Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Xirax wrote:
So no batreps, no comp lists over the internet. What have been your takeaways post PA?

There seemed to be some buzz on incursors, anyone got any actual field experience. My biggest pout is whether we need a spearhead (dedicated anti-tank) or can we just back dual batallion and big blob of SG, SG ancient VVets/DC..

Also yet to try out DC in drop pod to break the 12" anti-DS meta of new shiny SM.

Incursors look good on paper and I have heard people anecdotally reporting good performance from them but I haven't tried them myself yet (my UFO pile is too big already).

Dual Battalion is working well for me. PA has given us a real boost but we are as CP-hungry as ever (perhaps moreso now that we have Transhuman Physiology competing for those precious CPs). Dual Battalion gives us plenty of slots for AT and we have plenty of characters and units capable of taking even LoWs apart in melee.

If Infiltrators are causing a problem, Forlorn Furying a DC squad into them is probably the easiest solution. They mess with DS but are nothing special in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 necr0n wrote:
How are people running SG at this point? What support or what loadout?

I run 10 with 5 fists and 5 Swords. I make 1 my Warlord so it bakes full rerolls into the squad (I use Hero of the Chapter to build Captain Smash). After that, I run the following characters for support in order of importance depending on points.

1. SG Ancient with SoS.
2. Sanguinary Priest with JP for healing, resurrection and +1S.
3. Sanguinor for +1A bubble
4. Librarian with Jump Pack for Unleash Rage and another point dependent on opponent.

So with the new additions in PA i am thinking about fielding Terminator once more. I am, in a friendly environment, going to field 2 assault squads one with hammers and one with claws supported with a Sang. priest with jump and the Icon of the Angel.

I think that the Hammer termies can make a comeback (I still think that the claw ones underperform sang guard)

For me, at the highest possible competitive setting, the BA have just been a ’different’ SM list, possibly used at ETC ruled team tournaments where you can pair it against something other than the highest top tier. Basically, a mech SM list (max invictors, hunters, whirlwinds, 3+ impulsors with small Intercessor units) and a melee character loadout. 2 damage4 smash Caps, Dante and Mephiston/Libra Dread. That’s it really, not sure it’s possible to do better.

I just started with my ba but I have really enjoyed them with the new pa book. Just getting access to the new good strats seems terrific to me (Why yes I would like a librarian dreadnaught that takes half dmg when it gets hit...).

Baal predators are still pretty worthless beyond a cool model. For the points just take a razorback.

Mephiston is an interesting guy now. Being primaris he is actually not as easy to deploy so he gets put in the same group as the librarian dread. I have thought about taking an impulser and 5 death co intercessors to move him up the field instead of using wings of sanguinius so the lib dread can use it but that's a pretty hefty point investment just to move him. He is really nasty still once he hits cc though, I have not lost him yet in a game (came close once but then an sanguinary priest healed him up right lol. )

Saw this idea on B&C and made some quick mathhammering..

Concept of smash chaplain with DVoS and mantra of strength equipped with a power fist and artisan of war (hero of the chapter would be my take).

Compared it quickly between Astorath, Lemartes, Smash captain (DVoS+AoW), Mephy (2 attacks from quickening). Also with succesful mantra of strength and the charge bonus.

All these wound on 2+ against T7 or lower.

Against 3+ save ** and 5++:
Cpt smash - 19.444dmg ** 15.556dmg
Smash chap - 14.815dmg ** 11.852dmg
Astorath - 13.125dmg ** 10.694dmg
Mephy - 12.153dmg ** 9.722dmg
Lemmy - 11.111dmg ** 11.111dmg

These numbers might be a bit wrong, but still gives some perspective. With red rampage and honour the chapter etc the damage output increases way more. The 3-5 damage power fist even with -1 to hit fares quite well point-wise. Only 99 points for the chap and it might surprise the enemy as a disguised mini-smash captain.

I'll definitely try this concept this weekend. Found my DC chaplain bits will build one tonight. I'll let you know how it fares in a 500p game.

FYI:
my 500p list if someone interested.

Azuza001 wrote:

Mephiston is an interesting guy now. Being primaris he is actually not as easy to deploy so he gets put in the same group as the librarian dread. I have thought about taking an impulser and 5 death co intercessors to move him up the field instead of using wings of sanguinius so the lib dread can use it but that's a pretty hefty point investment just to move him. He is really nasty still once he hits cc though, I have not lost him yet in a game (came close once but then an sanguinary priest healed him up right lol. )

You can still use old mephiston, with legends.

I know but the new model looks so cool. I painted mine up to be snorting a line of valhallen snow off his finger..... Mephy gets the good stuff to cast quickening....

Played another game with the new rules today (only my second since BoB).

I ran a buff character heavy list with lots of scouts, a couple of whirlwinds and three main units there to receive the buffs. A full DC blob, 9 Sang guards and 5 tactical terminators.

Going second against a mixed Aeldari/drukari list with two grot blobs and the full warlock deathstar. I managed to hide the DC then redeploy them and take out 4 of the warlocks turn one, he then had to spend his turn two dealing with them.
My turn two the terminators and sang guard dropped in and together with a smash captain torn the two grot units to bits. He then gunned down a fair few of my characters but the terms and SG survived and managed to take out the rest of the meat of his list, he conceded after.

Take aways:
Mephiston is not much use when the opponent has multiple rerollable deny attempts:(
With proper support Sang guard will kill whatever they attack, the strat for turning 1 dam into 2 is super good.
For just under 200pts a squad of 5 tac terminators are very useful. Good shooting, good assault, good survivability. Get them in cover and charge something big.
I played with two sets of sniper scouts and a unit of Eliminators, weight of snipers is key.
I really wish we had a way of locking a unit in combat, but I suspect that would be a little busted

We have a way to lock units in melee, it's called tri pointing, or taking a hostage.

Xirax wrote:
Saw this idea on B&C and made some quick mathhammering..

Concept of smash chaplain with DVoS and mantra of strength equipped with a power fist and artisan of war (hero of the chapter would be my take).

Compared it quickly between Astorath, Lemartes, Smash captain (DVoS+AoW), Mephy (2 attacks from quickening). Also with succesful mantra of strength and the charge bonus.

All these wound on 2+ against T7 or lower.

Against 3+ save ** and 5++:
Cpt smash - 19.444dmg ** 15.556dmg
Smash chap - 14.815dmg ** 11.852dmg
Astorath - 13.125dmg ** 10.694dmg
Mephy - 12.153dmg ** 9.722dmg
Lemmy - 11.111dmg ** 11.111dmg

This is almost a best case scenario for the chaplains and probably is great at lower points or in a meta with less tough units.

You must get the litany off or you lose almost half the output and 3+ even with reroll is mess reliable than we want on such a model.

The character chaplains only wound t7 on 3+ while meph and cap wounds on 2s. On t8 they wound on 4+ while cap is 3+ and meph still on 2s. Against models with 2+ saves or 3+ saves with no melee invul(like most t8 models) the extra ap on meph, Astorath and cap is very relevant. And against units with 2-4 wounds the captain, and partly astorath, is also way better due to flat 4 damage.

Smash captains do their role much better than any of the other options and cant really be replaced. That is to kill knights, t8 tanks and units like centurions without the opponent really being able to stop him due to ignore overwatch and insane movement and flat 4.

The other characters are great as well but not against the same targets but if you get some buffs, 2 of them or lucky they can do a caps job in a pinch.

Dont really see why you would ever not use a TH on a captain unless very low points or why use a smash chaplain when we already have 2 amazing chaplains that require no extra cp to be effective. They might not be able to wound t7/t8 on 2s but they have better abilities, more attacks, use less cp, and are more reliable hitters. The smash chaplain is inbetween the named chaplains and the smash captain but cant do either job as well and if not getting his litany off way worse than both.

Im gonna run with Lemartes, mephy and a smash captain in most of my lists and have them do slightly different things. Even though they do kinda the same for their points against the 3+ t6 or below multiwound models they do everything else very different and cant replace each other.

We still have the best, due to how reliable he is and not in max damage self buffed, smash captain by far of all the marine chapters and should still take him. If you are willing to pay 100+ pts already and spend a ton of cp in the charge/fight phase just pay that extra 40 for the TH and 2 cp for giving him a WL trait and death visions. It is worth it to pay 25-30% extra for twice the output on the best guided missile in the game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
We have a way to lock units in melee, it's called tri pointing, or taking a hostage.

I think its too unreliable against a good player. Like if his models in a unit are close enough to each other you cant wrap them individually and then you need to wrap the whole unit. Or if he have anything with fly or just other things, like certain terrain or other units, also blocking the way tripointing is impossible. And if the only units he lets you wrap can hit back hard it it probably wont be possible either. If you hit him and kills models he can remove them so you cant tripoint and if you only consolidate in they can hit back enough to seriously hurt your models.

Tripointing is extremely powerful against someone who dont play lots of melee and know exactly how the fight phase work and you can abuse it but against a knowing opponent who is willing to sacrifice something rather than do a "perfect" screen with each guardsmen spaced out 2" in a 30" line tri pointing is damn hard.

 p5freak wrote:
We have a way to lock units in melee, it's called tri pointing, or taking a hostage.

As mentioned above, tri-pointing is great against a player who doesn't execute the assault phase very well and is no use against units with fly. I was really needing to engage my opponents big unit of warlocks on jetbikes as they had a strat that let them fallback from combat after they attacked. Also tri-pointing required certain situations and positioning that are not always possible once your units have taken a pounding and you need to engage multiple targets.

One last thing from my game, the strat that lets any unit heroic intervene is game winning. My opponent tried to engage and kill my sang guard and was hoping to leave my termies out of the fight, no such luck for him :-)

 p5freak wrote:
We have a way to lock units in melee, it's called tri pointing, or taking a hostage.

It's not reliable, though.

Which are the best countermeasures you guys found to start second?

Only hide as best as you can, and leaving in reserve as many units as you can?

Reserves are not necessarily the answer.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Which are the best countermeasures you guys found to start second?

Only hide as best as you can, and leaving in reserve as many units as you can?

Hide as much as you can is usually the best answer. Even if you have to take the -1 to hit for moving heavy weapons you're better off not getting shot than being dead. Units with advanced deployment can help with this too. Scouts, Infiltrators and Incursors can all deploy anywhere outside of 9" from the enemy and that greatly increases the number of hiding places on the board. Just be careful not to put them too close to the enemy or they'll get charged and likely die. Reserves can help too but one of the problems with close combat reserve armies is the lack of reliability bringing in assault troops that need a 9" charge.

Slipspace wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Which are the best countermeasures you guys found to start second?

Only hide as best as you can, and leaving in reserve as many units as you can?

Hide as much as you can is usually the best answer. Even if you have to take the -1 to hit for moving heavy weapons you're better off not getting shot than being dead. Units with advanced deployment can help with this too. Scouts, Infiltrators and Incursors can all deploy anywhere outside of 9" from the enemy and that greatly increases the number of hiding places on the board. Just be careful not to put them too close to the enemy or they'll get charged and likely die. Reserves can help too but one of the problems with close combat reserve armies is the lack of reliability bringing in assault troops that need a 9" charge.

With the new RedThirst it is a bit easier assaulting from reserves. You need 8’, and some more units may reroll charge dices. The new relic, DC with Lemartes, the 3d6 strat.

Who know the math for assaulting 8’ with reroll of all or one dice?

The problem is clearing the way in T1 after taking a full turn of fare. Which units could do it best (staying alive and clearing chaffs)?

The Deer Hunter wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Which are the best countermeasures you guys found to start second?

Only hide as best as you can, and leaving in reserve as many units as you can?

Hide as much as you can is usually the best answer. Even if you have to take the -1 to hit for moving heavy weapons you're better off not getting shot than being dead. Units with advanced deployment can help with this too. Scouts, Infiltrators and Incursors can all deploy anywhere outside of 9" from the enemy and that greatly increases the number of hiding places on the board. Just be careful not to put them too close to the enemy or they'll get charged and likely die. Reserves can help too but one of the problems with close combat reserve armies is the lack of reliability bringing in assault troops that need a 9" charge.

With the new RedThirst it is a bit easier assaulting from reserves. You need 8’, and some more units may reroll charge dices. The new relic, DC with Lemartes, the 3d6 strat.

Who know the math for assaulting 8’ with reroll of all or one dice?

The problem is clearing the way in T1 after taking a full turn of fare. Which units could do it best (staying alive and clearing chaffs)?

8+ on 2D6 is 41.66% chance, so less than half. Re-rolls make the probabilities a bit more difficult because you may only want to re-roll a single dice rather than the whole thing, even if you have the Angel's Wing or Lemartes to do a full re-roll. Rolling a 6 and 1, for example, on a crucial charge, you'd be better off re-rolling the 1 rather than both dice. But then you might want to save that re-roll for a different charge later in the phase. This is where BA start to show their problems, because co-ordinated Deep Strike assaults are very difficult in 40k due to the dice. They may work, but likely won't without significant luck or CP investment (sometimes both). Even then, failing to get 1 or 2 important buffing characters into position to help the assaulting units can also be problematic. Compare that to castling up around a Chapter Master and Lt with an IH list and you see why the Devastator doctrine is so superior to assault.

For chaff clearing, Intercessors with auto bolt rifles are your best bet, but I'm also thinking Incursors can get the job done with early charges as their paired combat blades, plus bolter fire should be good for clearing lighter units and they fill out Troops slots as well. The problem BA will still have, I think, is getting the balance right between assault elements and shooting. Technically, we have enough assault options to do everything - remove chaff, kill elite infantry, kill tanks - but if you invest in effective options for all that you have no viable ranged support at all.

I did the math in excel:

9 inch charge: 27.78%
9 inch charge reroll 1 dice: 52.31%
9 inch charge reroll 2 dice: 47.84%
9 inch charge reroll either 1 or 2 dice: 56.94%

8 inch charge: 41.67%
8 inch charge reroll 1 dice: 68.06%
8 inch charge reroll 2 dice: 65.97%
8 inch charge reroll either 1 or 2 dice: 72.45%

7 inch charge: 58.33%
7 inch charge reroll 1 dice: 80.56%
7 inch charge reroll 2 dice: 82.64%
7 inch charge reroll either 1 or 2 dice: 84.95%

So I see everyone saying to take Powerfist for SG, but what about gun wise? Keep that stock, or should i use Plasma pistols? As for death company ive seen several different load outs based on number of thunder hammers taken. My list uses all chainswords. Should i have a certain number of thunder hammers per 5 DC in my units?

I'm not convinced on the all PF all the time for SG, at most half for me. I've never found any of the other gun options to be any good over the years and with AB going to 0 points there is no point in upgrading IMHO.
1 in 5 is the general concensus for DC TH's. Also bolters instead of pistols.

Pre CA/BoB powerfist were the only good weapon but now it depends. If a Sanguinary priest is near and you dont need str 8-10 then go for mostly swords. If not mostly axes. If you need anti tank go for mostly fists. Mixing axes or swords with fists work well but I see no real point in mixing swords with axes except for looks. I did like 2 inferno pistols before when thr difference in price were only 4pts each but I wouldnt pay 9pts for them when the bolter is free and got buffed. New stratagems and tactical doctrine turn 2(which is most likely turn to use the bolters) makes the decision easy. Always bolter, always.

I see. My lists lack anti tank outside of the smash captain and the SG with powerfists. I have hellblasters in one list but I'm possibly going to drop those for other options.

Also, where on earth would I even get more fists? I was building part of my first 5 and I only saw a single fist on the sprue. Ebay didn't seem to have any bits sellers for the fist. Do most just take them from like tactical squads and go that route?

Vanguard vets and Death Company. 7 out of my nine SG fists are from VV, SG and DC boxes. Dont know where I got my other 2. You could do as I did and magnetise the right arm and just start with 2 fists and then add the others over time. At least you dont need all fists anymore so you dont lose much by having sub optimal melee weapon load outs.

I also put magnets on both the right shoulder and left hand on one guy so I can have 1 guy with a 2handed sword or axe for looks. Glad they reduced the price on his weapon so I dont pay 7 extra points for cool.

demonwalker wrote:
So I see everyone saying to take Powerfist for SG, but what about gun wise? Keep that stock, or should i use Plasma pistols? As for death company ive seen several different load outs based on number of thunder hammers taken. My list uses all chainswords. Should i have a certain number of thunder hammers per 5 DC in my units?

Angelus Boltguns are the way to go for SG now. The reasons you used to see plasma pistols and PF on SG was because GW messed the initial pricing up so badly those were actually cheaper than the default loadout. Now that the other weapons are about the same cost as the PF it's not quite so clear which is better and will depend on the unit's role. The good thing is I don't think you can really go too far wrong with any loadout of CC weapons on the SG now. They all have their uses and the pricing is about right on all of them. Generally I prefer either swords or fists.

demonwalker wrote:
I see. My lists lack anti tank outside of the smash captain and the SG with powerfists. I have hellblasters in one list but I'm possibly going to drop those for other options.

Also, where on earth would I even get more fists? I was building part of my first 5 and I only saw a single fist on the sprue. Ebay didn't seem to have any bits sellers for the fist. Do most just take them from like tactical squads and go that route?

Your ebay must be different from mine. When i search for power fist on ebay.com i get 8303 hits. The first page already shows 20+ power fists.

 p5freak wrote:

demonwalker wrote:
I see. My lists lack anti tank outside of the smash captain and the SG with powerfists. I have hellblasters in one list but I'm possibly going to drop those for other options.

Also, where on earth would I even get more fists? I was building part of my first 5 and I only saw a single fist on the sprue. Ebay didn't seem to have any bits sellers for the fist. Do most just take them from like tactical squads and go that route?

Your ebay must be different from mine. When i search for power fist on ebay.com i get 8303 hits. The first page already shows 20+ power fists.

So people are using powerfists from other models. I did a search of SG powerfists, then just SG bits. This is my first time really paying any attention to a normal space marine army so I figured the SG ones might be different from say a tactical squad or terminator fist.

Looks better if you vary the fists and not only have the exact same fist on everyone. Gives you many more poses.

demonwalker wrote:
So I see everyone saying to take Powerfist for SG, but what about gun wise? Keep that stock, or should i use Plasma pistols? As for death company ive seen several different load outs based on number of thunder hammers taken. My list uses all chainswords. Should i have a certain number of thunder hammers per 5 DC in my units?

For SG I take an even mix of Swords and Fists with everyone just running the stock Angelus Bolter.

For DC, I would not run Hammers at all. Power fists are more cost effective since they are so much cheaper. For the cost of 3 Hammers, you can take 5 fists which will be slightly better on average against large targets and much better against infantry due to extra attacks. Plus the Fist guys can take a shooting weapon too. OK you don't take DC for the firepower but a couple of extra bolters are always welcome.

What is good with hammers over fists, especially in smaller units, is that you need to lose more models before losing hammers than if you had fists. When its 3 models left in a squad TH greatly outperform fists. If using 12+ models then it doesnt really matter but for me the DC squad size is dependent on left over points and are usually 8-10 models and using fists over hammers would mean I risk loosing good attacks on normal overwatches. After a knight/low overwatch and gets a round of stomps off there usually isnt many models left in the squad for a second round of fighting and using Honor the Chapter with 3-4 hammers is much more likely to finish it off than if it were fists.

Also better when double charging 2 things that have vastly different stat profiles. Lets say you have 4 hammers and 6 fists to make math easier and charge a squad of ork boys and a battlewagon. You want fists/hammers on wagon and swords on the orks. Both versions deal the same damage to the vehicle but the TH squad will have 2 extra guys with chainswords to kill the boys.

The only real situations I can think of when you want fists over hammers and not just a cheaper power axe or more Chainswords are against units with 4w. There the flat 3D isnt much better than d3 unlike almost everything else with multiple wounds. Or when having ton of buffs and cp spent on the unit. Like Librarian and Sanguinor giving extra attacks but if spending so much perhaps its just better to go with hammers anyway.

Fists sounds better than hammers on smaller squads like assault or tactical marines in which you just want to guarantee you can kill other smaller squads or maybe on support characters on which you dont want to pay 31 extra points. But on melee units which are geared to kill harder stuff I feel hammers>fists overall. On 5 man squads of DC with a single upgraded weapon I would take a pf over hammer but thats an harassing unit.

Klickor wrote:
What is good with hammers over fists, especially in smaller units, is that you need to lose more models before losing hammers than if you had fists. When its 3 models left in a squad TH greatly outperform fists. If using 12+ models then it doesnt really matter but for me the DC squad size is dependent on left over points and are usually 8-10 models and using fists over hammers would mean I risk loosing good attacks on normal overwatches. After a knight/low overwatch and gets a round of stomps off there usually isnt many models left in the squad for a second round of fighting and using Honor the Chapter with 3-4 hammers is much more likely to finish it off than if it were fists.

Also better when double charging 2 things that have vastly different stat profiles. Lets say you have 4 hammers and 6 fists to make math easier and charge a squad of ork boys and a battlewagon. You want fists/hammers on wagon and swords on the orks. Both versions deal the same damage to the vehicle but the TH squad will have 2 extra guys with chainswords to kill the boys.

The only real situations I can think of when you want fists over hammers and not just a cheaper power axe or more Chainswords are against units with 4w. There the flat 3D isnt much better than d3 like almost everything else with multiple wounds. Or when having ton of buffs and cp spent on the unit. Like Librarian and Sanguinor giving extra attacks but if spending so much perhaps its just better to go with hammers anyway.

Fists sounds better than hammers on smaller squads like assault or tactical marines in which you just want to guarantee you can kill other smaller squads or maybe on support characters on which you dont want to pay 31 extra points. But on melee units which are geared to kill harder stuff I feel hammers>fists overall. On 5 man squads of DC with a single upgraded weapon I would take a pf over hammer but thats an harassing unit.

Agreed. This is one of those cases where I don't think a simple damage comparison is the best way to analyse the two options. There's a lot of value in condensing the heavy hitters into fewer models as it maintains your damage more consistently. Also, there's a lot to be said for the certainty of 3 damage per wound. I've lost count of the number of PFs I've rolled a 1 for on damage when all I needed was a 2, or I've failed to kill a model with FNP because it passed one out of the 2 saves it took, etc. I don't think PF or TH are better or worse than one another and both have their merits for the points they cost.