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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Titomcd wrote:
Thanks - does a tank-hunting unit of DC (hammers/fists/inferno) count? Or should I be looking at devastators/baal preds

Nothing wrong with a few hammers/fists for hunting big game with your DC. However they are not reliably able to engage the targets you want. Opponents can screen their vehicles/monsters from CC much more easily than they can from shooting.

I would always include some long-ranged anti-tank in your army and Lascannons are about the easiest and one of the most points efficient ways of doing it. Dev squads, Razorbacks and even the humble Tac squad are all viable lascannon caddies as long as you field them in decent volumes. Grav cannons make an interesting alternative and are also great at mulching infantry but are expensive and shorter ranged. melta is very short ranged and is harder to get close to the target in this edition.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in us
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Isle of Man, United Kingdom

U02dah4 wrote:
I dont see the problem personally the strategem targets predators and baal predators have the predator keyword so its a valid target

Just as strike of the archangels can target assault terminators and wisdom of the ancients can effect a librarian dreadnought


Strike of the Archangels and Wisdom of the Ancients call out keywords which are in bold: BLOOD ANGELS TERMINATOR unit and BLOOD ANGELS DREADNOUGHT respectively.

Kill shot calls out the Predator unit name not the PREDATOR keyword.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:09:35


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
Anybody using a stormtalon/hawk? I dont have much use for a razorback and a predator is kind of slow for my fast moving force. Its a way to get some lascannons on the field and the hawk isnt so bad with skimmers and jump pack units being around

I haven't tried it yet but I think an airwing of 2 Talons and a Stormraven could bring plenty of anti-tank. Not sure points efficient it is but I plan to give it a try.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm definitely going to include a Stormraven in my BA force, and since my force will be mostly Infantry I plan to kit it out to hunt armor. I also plan to embark a DC dreadnought in it for additional tank hunting (with fists of course).

Just not sure I will have enough points left over for talons as you suggest, though it would be nice.

I also am struggling to find points for my long-range anti tank.

I'm wanting to take 15 DC and a decent size squad of SG. Troops will consist of 2 5 man intercessor squads and either a tac squad or scouts (trying to keep the third TROOP cheap). Stormraven + DC dread, + Characters (ancient with relic banner, lieutenant with power sword, close combat captain, and sanguinary priest.)

I haven't counted out the exact points yet but I dont believe I have much left over after all that :(
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Raven can bring 6 long range anti-tank shots. Fit in a couple of tacs with lascannons and you might be okay.
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






My last few BA games, I've ran four 5 man tac squads, 2 with Missile launchers and 2 with Heavy Bolters. I've also ran a 5 man Dev squad with 2 Missile launchers and 2 Lascannons embarked in a Plasma Obliterator.

Both games, I'd have been better off with the Missile launchers being Lascannons. I thought I'd enjoy the option of going anti-horde with the ML if I'd like, but I think I've only done it once in the past 2 games. Meanwhile, if they'd been Lascannons instead, I'm sure it'd have helped against the armor we're bound to always face.

Also, the Plasma Obliterator has proven to be ridiculously volatile when it comes to number of shots and damage output. The first game I rolled 12 shots two times, but because it's BS is 5+, managed to miss most of the die rolls. The second game, we only played 3 turns...it dealt maybe 6 or 8 total damage. On the plus side, it DOES soak up a ton of fire, is hard to actually damage, and totally protects the Devastator squad who actually DOES get some work done. I'm always taking it out of my lists, but it's painted and has a purpose, so it usually finds a way back in...

Having said all that, everything above isn't enough long-ranged firepower to realistically deal with armored gunlines. Because the new codex has fun new stratagems, I've replaced my Stormraven and Lascannon Predator with Sanguinary Guard and other Jump / Drop units, but that's probably a mistake. I dunno...more playtesting is required.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




My 2K list has 900 ish points of gunline and 1100 pts of aggression. The 900 pts includes a jump lieutenant that can upon wings of fire into the aggressive section.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm going to start out running 3 AC/LC or tri-las preds as I did back in 5th and 6th, although every time I see those Xiphons, I think, 3 of those would be so crazy good and they are only 20 points more than the tri-las, and 30 more than the AC/LC preds.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 Karhedron wrote:
 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
Anybody using a stormtalon/hawk? I dont have much use for a razorback and a predator is kind of slow for my fast moving force. Its a way to get some lascannons on the field and the hawk isnt so bad with skimmers and jump pack units being around

I haven't tried it yet but I think an airwing of 2 Talons and a Stormraven could bring plenty of anti-tank. Not sure points efficient it is but I plan to give it a try.


Only one Flyer, xiphon interceptor. Keep in mind that flyers can't hold objectives, three flyers makes it easier for the opponent to wipe out all your ground units.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




p5freak wrote:
bobafett012 wrote:
Yeah, I don't think Baals suck at all, at least the dakka baal, but they are over costed by a good bit i think.


Tell me a good reason (no fluff) why i should pay 30 pts. more for a baal pred with twin assault cannon. Cant use killshot. Cant shoot any of his guns after advancing. Cant transport models. Can run away up to 24" though with the lucifer engine stratagem, wow.



I use both a Quad las Predator, a Dakka Baal w/HBs and 2 Razors and I've found that both predators draw a lot more enemy attention in the early game. My Razors last a lot longer because of it. Sometimes they even survive the game.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





How would you construct. 1500 point list from 2 DC starters? Plus one captain in terminator armor. Randomly found one at store for a few bucks.

If I am engaging in a new army I’m going to need a game plan.

For those who don’t know what’s in the box. It’s 15 DC, 1 Chaplain, 1 Dred. So 2 boxes would be 30 DC, 2 Chaplains, 2 Dred’s.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/19 21:48:40


Shoot them.
Shoot them some more.
Then ask the survivors to join the Greater Good.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ishotfirst wrote:
How would you construct. 1500 point list from 2 DC starters? Plus one captain in terminator armor. Randomly found one at store for a few bucks.

If I am engaging in a new army I’m going to need a game plan.

For those who don’t know what’s in the box. It’s 15 DC, 1 Chaplain, 1 Dred. So 2 boxes would be 30 DC, 2 Chaplains, 2 Dred’s.


Break the DC into 5 or 10 man squads, use 1 chaplain as Lemartes, 1 libby dread, and 1 DC dread, and the last chaplain as either a regular JP chaplain or astorath. I'd break the DC into enough squads so that you could get 2 vanguards so you at least get 5 CP, which is still very low for BA but, if that's all you got right now then you'll just have to make due. With left over points, add in CC weapons to DC.

If that's all I had, i'd start with 4x 5 man DC squads and 1x 10 man DC squad. that plus your DC dread would give you the elites for 2 vanguards. Drop your biggest DC squad, and a 5 man squad with Lemartes, and the chaplain/astorath on a flank, and start your other 3 DC squads, plus the libby and DC dreads on the table. You can wings the Libby dread to get him across the table. You'd have enough CPs to forlorn 1 DC squad, and decent of angels another, and still have 1 left for upon wings of fire. Mechanized armies would be pretty brutal to fight though.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





bobafett012 wrote:
 Ishotfirst wrote:
How would you construct. 1500 point list from 2 DC starters? Plus one captain in terminator armor. Randomly found one at store for a few bucks.

If I am engaging in a new army I’m going to need a game plan.

For those who don’t know what’s in the box. It’s 15 DC, 1 Chaplain, 1 Dred. So 2 boxes would be 30 DC, 2 Chaplains, 2 Dred’s.


Break the DC into 5 or 10 man squads, use 1 chaplain as Lemartes, 1 libby dread, and 1 DC dread, and the last chaplain as either a regular JP chaplain or astorath. I'd break the DC into enough squads so that you could get 2 vanguards so you at least get 5 CP, which is still very low for BA but, if that's all you got right now then you'll just have to make due. With left over points, add in CC weapons to DC.

If that's all I had, i'd start with 4x 5 man DC squads and 1x 10 man DC squad. that plus your DC dread would give you the elites for 2 vanguards. Drop your biggest DC squad, and a 5 man squad with Lemartes, and the chaplain/astorath on a flank, and start your other 3 DC squads, plus the libby and DC dreads on the table. You can wings the Libby dread to get him across the table. You'd have enough CPs to forlorn 1 DC squad, and decent of angels another, and still have 1 left for upon wings of fire. Mechanized armies would be pretty brutal to fight though.




Should I forgo one of the DC Boxes and get a BA starter box or a 3 box of dreds? It would still get me 1500.... I think. Less start up cost as well. The problem with the Get started box is lack of the extra 5 foot troops.... I’m willing to bet I can find cheep somewhere but would probably be standard space Marine.

Shoot them.
Shoot them some more.
Then ask the survivors to join the Greater Good.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




BA are very CP heavy, so a battalion is a good start because you are at 6 CPs from jump. I think scouts and intercessors are our best troops to take to get your battalion, not sure what's in the BA starter box. I wouldn't bother with the dread box. The libby dread is really the only one I would consider as it can't be targeted since it's a character and can use the wings psychic power to get across the table very quickly.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



San Antonio TX

Got to properly try out the codex this weekend, fielded an infantry-only army to try out some units.

The list I used:
Spoiler:

Blood Angels - 3 Detachments, 10 CP, 1997pts, 133PL

++Battalion Detachment - Blood Angels (633pts, 33PL)++
HQ:
-Lieutenant - chainsword and bolt pistol (60pts, 4PL)
-‎Lemartes (129pts, 7PL)

Troops:
-‎Tactical Squad - 3x boltgun, lascannon, plasma pistol and chainsword (97pts, 5PL)
-‎Tactical Squad - 3x boltgun, lascannon, plasma pistol and chainsword (97pts, 5PL)
-‎Tactical Squad - 3x boltgun, lascannon, plasma pistol and chainsword (97pts, 5PL)

Elites:
-Sternguard Veterans - lascannon, lascannon, combi-plasma, special issue boltgun, power sword and special issue boltgun (153pts, 7PL)

++Battalion Detachment - Blood Angels (824pts, 63PL)++
HQ:
-Captain - chainsword and storm bolter (76pts, 5PL)
-‎Chief Librarian Mephiston - (145pts, 8P)
-‎Powers: Wings of Sangunius, Quickening, Unleash Rage

Troops:
-Scout Squad - 4x combat knife and bolt pistol, chainsword and bolt pistol (55pts, 6PL)
-Scout Squad - 4x combat knife and bolt pistol, chainsword and bolt pistol (55pts, 6PL)
-‎Scout Squad - boltgun, 2x astartes shotgun, heavy bolter, chainsword and boltgun (65pts, 6PL)

Elites:
-‎Death Company - jumo packs, power fist and inferno pistol, 2x thunder hammer, 2x power sword and plasma pistol, 10x chainsword and bolt pistol (343pts, 24PL)
-‎Death Company - 5x chainsword and boltgun (85pts, 8PL)

++Vanguad Detachment - Blood Angels (540pts, 39PL)++
HQ:
-Sanguinary Priest - jump pack, power sword and bolt pistol (90pts, 5PL)

Elites:
-‎Sanguinary Guard - 2x angelus bolter and encarmine sword, plasma pistol and encarmine sword, plasma pistol and encarmine axe, angelus bolter and encarmine axe (191pts, 20PL)
-Sanguinary Ancient (*WARLORD*) - death mask, power fist and inferno pistol (107pts, 6PL)
-‎Warlord Trait: Soulwarden
-‎Relic: Standard of Sacrifice
-‎Vanguard Veteran Squad - jump packs, storm shield and inferno pistol, storm shield and thunder hammer, storm shield and power axe, storm shield and chainsword (152pts, 8PL)


Some notes:

- Sanguinary Guard with the ancient as warlord with Standard of Sacrifice is great. Rerolling all failed attacks and wounds of 1 in the fight phase is great, plus the 5+ FNP makes them great without the need of a captain or lieutenant. How many more times can I say great?

- Scouts for screening is excellent. Give them free guns (bolter/shotgun) or knives. Ironically enough, my shooty scouts in cover died quicker than my cc scouts in the open preventing deep strike from some terminators (I played against Death Guard)

- The Sanguinary Priest wasn't worth its points. I was able to heal some SG with it, but the +1 strength isn't really that important anymore with red thirst being what it is. But maybe I used it wrong. I kept it around SG the entire match, so maybe it's better around other units.

- Lemmy with a bunch of DC is fun. I was able to get off forlorn fury on my foot DC, which was helpful, but I wouldn't want to leave 15 in the open at the start of the game, hoping I win the rolloff. I will be trying death visions with a lieutenant next game I play to see how that helps with Lemartes.

- 10 command points wasn't enough. Once I get my three scout bike squads, I will be adjusting my list into a brigade:
Spoiler:


++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [127 PL, 2000pts] ++

+ Heavy Support +

Whirlwind [5 PL, 104pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

Whirlwind [5 PL, 104pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

Whirlwind [5 PL, 104pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

+ HQ +

Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]

Lemartes [7 PL, 129pts]

Lieutenants [5 PL, 90pts]
. Lieutenant: Jump Pack, Power fist
- CP for Death Visions of Sanguinus

+ Elites +

Death Company [27 PL, 338pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 105pts]: 2. Artisan of War, Inferno pistol, Power fist, Standard of Sacrifice, Warlord

Sanguinary Guard [20 PL, 194pts]
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Plasma pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine axe, Plasma pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 84pts]
. Scout Biker: Astartes grenade launcher
. Scout Biker: Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Chainsword, Twin boltgun

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 84pts]
. Scout Biker: Astartes grenade launcher
. Scout Biker: Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Chainsword, Twin boltgun

Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 84pts]
. Scout Biker: Astartes grenade launcher
. Scout Biker: Twin boltgun
. Scout Biker Sergeant: Chainsword, Twin boltgun

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout: Combat knife
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

++ Total: [127 PL, 2000pts] ++

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/20 01:04:44


 
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight





Sticksville, Texas

senor_flojo wrote:
Got to properly try out the codex this weekend, fielded an infantry-only army to try out some units.

- The Sanguinary Priest wasn't worth its points. I was able to heal some SG with it, but the +1 strength isn't really that important anymore with red thirst being what it is. But maybe I used it wrong. I kept it around SG the entire match, so maybe it's better around other units.


The only thing I have my Sanguinary priest for is that he is a dirt cheap (for a Marine) HQ choice, and I keep him near my Devastators to keep them shooting longer. He halfway makes his points back if he brings a single Devastator with Missile Launcher or Lascannon back to life. Well worth it to me.

My last game I had to use a CP to teleport my Vanguard Vets back towards my lines to take out a big blob I wasn't able to shoot to pieces, and even bringing one more Vet back to the game is a big help, with each Vet throwing 4 attacks (with Unleash Rage) it adds up. Also the +1 Strength is huge when playing against Death Guard, and can mean the difference between doing enough wounds to kill a unit of Plague Marines or not.

He won't always be useful, but he always is included in my take all comers list.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Is a priest worth it over a novitiate if the hq slot doesnt need filling?


I feel like the red thirst kind of gives us that buff regardless and hes just there to die

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 05:08:50


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 THUNDERHAMMER wrote:
Is a priest worth it over a novitiate if the hq slot doesnt need filling?


I feel like the red thirst kind of gives us that buff regardless and hes just there to die


Do you think he's worth buffing DC with chainsword to S5, so they wound T4 on 2+ or T5 on 3+ with red thirst ?
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



San Antonio TX

I would imagine wounding on a 3+ against T4 and a 4+ on T5 isn't nearly as bad as it was before we got red thirst. A squad of cc scouts can be a threat now with 11 attacks per 5.

I don't do mathhammer, but I look at 4+ being 50% chance of wound--not too shabby. With a 3+, you're only improving roughly 16.6%, which may or may not be worth 69+ points.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

The question was if the sang priest is worth the points over a sang novitiate. Thats only a 14 pts. difference. I think increasing the chance to wound by 16,7% for a 15 model DC squad is well worth 14 pts.
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight





Sticksville, Texas

p5freak wrote:
The question was if the sang priest is worth the points over a sang novitiate. Thats only a 14 pts. difference. I think increasing the chance to wound by 16,7% for a 15 model DC squad is well worth 14 pts.


Yeah, well worth it for a 14 point increase. I see no reason to ever take the Novitiate.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



San Antonio TX

p5freak wrote:
The question was if the sang priest is worth the points over a sang novitiate. Thats only a 14 pts. difference. I think increasing the chance to wound by 16,7% for a 15 model DC squad is well worth 14 pts.


Ah, I'm just thinking outright. Good point with the 14 points. But you're still having to work with keeping him in the bubble. I suppose revives may make it worthwhile, but you're realistically getting one or two revives out of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 11:18:42


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Its no problem to keep the priest within 6" of a 15 model unit. Just daisy chain them. Even if the priest fails his charge his aura will still work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still can't decide which psychic powers to use for my Libby dread himself. Quickening is nice but it's a 7. Wings of sanguinius is only 5 and is a safe charge after deepstriking with the dread drop pod but no D3 additional attacks. The +1 attack is wasted on himself. I have mixed feelings about the shield. Only 5+ seems weak. If it's FNP that would be great.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/20 12:37:09


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I find priests now, not to be very useful and the points are better spent else where since the red thirst essentially does what a priest used to do. In almost every case I find i'd just rather have more models that can actually kill stuff.

I tried out apothecaries extensively in my DW army and just came to the conclusion that the resurrecting portion of their special ability is not very good at all if that's why your taking them.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

You can't add more models to a 15 model DC unit. Also a sang priest gives S+1, apothecary does not.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Priests give an anti-elite buff in a game with a million ways to kill elites efficiently. And zero ways to kill hordes.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




I’ll definitely be testing out a Sang Priest, and I’ll likely never take a novitiate. I’m still at a loss as to how to loadout my Vanguard Vets. Storm shield, claws, and double chainsword are the only thing they can do better than DC. Double chainsword is reasonable for getting clogged up with tarpits; on the charge DC can match it. Storm shield is good for tanking overwatch from a tank, etc. if you charge with hammers. Claws make them a premier unit for shredding MEQ but DC with power swords do the same job fairly well anyway. At this point I don’t know what to do.

Similar story for Sang Guard; DC and VV both hit harder; while the SG have more staying power. I’m not sure how to properly leverage that staying power as at this point I need to wipe things and move on, because the next turn the enemy falls back and shoots. More bodies seems as advantageous as more durable bodies in that situation so I’m still struggling to fill a niche with the idea of SG. So far DC seem like the most versatile and effective unit of the three. It really surprises me they have as many weapon options as they do.

Sang Ancient Warlord with relic banner flying in with SG seems to be the main way to capitalize on their strengths, and with only 2 attacks they really need those rerolls.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




SG are awesome vs multiwound targets for sure.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bremon wrote:
I’ll definitely be testing out a Sang Priest, and I’ll likely never take a novitiate. I’m still at a loss as to how to loadout my Vanguard Vets. Storm shield, claws, and double chainsword are the only thing they can do better than DC. Double chainsword is reasonable for getting clogged up with tarpits; on the charge DC can match it. Storm shield is good for tanking overwatch from a tank, etc. if you charge with hammers. Claws make them a premier unit for shredding MEQ but DC with power swords do the same job fairly well anyway. At this point I don’t know what to do.

Similar story for Sang Guard; DC and VV both hit harder; while the SG have more staying power. I’m not sure how to properly leverage that staying power as at this point I need to wipe things and move on, because the next turn the enemy falls back and shoots. More bodies seems as advantageous as more durable bodies in that situation so I’m still struggling to fill a niche with the idea of SG. So far DC seem like the most versatile and effective unit of the three. It really surprises me they have as many weapon options as they do.

Sang Ancient Warlord with relic banner flying in with SG seems to be the main way to capitalize on their strengths, and with only 2 attacks they really need those rerolls.


I like the Sanguinor with a squad of SG. 3 attacks a piece, re-rolls to hit, backed up by a very powerful HQ that can fallback towards a different unit and charge again.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




I feel like needing a named character to maximize effectiveness is a trap to fall into and isn’t a notch in the “pro” column for SG.

I also don’t see how they excel against multi-wound targets. For a similar price point I don’t see how DC or VV with hammers don’t out damage SG against armour or elite infantry. I love the models and will buy some but from trying to formulate a plan for them they seem to sit in an awkward spot. I’m not convinced by their D3 damage weaponry vs hammers on cheaper bodies.
   
 
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