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Spado wrote:

Let s be honest: the way you adress your ideas is disgusting and you shall read what you are typing before sending: how in the world am Iincreasing the drops when you need 3 troops slots for your battalion? Hello?
You have the attitude of a 3 years old boy it s time for you to grow up don't you think?

Lets see. You need 3 standard units and 2 HQ units for a battalion. If i have 3 units of 5 scouts all of them can go in a LR crusader, plus 1 HQ. The deployment count is 2. The LR crusader plus 1 HQ. Your 3 units of 5 model intercessors cant go in the LR crusader, your deployment count is 4. The 2 HQ enter the LR crusader, but your intercessors cant. A repulsor can only transport 10 intercessor models. Your deployment count is reduced by 1, but its still more than 2. That how intercessors increase your deployment count. I suggest you learn the deployment rules before you post.

Are you serious about placing scouts inside a land raider? Really? Please enlighten me because I always thought that scouts are there to deny deep strike to key units, not for sitting into a land raider.

Look at all those Tournament-winning Blood Angels with Scout-spam in Land Raider Crusader!! Of course he is serious...

Spado wrote:
Are you serious about placing scouts inside a land raider? Really? Please enlighten me because I always thought that scouts are there to deny deep strike to key units, not for sitting into a land raider.

So, denying deepstrike is the only way to play them ? I disagree.

As long as plasma guns and other unpleasantness fall from the sky, that's basically what scouts are for in my view.

Yup, putting them in a LRC might cut drops, but it's still silly, because running them in a LRC isn't making any use of their best skillset. So, congrats (?), you cut drops by taking units out of their best battlefield role.

Let's say you do field them in a LRC, probably because you desperately want the alpha and the CPs, so drop count is paramount. Do we really want three squads of scouts in a LR in an alpha list? IDK, but it doesn't seem super sexy. Also, scouts are cheap troops for CPs, but that benefit also disappears when you stuff them in a LRC (the battle field role of which is never to transport scouts, in any good list). You're wasting the scouts and (mostly) the transport capacity of the LRC, which costs too much to be efficient as a scout delivery system.

Sorry man, I don't see it. Maybe I've missed something though...

 Fenris-77 wrote:

Let's say you do field them in a LRC, probably because you desperately want the alpha and the CPs, so drop count is paramount. Do we really want three squads of scouts in a LR in an alpha list? IDK, but it doesn't seem super sexy. Also, scouts are cheap troops for CPs, but that benefit also disappears when you stuff them in a LRC (the battle field role of which is never to transport scouts, in any good list). You're wasting the scouts and (mostly) the transport capacity of the LRC, which costs too much to be efficient as a scout delivery system.

Sorry man, I don't see it. Maybe I've missed something though...

What is the role of the LR crusader ? Its not to transport models ? Enlighten me.

Gotta say, after a weekend that showed BA elements and lists perform extremely well at the LVO, I didn't expect the current conversation to be about how good or bad it is to lower your drop count by jamming 3 scout Squads into a Land Raider...

Have you read this thread Voidwraith? Some people take it upon themselves to be blackholes sucking up all the positivity and excitement.

That said, it’s hard not to be excited at BA doing well at LVO. He was apparently fairly lucky with his matchups but we can all find a silver lining in his high placement and, in my opinion, the Intercessor presence in his list. Too many characters for my liking but just seeing a whole list of the sons of Sanguinius has me feeling more excited for a game this week. Plus, having 20 new jump pack models to use has me feeling good too.

It is positive, because one must expect dark reapers to get faqed.

You need 4 characters for double battalion. BA predilection for large squads makes a brigade hard usually.

Sadly, I heard and watched the stream to confirm. Mark made a big illegal move that had huge ramifications in round 5 of the swiss. He burned the 3d6 charge strat on captain hammer, which got him past a line of berserkers and onto a fire raptor, which he super-lucked out and blew up, crippling a ton of Jared's units that were all around the thing. Jared was ahead and looking like the favorite prior to that.

The issue is that captain hammer did not deep strike or wings of fire that turn, so he couldn't have used the 3d6 charge. So now the only pure BA list to make it to top 8 has an asterisk next to it, not to mention the incredible luck of dodging every eldar matchup all through the Swiss. (Which for anyone who didn't know, he lost to he first eldar he came across in top 8.)

The especially crappy part is that Jared directly asked him if he was allowed to use the stratagem anytime, and he said yes. This means that he likely illegally used the strata in some other games as well.

I think variations of that list could be effective. Very effective.

Good news!

Blood Angels faired best of all Adeptes Asartes chapters at the LVO in the Top 20 - Blood Angel lists saw 4 lists with at least partial elements of Blood Angels in them. ALL of them had Lemartes - 10 - 15 Death Company Jump Packs (2-4 power weapons) in them. Most had DC with SG (Swords) with Sanguinary Ancient, Sanguinor. All but 1 BA list in the top contained elements of AM, Sororitas, or DA.

The only pure Blood Angel list placed in the top 10 and included the above plus 4 Intercessor squads with a unit of scouts and a tac squad for troops. Pure list included Cappy with JP (angels wings) TH SS Artisan of War, Sang Priest with JP chainsword/SB and a JP Libby with staff and SB. Company Ancient and Sang Ancient (Std Sacrifice) in there as well. These units as well as a Mephiston sighting in two of these made an appearance. That's it - no other BA premier units in the top 20 units so if you want to be competitive consider these units highly in your lists

 p5freak wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

Let's say you do field them in a LRC, probably because you desperately want the alpha and the CPs, so drop count is paramount. Do we really want three squads of scouts in a LR in an alpha list? IDK, but it doesn't seem super sexy. Also, scouts are cheap troops for CPs, but that benefit also disappears when you stuff them in a LRC (the battle field role of which is never to transport scouts, in any good list). You're wasting the scouts and (mostly) the transport capacity of the LRC, which costs too much to be efficient as a scout delivery system.

Sorry man, I don't see it. Maybe I've missed something though...

What is the role of the LR crusader ? Its not to transport models ? Enlighten me.

Models? Yes. Scouts? No. I don't really think it needs any more explanation than that.

Hello people.

Still new and experimenting with my BA list, but I have read this thread and I see no one runs sternguard vets, a unit I find very good for their points. Is there any special reasons for this?

I am wondering because I find them a wonderful unit to mount on a Rhino or Razorback, backed up with a lieutenant, move forward, disembark and fire a nice volley with their 30" boltguns at -2AP. They have a cheap strat for +1 to wound with their weapons and 2 AT, that with red thirst can pack a reasonable punch if charging against infantry. I have even tried backing them with a sanguinary priest, so they could wound almost everything at 3+ or 4+ in close combat. All for 90 points for a 5 man squad.

I also have tried them as an anti deepstriking unit or deployment zone defenders, due to their long range and the auspex strat (can´t remember well the name, the one that allows you to shoot at -1 to hit when a unit lands close).

Yes, there are more and suitable options in the army for other roles, but I think they are a very good option for a unit in a mixed role, or if you want some unexpected punch in the shooting phase.

I would appreciate any comments, as I find this unit as essential to my current lists, and maybe I am missing something.

Stormbolters double their rate or fire, which increases their damage output in practically every situation, and doesn’t need a stratagem to be particularly damaging on most targets.

I've got a growing blood angels collection, and I'd love some advice on the general direction to take it?

1) Mephiston in a pod? Is he worth it? Better off Starting on the table? What else do you put in the pod with him?

2) Anti-tank? How do you guy's open up rhinos to get to the juicy contents? Hellblasters?

3) Deathcompany. Why do I see everyone taking them with Chainswords only, wouldn't throwing a couple powerfists / powerswords be worth it in a larger squad? Maybe 1 Thunderhammer in a squad of 15?

4) I've got 3 Rapier Quad Launchers. 4D3 S5 Ap0 indirect shots or 4 S8 Ap-2 dam:3 shots. They seem like a good unit to provide backfield fire support. However, I've never seen them in a blood angel list, why? Are they overpriced (2 pts less than a naked captain)

5) I frequently run Scions. Does a 1-2 punch of shooty/assaulty deep strike work out, or will I get in my own way too much?

ETA: My questions are mainly to help guide me what I paint up as blood angels, and what I resell / paint as space wolves.

Mephiston with Wings of Sanguinius is a better option. Pods suck so bad this edition. Wings gives him the extra mobility he needs to get the job done. He can move 24" in a turn and Rerolls failed Charges. If he doesn't manage to get the charge off, it was because you were after something in your opponent's back corner. A Drop Pod just doesn't do anything good.

Yeah, don't bother with the Drop Pod. It is worthless. I start my Mephiston in a Razorback most of the time. Between the 3.9" deployment away from the vehicle (since he only has to deploy within 3", and not wholly within 3"), plus his 7" move and Wings of Sanguinius, as long as I don't play him like poop he gets to where he wants to be.

I generally put him in there with a 5 man Tac Squad to reduce my deployments and so if the vehicle blows up he is fairly well protected from just being instant killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:
I've got a growing blood angels collection, and I'd love some advice on the general direction to take it?

1) Mephiston in a pod? Is he worth it? Better off Starting on the table? What else do you put in the pod with him?

2) Anti-tank? How do you guy's open up rhinos to get to the juicy contents? Hellblasters?

3) Deathcompany. Why do I see everyone taking them with Chainswords only, wouldn't throwing a couple powerfists / powerswords be worth it in a larger squad? Maybe 1 Thunderhammer in a squad of 15?

4) I've got 3 Rapier Quad Launchers. 4D3 S5 Ap0 indirect shots or 4 S8 Ap-2 dam:3 shots. They seem like a good unit to provide backfield fire support. However, I've never seen them in a blood angel list, why? Are they overpriced (2 pts less than a naked captain)

5) I frequently run Scions. Does a 1-2 punch of shooty/assaulty deep strike work out, or will I get in my own way too much?

ETA: My questions are mainly to help guide me what I paint up as blood angels, and what I resell / paint as space wolves.

2. For anti-tank I generally take Devastators, working on finishing up my fourth 5 man squad with 3 heavy weapons and a Cherub to be baby-sat by a Company Ancient with the relic banner. Nothing better than getting to shoot heavy weapons in retaliation for targeting your Devastators. It makes going second slightly less painful. Been too many games where my Devs get deleted before ever firing a shot. A couple of 5 man Tac Squads with Combi-Melta/Inferno Pistol and a Meltagun in a Rhino is also an option for finishing off a vehicle. I have been trying to make shooty Dreadnoughts be worth their points, but they have been of limited use before being deleted.

3. I personally don't run more than 10 Death Company in a list, even with Leadership buffs from a Chaplain or other source you are risking losing quite a few to morale. Right now mine are all Bolter and Chainsword, and it has worked well. Although the Chainsword lacks any AP, sheer weight of attacks with the To Wound rolls boosted by The Red Thirst seems to work out well, especially is you get off Unleash Rage and spend the 3 CP for them to fight twice. That loadout puts out a decent amount of shooting before they charge as well, it works wonders against in melee anything Toughness 7 or less but against Toughness 8 it struggles really badly. I also like to keep my Death Company cheap since more often than not they are there to shred infantry, or end up engaging my opponents tanks or heavy firepower to neuter it's shooting (last game my Death Company followed an Angel's Wing equipped Librarian into charging 3 Leman Russes to stop them from shooting). I am going to try running a few Power Fists in the squad in the next week or so, but I have my Death Company supported by just a Librarian who is generally able to get Quickening or Wings of Sanguinius off. I rarely run them with a Chaplain because I got tired of him constantly failing his charges and being useless. Plus my Death Company are often charging 3D6 from Deep Strike, so a standard Jump Pack Chaplain often cannot keep up to buff them unless I string my unit back, losing attacks in the process.

4. I don't own any Rapiers, so cannot comment, they seem alright though. I do want to give them a try, but don't really want to buy the Forgeworld Index for a single model. Give them a try and let us know how it goes.

1: No pods, they are useless. We are BA, we dont really need them, we have JP. I'm also not so sure about mephiston. He is 145 pts. The libby dread is only 27 pts. more and much harder to kill.

2: Dreads with autocannons, devastators with lascannons, rocket launchers, relic leviathan dread with storm array cannon, DC.

3: Depending on the points (we usually play 1 or 1,5k at our FLG) i use them "naked" with boltguns and chainswords, or with 1-3 inferno pistols, 1-2 powerfists, 1 hammer. If i have power weapons i also include a chaplain/lemartes to reroll failed hits, because of the -1 to hit. Without chaplain/lemartes i run them with chainswords, because of no rerolls.

4: I used to play with whirlwinds, but they didnt do much, so no more artillery for me.

5: Why ? We have company vets with JP and meltas, plasmaguns, etc.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Sadly, I heard and watched the stream to confirm. Mark made a big illegal move that had huge ramifications in round 5 of the swiss. He burned the 3d6 charge strat on captain hammer, which got him past a line of berserkers and onto a fire raptor, which he super-lucked out and blew up, crippling a ton of Jared's units that were all around the thing. Jared was ahead and looking like the favorite prior to that.

The issue is that captain hammer did not deep strike or wings of fire that turn, so he couldn't have used the 3d6 charge. So now the only pure BA list to make it to top 8 has an asterisk next to it, not to mention the incredible luck of dodging every eldar matchup all through the Swiss. (Which for anyone who didn't know, he lost to he first eldar he came across in top 8.)

The especially crappy part is that Jared directly asked him if he was allowed to use the stratagem anytime, and he said yes. This means that he likely illegally used the strata in some other games as well.

I'm sure misused stratagems were very prevalent throughout the tournament. I wonder how often it is intentional, especially among top tables.

I think the best way to gain details about an opponents' stratagem during a tournament game would be to ask them to read it verbatim or have them show the card if they one available.

Mchagen wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Sadly, I heard and watched the stream to confirm. Mark made a big illegal move that had huge ramifications in round 5 of the swiss. He burned the 3d6 charge strat on captain hammer, which got him past a line of berserkers and onto a fire raptor, which he super-lucked out and blew up, crippling a ton of Jared's units that were all around the thing. Jared was ahead and looking like the favorite prior to that.

The issue is that captain hammer did not deep strike or wings of fire that turn, so he couldn't have used the 3d6 charge. So now the only pure BA list to make it to top 8 has an asterisk next to it, not to mention the incredible luck of dodging every eldar matchup all through the Swiss. (Which for anyone who didn't know, he lost to he first eldar he came across in top 8.)

The especially crappy part is that Jared directly asked him if he was allowed to use the stratagem anytime, and he said yes. This means that he likely illegally used the strata in some other games as well.

I'm sure misused stratagems were very prevalent throughout the tournament. I wonder how often it is intentional, especially among top tables.

I think the best way to gain details about an opponents' stratagem during a tournament game would be to ask them to read it verbatim or have them show the card if they one available.

I have seen a time or two people that would make a false claim about their army rules hoping that the opponent would not insist on reading the rule out of the codex. Thankfully in my time of competitive events, that has been very rare.

Looking at the past few replies, I'm apparently doing something VERY wrong, as I have a DROP POD with Mephiston, a Company Ancient, and 8 Sternguard (2 with Grav Cannons and Grav Amps!!) in my newer lists.

It's as if I'm TRYING to give away my games.

Sarcasm aside, I've ran Mephiston and Sternguard in a Pod a few times with success...the only thing new is the Company Ancient and the Grav Cannons. Having Mephiston and good guns show up exactly where you want them to is worth points. Is 85 points too many? That's up to you and the rest of your list to decide...

I think the opinion of most is that yes, 85 pts is too many.

Bremon wrote:
I think the opinion of most is that yes, 85 pts is too many.

Obviously...I wish they were cheaper too. What should a drop pod cost, do you think?

Bremon wrote:
I think the opinion of most is that yes, 85 pts is too many.

It had a lower toughness, fewer wounds, and is immobile. Yet somehow it costs most than a Rhino. In an army loaded to the brim with units that can deep strike (you can run two Squads of 4x Gravgun + Combi-Grav Company Veterans for cheaper than the Sternguard Squad and Drop Pod). So yeah. Drop Pods don't necessarily suck, they just suck relative to other options.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Mchagen wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Sadly, I heard and watched the stream to confirm. Mark made a big illegal move that had huge ramifications in round 5 of the swiss. He burned the 3d6 charge strat on captain hammer, which got him past a line of berserkers and onto a fire raptor, which he super-lucked out and blew up, crippling a ton of Jared's units that were all around the thing. Jared was ahead and looking like the favorite prior to that.

The issue is that captain hammer did not deep strike or wings of fire that turn, so he couldn't have used the 3d6 charge. So now the only pure BA list to make it to top 8 has an asterisk next to it, not to mention the incredible luck of dodging every eldar matchup all through the Swiss. (Which for anyone who didn't know, he lost to he first eldar he came across in top 8.)

The especially crappy part is that Jared directly asked him if he was allowed to use the stratagem anytime, and he said yes. This means that he likely illegally used the strata in some other games as well.

I'm sure misused stratagems were very prevalent throughout the tournament. I wonder how often it is intentional, especially among top tables.

I think the best way to gain details about an opponents' stratagem during a tournament game would be to ask them to read it verbatim or have them show the card if they one available.

I have seen a time or two people that would make a false claim about their army rules hoping that the opponent would not insist on reading the rule out of the codex. Thankfully in my time of competitive events, that has been very rare.

Except intention is often difficult to prove.

I have been running test games of various BA/AM lists for an ITC tournament and especially when I started I was making a lot of errors. This was without trying to play quickly which with a high model count army is usually a requirement at a tournament.

Its very easy to make a mistake or think something works one way only to find it doesn't when its checked.

I know I lost a game last year due to an opponent incorrectly piling in in the direction he wanted not towards the nearest model - was this a mistake or intentional how would you prove.

That’s a great way to sum it up casvalremdeikun.

You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.

Martel732 wrote:
You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.

Exactly. How much would you add to the cost of a Rhino for the ability for its passengers to never be first struck stranded and also have the ability to be wherever you want / need them to be (enemy screens notwithstanding) on turns 1, 2, or 3?

The price isn't as crazy as it sounds...it's just SO much more than they used to be that we're all agast.