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 p5freak wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Wow, so far i am not impressed. We get DC primaris intercessors (without JP, i guess), and during the assault doctrine +1A, which is in T3. So, footslogging them up the board Or put them in an impulsor, and wait one turn, because you cant charge after the transport has moved. Why is it even called assault vehicle, when you can assault out of it ??

I got to say, I followed this thread that you started, I don't see you very optimistic even in the face of a boost. What would it takes to make you a tad happier?

What boost ? We get +1A in T3, wow. Some games are already over by T3. A litany that does AP-4 on an unmodified roll of 6s, woooow. Litanies are pretty much useless, because the priest has to be on the battlefield before the turn starts. You deepstrike, no litanies. You disembark, no litanies. DC primaris are a nerf. No JP, no deepstrike, no descent of angels. No relocation possible with upon wings of fire. But maybe there will be a stratagem to enable them to charge after disembarking from an impulsor. What about support characters like astorath, lemartes ? Are they primaris ? No, they arent. They have to take JPs and deepstrike along their DC primaris intercessors, when they disembark, because they cannot embark on a primaris only transport.

I hope they drop the points on the old DC JP marines to 15 pts. That would be a boost.

so you're just going to forget about the addition of doctrines, litanies, etc? This is a full on boost for BA. Be my guest and just keep using your existing BA rules.

 p5freak wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Wow, so far i am not impressed. We get DC primaris intercessors (without JP, i guess), and during the assault doctrine +1A, which is in T3. So, footslogging them up the board Or put them in an impulsor, and wait one turn, because you cant charge after the transport has moved. Why is it even called assault vehicle, when you can assault out of it ??

I got to say, I followed this thread that you started, I don't see you very optimistic even in the face of a boost. What would it takes to make you a tad happier?

What boost ? We get +1A in T3, wow. Some games are already over by T3. A litany that does AP-4 on an unmodified roll of 6s, woooow. Litanies are pretty much useless, because the priest has to be on the battlefield before the turn starts. You deepstrike, no litanies. You disembark, no litanies. DC primaris are a nerf. No JP, no deepstrike, no descent of angels. No relocation possible with upon wings of fire. But maybe there will be a stratagem to enable them to charge after disembarking from an impulsor. What about support characters like astorath, lemartes ? Are they primaris ? No, they arent. They have to take JPs and deepstrike along their DC primaris intercessors, when they disembark, because they cannot embark on a primaris only transport.

I hope they drop the points on the old DC JP marines to 15 pts. That would be a boost.

You see, this is exactly the same mentality you LL find in every other doomsday prophet in every army forum.
You obviously play a lot of BA and a you have been forced to one playstyle by a bad codex .
Even if Thomas Oakey showed the world (twice) that positioning wins you tournaments

However now the army got buffed, Mephiston got 3 powers, we have primaris DC, but that is not enough for you, maybe because you are stuck in that mentality to repeat the same concept over and over again.
I would expect more acmen and more solutions, instead of problems, by somebody that have BA as their main army.

What DC needed was more survivibility, not more attacks.

These buffs don’t seem to change anything for BA

The Deer Hunter wrote:
What DC needed was more survivibility, not more attacks.

These buffs don’t seem to change anything for BA

Primaris DC will have 2 wounds, which should make them more survivable.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
What DC needed was more survivibility, not more attacks.

These buffs don’t seem to change anything for BA

These are 2 wounds and 6+ FNP marines we're talking about, this is already an improvement to their survivability. One could support them with a chaplain and a sanguinary priest. They might be slow to reach their target but it's a treat the opponent can't completely ignore even if he also has to deal with the 15 vanguard primaris and 15 scout placed 9" from his deploiment zone. Yes I play very aggressively.

This update is good vs most lists, but vanilla marines will still wipe up BA like they were grots. I don't think old DC are even good atm, regardless of a couple of tournament wins. One win was in spite of the DC imo, not because of them.

Punching with power armor is hard in 8th. Very hard. There are still 4 pt dummies in our way. Still a ton of invulns in the game. And we still bleed points very quickly on the opponent's turn. Doctrines are probably the biggest help here.

What BA really needed was more survivability and for DoA to hit one unit and two characters, not just one unit.

I'm just glad we get combat doctrines and C:SM 2.0 Strategems, gear, and units. That's all I really wanted anyways.

So 40pt hammers cometh now?

Spado wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
What DC needed was more survivibility, not more attacks.

These buffs don’t seem to change anything for BA

These are 2 wounds and 6+ FNP marines we're talking about, this is already an improvement to their survivability. One could support them with a chaplain and a sanguinary priest. They might be slow to reach their target but it's a treat the opponent can't completely ignore even if he also has to deal with the 15 vanguard primaris and 15 scout placed 9" from his deploiment zone. Yes I play very aggressively.

This guys are too slow atm. for the 20 pts they cost, old DC needed a better FNP.

still about DC, did Lemartes loose the charge re roll?

No, he still has it.

I'm astonished Noone mentioned the leaks over in the Bolter and Chainsword BA thread?

Points:

Sanguinor down to 130
Death Company down 2 points
DC Dread down 10
Furioso dread down 10
Sang priest with JP down about 16 points
Sanguard angelus boltguns free,
SG encarmine swords down to 8
Mephiston 145
Flamestorm cannon down 5 points

Stratagems:

Death mask -1 to hit (1 cp Angelus boltguns re roll hit or wounds and ignore cover (1 cp )
FNP 5+++ to a unit (applies to Death Company only) Give extra warlord trait Rapid fire intercessors gain Rapid fire 2
Sanguinary priest can use his healing stuff twice instead of once
Transhuman Physiology
Hammer of Wrath (models with Jump Packs that charge into base-to-base contact cause mortal wounds on 5+)

Relics:

The Librarian one from the preview
+2 to move for jumpack units( Relic for sang ancient only)
crap bolt rifle
relic crozius
new jumpack which allows you to fall back and charge and +1 to the charge roll

Red Thirst: Add +1 to wound and +1 to charge and advance rolls

I'm astonished Noone mentioned the leaks over in the Bolter and Chainsword BA thread?

Points:

Sanguinor down to 130
Death Company down 2 points
DC Dread down 10
Furioso dread down 10
Sang priest with JP down about 16 points
Sanguard angelus boltguns free,
SG encarmine swords down to 8
Mephiston 145
Flamestorm cannon down 5 points

Stratagems:

Death mask -1 to hit (1 cp Angelus boltguns re roll hit or wounds and ignore cover (1 cp )
FNP 5+++ to a unit (applies to Death Company only) Give extra warlord trait Rapid fire intercessors gain Rapid fire 2
Sanguinary priest can use his healing stuff twice instead of once
Transhuman Physiology
Hammer of Wrath (models with Jump Packs that charge into base-to-base contact cause mortal wounds on 5+)

Relics:

The Librarian one from the preview
+2 to move for jumpack units( Relic for sang ancient only)
crap bolt rifle
relic crozius
new jumpack which allows you to fall back and charge and +1 to the charge roll

Red Thirst: Add +1 to wound and +1 to charge and advance rolls

Looks more like a wish list to me.

Sang priest with jump pack was the nail in the coffin seeing as its index only.

https://m.imgur.com/4LRAP4t

Leaks from CA from reddit. Supports some of the previous post but sang priests arent even on the list

Death co intercessors are elites at 18 ppm. Sang guard and death co with jp both drop 2 pt a model.

original poster also states an faq is going to drop day after CA with points changes for marines

Dante 150 He isn't worth more than 130.

I'm liking most of our new stuff, extra attack on round three should give us a mid game boost as we often start to run out of steam by then.

Extra relics, WL traits and strats can't be a bad thing, we are really lacking in some areas. Litanies is a little double edges and a guaranteed re-roll bubble is great but the extra options (i.e extra charge distance) are certainly useful.

I don't play with primaris marines but the DC intercessors seem good, don't look at them as a DC replacement (they are slower and worse in combat) look at them as more survivable and better in combat intercessors.

I'm a little annoyed at the seeming lack of vehicle chapter tactics, just makes fielding any vehicles feel like I'm making a sub par choice. Our stormhawk costs the same as a marine one but misses out on loads of bonuses. Perhaps there is still something to be revealed, seems strange that the flesh tearers have our trait with an added bonus so perhaps there is something to be added to ours? Something to make us move faster would be my guess.

The chapter approved points changes look good overall :-)

Lasty it seems that we still haven't gained access to standard marine psykic powers, it would be so easy to add in. Its not that they are super awesome its just that I think we should get access to the same amount (or more) than chapters like Ironhand and imperial fists.

 p5freak wrote:
Dante 150 He isn't worth more than 130.

Really? That's what you focus on in the new points list? Not the significant drops to Sanguinary Guard costs, or DC Dreads, or DC in general? I don't think this is going to propel BA to the top of the meta by any means, but there comes a point when relentless negativity is neither helpful nor healthy.

P5freak is more of a lamenter than a blood angel

Those are labeled as leaks from someone who had the chance to see the book and not a wishlist.
Sang Priest makes sense wit JP because we know he gets an upgraded datasheet.

I own BA and nids, and boy those nide are a pile of gak compared to all the good stuff BA are getting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EVERYTHING went down in price, DC can use physiology and we got our own chapter trait and doctrines.

Dante went down 65 points (!!!). What does he want more???

Khornatedemon wrote:
https://m.imgur.com/4LRAP4t

Leaks from CA from reddit. Supports some of the previous post but sang priests arent even on the list

Death co intercessors are elites at 18 ppm. Sang guard and death co with jp both drop 2 pt a model.

original poster also states an faq is going to drop day after CA with points changes for marines

The last point about an FAQ is in keeping with how the Marine Codex's have been treated and definitely something to highlight as a possibility. People have been pointing out the difficulty of interrupting the physical printing process, but an FAQ circumvents that. I'm gonna hold off on any large purchases until things shake out.

The physiology strat is only for Primaris, isn't it? So you could make DC Intercessors pretty durable, but not our jumpy shorties.

I believe that Transhuman Physiology is any marine unit. Gene-Wrought Might is Primaris only.

"Use this Stratagem when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from your army that is not a VEHICLE or a SERVITOR is chosen as a target for an attack...."

I stand corrected with a grin on my face

 Emicrania wrote:
I own BA and nids, and boy those nide are a pile of gak compared to all the good stuff BA are getting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EVERYTHING went down in price, DC can use physiology and we got our own chapter trait and doctrines.

Dante went down 65 points (!!!). What does he want more???

Lets see what others get for 150 pts. Azrael is 150 as well, and he has a 6" 4+ inv bubble. This means he can give half of the ENTIRE ARMY (or even the entire army depending on points) a 4+ inv ! What can Dante do for 150 ? Re-roll all failed hits, good luck when you shoot at something that is -1 or -2 to hit. You will only be able to re-roll 1s and 2s. Almost the same as a captain for 74 pts.
Primaris DC come with a transport tax. Or are you going to footslog them down the battlefield ? A transport will be mandatory for them, if you dont want them to die on their way into melee. As for stratagem which can be used on them, we have to wait and see, they could get a new keyword like DEATH COMPANY INTERCESSORS, which would mean some stratagems wouldnt work on them.
I dont see any "significant" point drops, as someone else said. Everything so far is about 10%. Something like 25% would be significant.

Dante needs the new updated chapter master text.

Which I'm sure he'll get in PA3. Apparently there is 24 new datasheets for us.

That makes him worth 150 easy imo. Fast, 2+ armor, ton of attacks and reroll all.

I would agree 150 does seem about right especially if there is changes to RT as is currently rumoured.

Remember that Shrike is only 130pts and he gets a really nice anti character gun and buffs JP units, also have a usable warlord trait and 2 inch extra move. He only loses 2+ save for that. They are about equal in CC with Dante being better against some and Shrike against others. I would take Shrike over Dante at the same point cost.

Shrike is cheap enough that you dont really waste points no matter what he does. With Dante you either lose fighting capability by buffing ranged units, which isnt that good in BA, or you use him in CC but then you could have cheaper options to buff your melee units.

If BA could make a strong shooting castle like IH or some other SM successor then Dante would be a really nice counter punch model but you pay for him being good at 2 things while he can only really do 1 thing at a time in BA.

 p5freak wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
I own BA and nids, and boy those nide are a pile of gak compared to all the good stuff BA are getting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EVERYTHING went down in price, DC can use physiology and we got our own chapter trait and doctrines.

Dante went down 65 points (!!!). What does he want more???

Lets see what others get for 150 pts. Azrael is 150 as well, and he has a 6" 4+ inv bubble. This means he can give half of the ENTIRE ARMY (or even the entire army depending on points) a 4+ inv ! What can Dante do for 150 ? Re-roll all failed hits, good luck when you shoot at something that is -1 or -2 to hit. You will only be able to re-roll 1s and 2s. Almost the same as a captain for 74 pts.
Primaris DC come with a transport tax. Or are you going to footslog them down the battlefield ? A transport will be mandatory for them, if you dont want them to die on their way into melee. As for stratagem which can be used on them, we have to wait and see, they could get a new keyword like DEATH COMPANY INTERCESSORS, which would mean some stratagems wouldnt work on them.
I dont see any "significant" point drops, as someone else said. Everything so far is about 10%. Something like 25% would be significant.

Azrael aura is only for infantry and WHOLLY WHITIN.

So nah, Azrael is pretty weak as a character.