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Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods have one use: making non-jump units immune to alpha strike. I can't get grav cannons or lascannons on jump troops. Drop pods have a role, but I'd never use more than one.

Why grav ? Plasma is better.

 p5freak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods have one use: making non-jump units immune to alpha strike. I can't get grav cannons or lascannons on jump troops. Drop pods have a role, but I'd never use more than one.

Why grav ? Plasma is better.

Actually, Grav Cannons are a bit underestimated in 8th IMHO. The important thing to remember is that they are Heavy 4 which allows them to lay down the hurt even on tough targets. Against vehicles, they will on average cause more damage than Lascannons (Heavy 4, D3 damage as opposed to Heavy 1 with D6 damage). Against MEQs, they will on average cause more wounds than Plasma (Heavy 4 vs Heavy D3) and against hordes they will cause more casualties than Heavy Bolters (Heavy 4 S5 vs Heavy 3 S5).

They are the most effective weapon in the Devastator arsenal and even outstrip the classic weapons, even in their own specialised areas. The downsides is the cost and relative short range. Cost means it is worth investing in a few more bodies to act as ablative wounds and a Drop Pod to deploy them midfield where they will have good range to their targets. The upside is that the range of the Grav Cannons matches the bolters so your extra dudes will be able to contribute, not just catch bullets.

I would get an 8 man squad in a pod with either a Captain or a Lt for cheap rerolls and then put Mephiston in so he gets a quick ride into the action.

 Karhedron wrote:

Actually, Grav Cannons are a bit underestimated in 8th IMHO. The important thing to remember is that they are Heavy 4 which allows them to lay down the hurt even on tough targets. Against vehicles, they will on average cause more damage than Lascannons (Heavy 4, D3 damage as opposed to Heavy 1 with D6 damage). Against MEQs, they will on average cause more wounds than Plasma (Heavy 4 vs Heavy D3) and against hordes they will cause more casualties than Heavy Bolters (Heavy 4 S5 vs Heavy 3 S5).

They are the most effective weapon in the Devastator arsenal and even outstrip the classic weapons, even in their own specialised areas. The downsides is the cost and relative short range. Cost means it is worth investing in a few more bodies to act as ablative wounds and a Drop Pod to deploy them midfield where they will have good range to their targets. The upside is that the range of the Grav Cannons matches the bolters so your extra dudes will be able to contribute, not just catch bullets.

I would get an 8 man squad in a pod with either a Captain or a Lt for cheap rerolls and then put Mephiston in so he gets a quick ride into the action.

I dont think so. For about the same point cost (only 8 more) of a 5 model dev squad with 4 grav cannons and a drop pod i can get 5 company vets with JP, plasmaguns, combiplasma on the sarge, and a captain with JP and combiplasma. The first turn your dev squad arrives they only hit on 4s (one model hits on 3+ because of the signum) and wound T6+ on 5s, 16 shots, 8 hits, 3 wounds, 9 damage. My vets and captain hit on 3+ and 2+, rerolling 1s, and they wound T5+ on 3s, 12 shots, 10 hits, 7 wounds, 1 is saved, 12 damage.

Grav cannons don't need a babysitter and have twice the maximum effective range; ie max firepower out to 24". Everything in plasma range is getting hosed by ASM with plasma and VV with plasma pistols.

Ok,
I had a game yesterday and man I made some rookie errors. We had a 2k scorched earth and I got to choose the deployment map and got to go first. I managed to pull a forlon's fury over the enemy hellblasters gunline where the enemy warlord was. Then it all started going south. Some mental notes from the game.

- hellblasters with primaris ancient with the relic banner is something that you should not shoot at if your 12man DC blob is in rapid fire range of it.
- Screening your opponent from total denial of DS is great, but not if you move your precisely aligned DC blob from the front line to let your enemy come from the shadows inside your freshly opened gap before the game even starts..
- I'm having bad games with my mr. Slam.. he fails charges and is left in the open. Now with dual re-roll to charge (Lemmy, Wings) I still didn't make it. Next time -> DS in cover, make the charge next turn. Luckily he withstood a lot of fire from the enemy and managed to multi-charge two hellblaster scraps with 2 wounds remaining.
- My 12man DC blob was only 2man strong when they charged the gravis captain with 2 PF dudes on T1..
- Ones do happen! Karma reaches you and you reroll your ones as ones more times than in the last 10 games before..
- 2 scout squads isn't enough for screening a gunline, although I deployed on objectives to get points..
- MvP: Mephy, he soloed -> T1 5man intercessor squad -> T2 gravis captain, primaris lieutenant, primaris ancient -> T3 4man intercessor squad
- SG did some good work, killing the reivers and both librarians.

So my biggest errors were the self-opening of my screen and shooting the hellblasters with my DC near, I didn't even shoot with the bolters of the DC at the captain before I realized that those dying hellblasters really clear out my DC. I think my opponent didn't fail a single 3+ banner of sacrifice roll.

I spent all but 2 CP on T1. -1 2nd relic, -1 DC capt upgrade, -2 forlon's fury, -2 WODA on plasma devs. T2 SG used the 3d6 charge -2.


Here's a few photo's from the deployment before I started to ruin my own day, if interested. You probably need to click the pics to be able to read the texts..


RG deployment


Random pic from deployment


I get to go first and my enemy fails the seize! Whooo!! Looking a bloodfest for the sons of Sang....

After Forlon's fury




My opponent said that Mephy was a beast, but he didn't want to priorize to it anymore when it didn't give him any points. He thinks that me choosing the deployment zones gave me a too big head start in points. He was also thankful to me to waste my DC blob so well that he could even try to have a decent game. In the end he only had one intercessors squad left and my Mephy just one turn away from charging them. He was dissapointed in his inceptors that they didn't deliver enough pain. RG tactics -1 to hit from 18" was also to his benefit that my gunline couldn't finish enough off. Have to say that shooting lascannons at 2W models with bad rolls is terrible.. I think I made like four 1 damage lascannon shots at those pesky 2 wound models..

Well, lessons learned.

Note for future: you can only ever reroll a given die once.

So Lemmy and angels wings don't stack, does it also mean that I can't use a reroll strat to either of the rerolls? Well I failed them anyway, so no effect in the game.. Thanks.

You can roll the charge and then decide whether to reroll all dice with the relic pack or just one with the stratagem.

You'll definitely want to shoot hellblasters with preds or devs before closing in. The good news is that primaris marines have no other pressing targets!

I deployed the DC early to force the opponent to deploy againt them. I would have moved them backwards if I wouldn't have the first turn. How should I have used the forlon's fury instead? They were 18" from the hellblasters before forlon's fury.

Thanks for clearing the reroll thing, I think I've played actually like that before.. Dunno where all these brainfarts come. Maybe I should blame beer, whiskey or Canada.

I usually put my DC in orbit, so I don't have much experience with forlorn fury atm.

Martel732 wrote:
I usually put my DC in orbit, so I don't have much experience with forlorn fury atm.

Same here. They ALWAYS go in orbit, the 3d6 charge range (rerollable with Lemartes) is too good to pass up. While they rarely fail a charge like that, it is disappointing when it happens like it did in my last game.

I use them as suicide chaff clearers. Sometimes I can save them by locking up a small squad or character. But they are just there to clear the way for the real drop.

I had a failed 3D6 charge with DoA last game I played.

Rolled a 1, 2, and a 3, then rolled a 1, 1, and 4. It was not a good day.

Them's the breaks, though. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Hi Guys, not been on for a while but have had the codex for a while and managed to get some games in recently.

As many people probably have done, I have come up with my own version of "Slamgiunious" however I based mine on a San Priest with two hammers and ran him with DC in order to give them +1 strength.

Couple of questions, what warlord trait have you guys been giving, I have been dropping lemartes and 15 DC so went with Heroic Bearing in order to save the big group from morale.

also, does the stormshield (+3) give a massive advantage over the iron halo (+4)? Obvs the priest can't carry a shield, but I really like the +1 to strength when coupled to x2 strength my DC have taken out Lord of Skulls in one turn with that setup.

Sorry if what I have put is old news, just keen to get the best beatstick possible.

What do you guys prefer for your DC blob.. In this scenario there wouldn't be a SG blob or Lemartes..

a) Forlon's fury to get into face and probably certainly in range for the charge.

or

b) 3d6 charge? It's 1 more CP, but if you can afford it? Does it negate the fact that you could force your opponent to deploy against the aggressively deployed early DC?

 gkos wrote:

As many people probably have done, I have come up with my own version of "Slamgiunious" however I based mine on a San Priest with two hammers and ran him with DC in order to give them +1 strength.

Couple of questions, what warlord trait have you guys been giving, I have been dropping lemartes and 15 DC so went with Heroic Bearing in order to save the big group from morale.

also, does the stormshield (+3) give a massive advantage over the iron halo (+4)? Obvs the priest can't carry a shield, but I really like the +1 to strength when coupled to x2 strength my DC have taken out Lord of Skulls in one turn with that setup.

Sorry if what I have put is old news, just keen to get the best beatstick possible.

A sang priest ? Why ? You only hit on 4+ with the hammer, you have no reroll 1s aura. You have only 3 attacks and only 4 wounds. Sure its nice to have S10, but a captn with S8 and red thirst will already wound everything that isnt T8 on 2+. Why two hammers ? The second is wasted points. It does nothing. You cant go wrong with any warlord trait, only exception is selfless valour, i think its the weakest of all. The advantage of a SS is a 16,7% higher chance of making the invuln sv. Is that worth 15 pts. ? You have to decide that.

The best beatstick is a captn with a hammer. I like my captn with angels wings and a SS.

Xirax wrote:
What do you guys prefer for your DC blob.. In this scenario there wouldn't be a SG blob or Lemartes..

a) Forlon's fury to get into face and probably certainly in range for the charge.

or

b) 3d6 charge? It's 1 more CP, but if you can afford it? Does it negate the fact that you could force your opponent to deploy against the aggressively deployed early DC?

I dont feel comfortable deploying DC on the table, they are always in orbit. What if i dont go first ? What if my initiative gets seized ?

Yeah, I'm not a fan of forlorn fury in practice. It's a pretty big gamble honestly.

So am I the only one using the Forlon's fury as a distraction/forcing the opponent to deploy againt it to leave possible gaps somewhere else. For example in the game above the hellblasters were deployed to counter the DC.. You can always withdraw in safety with the blob with Forlon instead of moving towards.. But if I'm the only one.. Maybe I should just do the DoA.. Although I've saved that for the SG. In games with only one jump threat it seems that DoA is a no brainer vs. Forlorn? Hmm. Thanks.

Xirax wrote:
So am I the only one using the Forlon's fury as a distraction/forcing the opponent to deploy againt it to leave possible gaps somewhere else. For example in the game above the hellblasters were deployed to counter the DC.

Is it worth the risk losing the DC ?

Xirax wrote:

You can always withdraw in safety with the blob with Forlon instead of moving towards.

What if your opponent places artillery on the table, after you deployed your DC ? You cant forlorn fury to safety against not needing LOS artillery.

Xirax wrote:
So am I the only one using the Forlon's fury as a distraction/forcing the opponent to deploy againt it to leave possible gaps somewhere else. For example in the game above the hellblasters were deployed to counter the DC.. You can always withdraw in safety with the blob with Forlon instead of moving towards.. But if I'm the only one.. Maybe I should just do the DoA.. Although I've saved that for the SG. In games with only one jump threat it seems that DoA is a no brainer vs. Forlorn? Hmm. Thanks.

I have been toying with idea of Forlorn Fury. If you can use it to get a charge off with the DC on the same turn that the SG DoA then you stand a good chance of crushing a big part of your opponent's line. Even using the DC as a distraction Carnifex is not without merit although you will want to be careful how many points you spend on them in this scenario.

As others have pointed out, using the DC in this way is not without risk. Artillery etc will stand a good chance of taking a chunk out of them, no matter where they move. On the other hand, if you regard your DC as a suicide squad then the question simply becomes how long they survive and how much they can take down before they die.

Well if my opponent has lots of non-LOS artrilley in his list, thats totally a different case. Putting the sky high is the only reasonable thing to do.

And manoeuver like that needs thick terrain if you don't go first. To me it was a better option between dropping with Lemmy and try the charge on the same turn or drop in cover and charge on the second turn. DoA has been a SG thing in my lists because I've been running my vanguard as DC, SG, SG ancient and want to give some boost for both of the CC jumpers to launch them on the same turn.. So noone uses Forlon's fury in comp play?

I think the upside is definitely worth the gamble in most games. If you get the first turn you are almost guaranteed a first turn charge with the DC and you get to DoA something else at the same time, many tournament lists get blown out by this combo. If you don't get the first turn you can often move them out of LOS, the typical opponent in this meta does not have nearly enough indirect fire to punish you in that situation. With some planning you can also zone out the opponent's deepstrike threats with your scouts and other units. Then you can either move into charge range on your turn or use Upon Wings of Fire to get them into 50/50 charge range with Lemartes nearby. Its painful but hardly a guaranteed loss.

Xirax wrote:
Well if my opponent has lots of non-LOS artrilley in his list, thats totally a different case. Putting the sky high is the only reasonable thing to do.

And manoeuver like that needs thick terrain if you don't go first. To me it was a better option between dropping with Lemmy and try the charge on the same turn or drop in cover and charge on the second turn. DoA has been a SG thing in my lists because I've been running my vanguard as DC, SG, SG ancient and want to give some boost for both of the CC jumpers to launch them on the same turn.. So noone uses Forlon's fury in comp play?

Tournament players often use Forlorn Fury with a DC bomb.

So, I started my adventure in BA by adding them as allies to my Custodes. Find myself really enjoying them.

Rocking shotgun scouts, scout bikes, mephiston and a Slamguinius. Anyone have any other "tech" units or favorites to run?

Been reading through the thread and it seems like there isn't a direct consensus on most things.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
So, I started my adventure in BA by adding them as allies to my Custodes. Find myself really enjoying them.

Rocking shotgun scouts, scout bikes, mephiston and a Slamguinius. Anyone have any other "tech" units or favorites to run?

Been reading through the thread and it seems like there isn't a direct consensus on most things.

Death Company are pretty stellar. They clear chaff in melee with amazing efficiency. The real conundrum is if you want to run two medium to small units of them (5 to 8 models strong) or run a larger squad of 10+ models. I find that they die every game, so I try not to sink too many points into mine, keep the squad between 6 and 8 models, and usually run Lemartes with them because he is such a force multiplier for the squad. He himself is a very powerful unit unto himself, getting 6 attacks on the charge at +2 strength, -2 AP, and D3 damage per successful wound, and he provides some invaluable buffs to the Death Company around him. Re-rolling all failed to hit like any other chaplain, on top of rerolling failed charge rolls. I rarely build a list without him any more as a general rule.

Sanguinary Guard are one of our other unique weapons, and one I highly recommend checking out. They're great for taking out larger multi-wound targets.

There are other fun things in the codex, but those are some of the stand-outs you didn't already mention.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Lemartes is a must if you play with DC. Problem with small DC units is if he doesnt make the charge. If you daisy chain back to him you have less models in CC, and he may be a target for your opponent. If you dont daisy chain you get more models to attack, but he stands alone, vulnerable to attacks, not buffing anyone.

Lemartes is not a must if you are going forlorn fury or using 15 men in general. Or using them for punch-back. Then your guy is Astorath, imo.

After more gaming I've come to a conclusion that Forlon's fury works well with just the Slamguinius. Save the DoA for SG/DC blob and the if you really want a chance to get a third charge in, do it with Lemmy and a DC blob. Possibility is quite thin, but you have chance getting total of 4 units into combat.

- Slamguinius with the Forlon's fury and angel's wing jump pack.
- SG with the DoA.
- DC with Lemartes. (although this I strongly would just DS in cover and wait for the 2nd turn charge)
- Mephiston with wings of sanguinius (I'd hold Mephy in a transport in a case that the opponent gets the first turn)

You really don't need to do all this on turn 1, but you still got some cards in your sleeves to help you get in. At least in a semi-competitive environment these all have worked more times than not.

Dunno if all these could work sometimes also in your meta as well?

Thoughts?

What does Slamguinius do against a well-screened army? The whole point of DC/inceptors is to clear the screens out.

Martel732 wrote:
What does Slamguinius do against a well-screened army? The whole point of DC/inceptors is to clear the screens out.

Nothing..

Last game I moved towards with Forlon's fury into cover T1 with Slam..

..but not every army has a 100% screens against charges. Move up, move again and then charge gives you 12+d6+12 movement before the charge. At least I've managed to fly over with screens a few times with use of Forlon's fury. Not every deployment map has 24" noman's land.

..but I know what you mean.

I'm always planning for worst-case, because it doesn't take much going wrong to screw over BA in general.