.

the rest of the army is much elite with jump packs (sanguinary guard, death companie and terminators)

usually people bring either primaris or scouts (for chep screening), I would advise on more primaris if you need to buy them (who knows what will happen to regular marines...). Also right now Intercesors seem to me a very optimal choice all in all

I have an additional noob question.
How do you effectively use an librarian. if you use it at al.

I can't seem to figure out how to use them. it also seems to me that you use them at the front. I always had the impression librarians where for in the back, to keep them save while they do their thing (whatever it is).

The only useful psychic powers are smite, wings of sanguinius, quickening, unleash rage. Give the libby a JP, deepstrike him with DC or SG, cast unleash rage on them. Or use quickening and wings of sanguinius on a libby dread, or mephiston.

So what is the best way to equip DC in a 2000-2500pt game? Would full thunder hammers be a waste of points? In 1500pt I’ve run 15 with 4 powerfist and the rest chainsword mostly to keep the WYSIWYG but I’m working on fixing them up for bigger games.

DC are glass cannons, they hit hard, and die to a stiff breeze afterwards. Use 10 with boltguns and chainswords, and add 2 TH. Maybe add 2 inferno pistols.

Given that THs are almost certainly going to be getting a price hike (based on the new SM dex), I am going with power fists. You can get more bang for your buck with fists (or at least you will soon).

Mostly CS/Bolter but with a few fists sprinkled in.

The cost of a TH for non characters is 16 pts, and 40 pts. for characters, in the new SM codex. I dont see why this would change for non codex SM, like us.

Same weapon, same stats on wielder. It's pretty optimistic to expect point cost to remain old in new codex. It's pretty much quaranteed to change.

Im sure it will be 40 for characters in the new BA codex, and im also sure it will remain 16 for non characters. Thats what i meant.

 p5freak wrote:
Im sure it will be 40 for characters in the new BA codex, and im also sure it will remain 16 for non characters. Thats what i meant.

Fair enough. I still think that on a squad level, power fists are more cost effective than thunder hammers as you get more attacks overall and a higher average damage output for your points. Thunder hammers are really only worthwhile on characters or units with a small number of attacks that you plan to crank up to the max with stratagems, psychic powers etc.

48 points will buy you 3 Hammers or 5 fists (plus change). Against large targets, the fists will do slightly more damage. Against infantry, the fists will do significantly more damage. Fists can also be stacked with bolters while I think the Hammer takes up both hands (a peculiarity of DC).

Yes, another downside of DC, its the only unit who can only take a single TH. Any other SM unit which can use TH can pick a second weapon.

I dont see them updating the Blood Angels codex in a while yet though. Wonder if they will just do it as part of Chapter Approve. Get the nerfs without the benefits!

And even If we get our update, I'm concerned what GW is up to. We could be one of the codicies that break the power creep spiral, like we ended in 7th...
Our chapter tactic isn't useful for our vehicles, except dreads who got it anyway. Right now we wouldn't benefit from the removal of the CT restrictions. If we keep our +1 to wound they would have to add a strong second part for our chapter tactic that benefits vehicles.
Also we are likely to get a bonus to the assault doctrine, if we get access to the doctrine system at all. I see this as a disadvantage, just because your army can only benefit from it round three onwards.

What would you like to see for a vehicle benefit? It seems the other chapters have that covered pretty well.

With most of the other chapters going the way of primaris blood angels stands out as the ones that benefit the least from it given how shooty they all are, and also rely on more fluff models that are not primaris.

Death Company Primaris?
Baal Repulsor?

I would love an aggressive force:

Lucifer Pattern Engines for every Blood Angel Rhino-Chassis:
Let them all drive 24" when advancing. Make Rhinos great again!
Let Dreads advance and charge?
Land Raider with an ability to fall back and shoot.
Assaultsquats as Troop-choice - but that won't happen. :(
Forlorn Fury for everyone, not only DC and for 1CP - just like the RG-Strat.
A push for our Librarians would be cool.

BA have been excellent with Rhinos, Land Raider, Dreads, Librarians and Jump Packs. That should be shown.

Covenant wrote:

BA have been excellent with Rhinos, Land Raider, Dreads, Librarians and Jump Packs. That should be shown.

But those are all old school stuff you've basically highlighted.

It would be interesting if they do death company and guard in primaris forms. I havent read the lore but I assume primaris are still subject to the black rage? Would be great to see BA get the first legit close combat primaris unit.

I would also expect to see BA get access to other codex units like thunderfire cannons.

In other discussion do any of you bring Primaris Eliminators in your army? No chapter benefit at the moment but it seems like still a good enough unit.

yeah... I've got like 20.000 points of "normal-BA" and if those 5.000 Euro (paint excluded) I have invested in my army will be dead because of Primaris-BS, I definitely won't buy any Marines ever again. So I am only interested in the rules of old models.

Unfortunately old models will sort of fade out. They will still have rules, but points wise they will be inefficient. Just compare the old tac marine at 12 pts. against the new intercessor at 17 pts. Compare a land raider to a repulsor. GW could give the land raider better rules, but they dont. Most stratagems in the new codex are only usable on PRIMARIS units.

 Smirrors wrote:

In other discussion do any of you bring Primaris Eliminators in your army? No chapter benefit at the moment but it seems like still a good enough unit.

Not yet as spending £30 for 3 models just irks me. Rules-wise they are pretty decent with either super-sniper rifles or light lascannons that can be combined with flexible deployment, camo cloaks and the nifty ability to fallback from Assault. They are a good heavy choice if you want to run a Brigade. They are pretty vital to an all-primaris army for anti-tank.

I like the unit, just not their price in the shops.

 Karhedron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Im sure it will be 40 for characters in the new BA codex, and im also sure it will remain 16 for non characters. Thats what i meant.

Fair enough. I still think that on a squad level, power fists are more cost effective than thunder hammers as you get more attacks overall and a higher average damage output for your points. Thunder hammers are really only worthwhile on characters or units with a small number of attacks that you plan to crank up to the max with stratagems, psychic powers etc.

48 points will buy you 3 Hammers or 5 fists (plus change). Against large targets, the fists will do slightly more damage. Against infantry, the fists will do significantly more damage. Fists can also be stacked with bolters while I think the Hammer takes up both hands (a peculiarity of DC).

The thing is that for 16pts you get 4 TH attacks that deal 12dmg to hard stuff. Sure 18pts gives 8pf attacks that deal 16dmg to the same things. But you also lose 3, if using pf+cs for comparison instead of bolter, normal attacks for that and start losing the heavy hitters sooner.

If I have 3TH in a squad of 10 I need to lose 8 models before I lose a hammer but only 5 if it were powerfists.

I think its better to just use TH over PF for DC. You can more easily keep up the threat against targets such as knights while still having a bunch of CC attacks for slightly cheaper than PFs. With TH you would probably survive the overwatch with all hammers and maybe even the return stomp so if using the fight again strat you will hit with full power the second time aswell. With pf half of them would likely be gone at that point. And if multiple charging 2 different units like a tank and Infantry unit having 3 TH on the tank and 7 CS on the Infantry is preferable to 5/5 or 6/4.

Against 1w MEQs the pf is superior but you dont extra PF attacks to kill that and most everything else I would prefer hammers. Even if losing a few bolters. Hammers are that good. If PF were flat 2d I would probably reconsider or if the pf were 1-2pts cheaper alternatively if the th was slightly more expensive.

Rumor has it we are stuck with our bad rules (unless CA 2019 changes things) until spring 2020...

Volume 1: Asuryani vs. Drukhari (October 2019) Volume 2: Chaos vs. BT? (end of November - beginning of December) Volume 3: Blood Angels vs. Tyranids (early 2020) Volume 4: SW vs Ork (2020) Volume 5:? vs? Edit Albrecht: Top! I put this pinned

My red white scars/raven guard are going to get a lot of play it looks like...

bananathug wrote:
Rumor has it we are stuck with our bad rules (unless CA 2019 changes things) until spring 2020...

Volume 1: Asuryani vs. Drukhari (October 2019) Volume 2: Chaos vs. BT? (end of November - beginning of December) Volume 3: Blood Angels vs. Tyranids (early 2020) Volume 4: SW vs Ork (2020) Volume 5:? vs? Edit Albrecht: Top! I put this pinned

My red white scars/raven guard are going to get a lot of play it looks like...

I was making a BA list and then thought "hmm, if I also had a RG batallion what would it look like?". Started with a few units and in the end my list was a BA smash captain, Libby Dread and 3 troops and the other 1600pts RG. But then I have 1600pts without doctrines.... And after comparing Shrike at 130pts and Dante at 175pts, even at 175 pts I would take Shrike over Dante, and realising how much more you get from RG than BA the list I was thinking about is now 2000pts RG. Just need to buy a Shrike and put a proper helmet on him, remove some ugly bits and paint him red.

Not like our Smash Captain is even better than the double warlord trait smash captain that RG get. Turn 2 against a knight they hit and wounds on 2s..... and they even have more, albeit a tiny but worse each, ways to get that captain there than BA and cheaper too!

If run as RG successors if you dont want Shrike or go all in on anti shooting traits they can exchange cover/-1 to hit for rerolls, extra attacks or longer charges.

I sure hope we get at least a few lines in CA that gives us some stuff while we wait for a proper codex. Chapter tactics on vehicles so Invictor Warsuits can get +1 to wound in CC. Standard doctrine, if nothing else so we can ally with other marines and not just go 100% other marines. Cheaper and reworded stratagems would work as well. Like let Libby dread fight again too and make "Forlorn Fury" 1cp since its already worse than what RG get for 1cp. Same with "Upon Wings of Fire" since RG can just cast a Psychic power to throw their smash captain across the table turn 1. Even "Descent of Angels" could go down to 1cp to match the RG version. Any one of these would be a huge help. Especially the stratagem costs since its rediculous how cheap they are for RG compared to us and they have an awesome chapter tactic for troop choices so it isnt even a real tax for them.

Everything is more expensive (in terms of both power and points) for Blood Angels. I have the BA codex and SM codex too. Just started a successor chapter. What was coming out as ~350 points on the SM codex (which I got first) is coming outs as ~450 points using the BA codex (which I am going to use).

I guess it's because the Chapter and its successors are depleted in the fluff (especially after the DoB), so every unit is worth more.

 Darian Aarush wrote:
I guess it's because the Chapter and its successors are depleted in the fluff (especially after the DoB), so every unit is worth more.

Or because the BA codex is older.

Andfluff rarity shouldn't have any impact on points.

So im not seeing the point increase for Thunder hammars in the FAQ or battlescribe.

Are smash captains paying 40pts per thunder hammer?

Its weird b/c we have the shock assault rule in there from the SM codex, and other changes but not that one.