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Voss wrote:
So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?

Do they just not get to pick stuff?

Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.

Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Voss wrote:
So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?

Do they just not get to pick stuff?

Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.

Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.

No, that's an example. *If* your SoD army is raiders from ghur, you can pick stuff from there. If its one of archaeon's armies from allpoints, it isn't addressed, same with stormcast or lizards teleporting in from their homes.

Archaon's armies from the Allpoints get raised somewhere else first. Same with the Stormcast and Azyr.

Seraphon are probably going to get their own Realm Rules or something like that.

It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.

EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Archaon's armies from the Allpoints get raised somewhere else first. Same with the Stormcast and Azyr.

Seraphon are probably going to get their own Realm Rules or something like that.

Seraphon don't disappear after the battle is over. The soldiers that the Slann dream up have to live somewhere.

 Nova_Impero wrote:
It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.

EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.

Seven are the 8 Mortal Realms, minus Azyr. Like from the original 4 pages rules (you can't choose Azyr).

The Realm of Chaos is another dimension, so not a Realm per se (Realm as in "Realmsphere").

It's 6 weapons + 6 artefacts x 7 Realms = 84.

 Nova_Impero wrote:
It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.

EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.

Yeah: Aqshy, Ghyran, Chamon, Ulgu and Hysh, Shyish and Ghur. Azyr has alwasy been barred from the fight.


My guess is that the reasoning here will be that: "sure, your army comes from Azyr/the Varanspire but they've gone native from fighting for quite a while here"

 Nova_Impero wrote:
It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.

EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.

It is, but they're very clear about 12x7=84 artifacts. So Azyr won't get artifacts, despite the fact that stormcast armies come directly from there. Or perfectly legal pure daemon armies (despite a combined book, you can still field a daemon only army)

Multiple armies can be from somewhere else, its an inherent part of their background. Since this is supposedly about theming armies as much as anything, it leaves those multiple 'somewhere else' options rather out in the cold.

And some combinations seem inherently a little odd. Fireslayers from the life or death realms, for example.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Voss wrote:
So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?

Do they just not get to pick stuff?

Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.

Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.

Also from the text above Beastcaller's Bones:

Perhaps, on the other hand, your favourite Aspiring Deathbringer is a monster hunter of renown, with the ability to paralyze beasts with fear. In this case, you could use the Beastcaller’s Bones.

Which means the Aspiring Deathbringer would have to be from the appropriate Realm.

HorticulusDK wrote:

 Nova_Impero wrote:
It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.

EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.

Seven are the 8 Mortal Realms, minus Azyr. Like from the original 4 pages rules (you can't choose Azyr).

The Realm of Chaos is another dimension, so not a Realm per se (Realm as in "Realmsphere").

It's 6 weapons + 6 artefacts x 7 Realms = 84.

My mistake then.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Nova_Impero wrote:
It does mention seven mortal realms, so I would assume Azyr will get some artifacts.

EDIT: This is just a preview and not the whole thing.

Yeah: Aqshy, Ghyran, Chamon, Ulgu and Hysh, Shyish and Ghur. Azyr has alwasy been barred from the fight.


My guess is that the reasoning here will be that: "sure, your army comes from Azyr/the Varanspire but they've gone native from fighting for quite a while here"

Varanspire is in the realm of chaos. The All Points is just an island that connects the realms. I would assume that anything Varanspire is just automatically falls into the chaos ream rules.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Voss wrote:
So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?

Do they just not get to pick stuff?

Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.

Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.

Also from the text above Beastcaller's Bones:

Perhaps, on the other hand, your favourite Aspiring Deathbringer is a monster hunter of renown, with the ability to paralyze beasts with fear. In this case, you could use the Beastcaller’s Bones.

Which means the Aspiring Deathbringer would have to be from the appropriate Realm.

I think you and Kan are both misunderstanding. We know that Chaos armies (especially mortals) don't have to come from the realm of Chaos. What if that's where we want them to be from, though? It would be nice to have some rules for themed armies from places like the Allpoints, Realm of Chaos, etc. that aren't on one of the Mortal Realms.

No. No misunderstanding on my part as I was agreeing that a Chaos force can come from one of the seven Mortal Realms if the player so chooses as the article tells us. Neither the article nor myself have said anything about what happens if you decide to have your army come from somewhere other than the seven Mortal Realms (e.g., the Allpoints, etc.).

AverageBoss wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.

You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.


Points.


Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….


How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.


Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.

Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?

Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.

Thank you for that. That does seem fair. Might be very hard to pull off agaisnt a very knowladgble good player.

Davor wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.

You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.


Points.


Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….


How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.


Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.

Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?

Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.

Thank you for that. That does seem fair. Might be very hard to pull off agaisnt a very knowladgble good player.

Unless the opponent is getting free summons of their own it isn't fair at all. Someone else mentioned it before; the tactical effort to block grave sites being used that way still provides a huge advantage to the death player.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Davor wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.

You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.


Points.


Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….


How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.


Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.

Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?

Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.

Thank you for that. That does seem fair. Might be very hard to pull off agaisnt a very knowladgble good player.

Unless the opponent is getting free summons of their own it isn't fair at all. Someone else mentioned it before; the tactical effort to block grave sites being used that way still provides a huge advantage to the death player.

Only need to block one - the one where the general is.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Voss wrote:
So...with the focus on the '7' mortal realms, how does this work with sigmarine armies from Azyr (I assume that's the realm not counted), Archaeon's armies from the varanspire thing, daemon armies from the realm of chaos or lizard armies from their crystal ball thing?

Do they just not get to pick stuff?

Well, there's no straight "daemon armies" as a book anymore. They all share books with the Mortal side of things.

Also it answers this in the article. Slaves to Darkness is the example given, "raiding the Realm of Ghur" and getting to pick stuff from there.

Also from the text above Beastcaller's Bones:

Perhaps, on the other hand, your favourite Aspiring Deathbringer is a monster hunter of renown, with the ability to paralyze beasts with fear. In this case, you could use the Beastcaller’s Bones.

Which means the Aspiring Deathbringer would have to be from the appropriate Realm.

I think you and Kan are both misunderstanding. We know that Chaos armies (especially mortals) don't have to come from the realm of Chaos. What if that's where we want them to be from, though? It would be nice to have some rules for themed armies from places like the Allpoints, Realm of Chaos, etc. that aren't on one of the Mortal Realms.

Agreed.

But after thinking about it, I might work it this way:

My (large) Tzeentch army is commanded by a Gaunt Summoner who is working to not just free the himself and the others from Archaon, but to actively depose and replace him. As such, he operates mostly from his Silver Tower. However, since he has a wide netowrk of forces to draw upon, I could just say that any given force happens to be from whichever realm I'd like on any given day, as he operates across all seven realms as it suits his web of plans. I'm sure a Gaunt Summoner would have access to cults across each of the realms, yes?

That said, that idea doesn't necessarily work for all factions (the aforementioned Fyreslayers, for example), but it's an idea.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Agreed.

But after thinking about it, I might work it this way:

My (large) Tzeentch army is commanded by a Gaunt Summoner who is working to not just free the himself and the others from Archaon, but to actively depose and replace him. As such, he operates mostly from his Silver Tower. However, since he has a wide netowrk of forces to draw upon, I could just say that any given force happens to be from whichever realm I'd like on any given day, as he operates across all seven realms as it suits his web of plans. I'm sure a Gaunt Summoner would have access to cults across each of the realms, yes?

That said, that idea doesn't necessarily work for all factions (the aforementioned Fyreslayers, for example), but it's an idea.

Fyreslayers have lodges in quite a few of the Realms. We know of at least one in Ulgu and one in Shyish, and that's actually in their army book proper.

I think 'active in' is a better term than from. A khorne army that has invaded Ulgu, to bring a slaaneshi demon Prince to heel, could use artifacts discovered in that Realm, especially if they are there long enough.
The stormcast are all from Azyr but most of them spend their time stationed in one of the realms. I think these artifacts are designed to give players more choice and to let them theme their armies if they wish.
In one of the audio dramas there is a Stormcast chamber from the Realm of beasts, that have taken to wearing face tattoos and covering their armour with bones and feathers.
The artifacts give just a touch of rules flavour to make themed armies more than just a paint scheme.

I view the original Order artifacts and traits as being the “Azyr” artifacts.

Aren73 wrote:
So...a spell costs points but summonable units don't?

A box of 'Living Spells' is a one time £15 purchase.

Summonable units you can spam aren't.

You get the idea.

 Arbitrator wrote:
A box of 'Living Spells' is a one time £15 purchase.

With the size of the model for the Purple Sun of Shyish I was really expecting a higher price than ~$30 US.

It still might be that in USD...

Chikout wrote:
I think 'active in' is a better term than from. A khorne army that has invaded Ulgu, to bring a slaaneshi demon Prince to heel, could use artifacts discovered in that Realm, especially if they are there long enough.
The stormcast are all from Azyr but most of them spend their time stationed in one of the realms. I think these artifacts are designed to give players more choice and to let them theme their armies if they wish.
In one of the audio dramas there is a Stormcast chamber from the Realm of beasts, that have taken to wearing face tattoos and covering their armour with bones and feathers.
The artifacts give just a touch of rules flavour to make themed armies more than just a paint scheme.

That's a good way of looking at it. Hopefully, if the systems works out well, we'll end up with a supplement that adds artifacts, spells, etc. themed to those non-realm locations.

Anyway, isn't june's white dwarf supposed to come out the 2nd of this month or they are delaying it until next week?

EDIT: nevermind me, just double checked and saw june 8th.

Lemondish wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Davor wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

Aren73 wrote:I said summoning doesn't cost points, because summoning doesn't cost points.

You know, to point out the fact that points are not what summoning costs and that everything we know so far points to a lack of points for the summoning mechanic.


Points.


Also, Legions of Nagash do not need a resource to summon (aside from one command point that you use to use the general's ability, but that doesn't really count)….


How about we call the resources used to summon units something other than points, otherwise it will get confusing, tokens would be better.


Anyway, everything about my post was factually correct, summons don't cost points, so it would be very funny indeed if you had to pay points for every time you summon a spell.

Thanks for that. I didn't know about the Legions of Nagash. I missed that. So I have erred. I am a big boy to admit it. That is why I asked, I indeed missed something. I wonder will this change or has it been mentioned that Legions of Nagash doesn't have a resource summons cost?

Legions can only summon destroyed units with the summoanble keyword, not new units. Said units can only be brought in through 1 of the 4 gravesites placed at the start of the game. Only the general can bring them back, not other heroes. This is done through a command ability costing a command point. The general must be within 9" of the grave marker he wishes to target. The summoned unit must be placed fully within 9" of said marker, and further than 9" from enemy units. Plenty of restriction there imo.

Thank you for that. That does seem fair. Might be very hard to pull off agaisnt a very knowladgble good player.

Unless the opponent is getting free summons of their own it isn't fair at all. Someone else mentioned it before; the tactical effort to block grave sites being used that way still provides a huge advantage to the death player.

Only need to block one - the one where the general is.

Oh, so the one deepest into enemy territory, blocked off by the bulk of your opponents army, guarded by their most powerful model.

Please no, don't hurl your units into guaranteed death to fail at stopping me from summoning. Whatever shall I do with such a massively advantageous position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:

Chikout wrote:
I think 'active in' is a better term than from. A khorne army that has invaded Ulgu, to bring a slaaneshi demon Prince to heel, could use artifacts discovered in that Realm, especially if they are there long enough.
The stormcast are all from Azyr but most of them spend their time stationed in one of the realms. I think these artifacts are designed to give players more choice and to let them theme their armies if they wish.
In one of the audio dramas there is a Stormcast chamber from the Realm of beasts, that have taken to wearing face tattoos and covering their armour with bones and feathers.
The artifacts give just a touch of rules flavour to make themed armies more than just a paint scheme.

That's a good way of looking at it. Hopefully, if the systems works out well, we'll end up with a supplement that adds artifacts, spells, etc. themed to those non-realm locations.

I'm more interested in ending up with a supplement that doesn't add a huge amount of unnecessary tedium at the cost of making army balance far worse. We've already failed the tedium part and the army balance isn't looking so good.

I mean....do I throw my zombie dragon vampire lord at you to munch your units or do I not do that so that a skeleton unit can come back really far away from you?

And yeah, you can make a rando necromancer your general, though that's not how I roll. But yes, possible - then again it's easier to kill/snipe a necromancer than a vampire lord on zombie dragon.

Also, if you can leave his units with 1 or 2 dudes left he can't summon them. It will be a game of "How badly can I hurt that unit without wiping it out?"

The legions of nagash summoning ability has enough restrictions that a competent player can completely shut it down. I'd worry a lot more about the tzeentch/sylvaneth/flesh eater ones

Aren73 wrote:
I mean....do I throw my zombie dragon vampire lord at you to munch your units or do I not do that so that a skeleton unit can come back really far away from you?

And yeah, you can make a rando necromancer your general, though that's not how I roll. But yes, possible - then again it's easier to kill/snipe a necromancer than a vampire lord on zombie dragon.

Also, if you can leave his units with 1 or 2 dudes left he can't summon them. It will be a game of "How badly can I hurt that unit without wiping it out?"

The legions of nagash summoning ability has enough restrictions that a competent player can completely shut it down. I'd worry a lot more about the tzeentch/sylvaneth/flesh eater ones

I think with "Generals" being far less important thanks to Command Points, you'll see plenty of random Necromancers, etc... as Generals who will happily hang back to send another wave mid-game.

Aren73 wrote:
Also, if you can leave his units with 1 or 2 dudes left he can't summon them. It will be a game of "How badly can I hurt that unit without wiping it out?"

Well...given how summonables work..if you leave 2-3 skeletons alive..next turn you'll have 12-13 skeletons running around.

@NewTruthNeomaxim - that's a fair point, you can, then again that means the second wave is still reasonably far back and a single Necromancer shouldn't be that difficult to kill, even with the new shooting rules and once he's dead that's it, no more summoning.

@rayphoton - completely true I'm being silly, of course there is that rule. So now LoN like it when you leave their units with a few guys left AND when you kill them outright...It is a decent boost to the army

Aren73 wrote:
@NewTruthNeomaxim - that's a fair point, you can, then again that means the second wave is still reasonably far back and a single Necromancer shouldn't be that difficult to kill, even with the new shooting rules and once he's dead that's it, no more summoning.

@rayphoton - completely true I'm being silly, of course there is that rule. So now LoN like it when you leave their units with a few guys left AND when you kill them outright...It is a decent boost to the army

I feel like people always forget the part where a killed General is immediately replaced with another hero being named General. You're right about the Necro being squishy, but technically they have to remove ALL your heroes before they're 100% safe from you summoning.