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That was 30k, where every army is functionally identical. And you're completely misunderstanding the nature of Ahriman's quest if A) you think he will ever succeed and B) that just recruiting new people would ever be an acceptable replacement for the friends he lost.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
This is a new edition. Very few models come with buckets of attacks as their base. There are no vets/chosen, because PG and Rubrics are already "elite" - when you've been alive for 10,000 years pretty much everyone is a veteran...hence VotLW.
Why they don't have veteran stats then?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 18:29:21
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
Oh look...Tzaangors! And they're even on the same planet!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/11 18:37:30
That was 30k, where every army is functionally identical. And you're completely misunderstanding the nature of Ahriman's quest if A) you think he will ever succeed and B) that just recruiting new people would ever be an acceptable replacement for the friends he lost.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
This is a new edition. Very few models come with buckets of attacks as their base. There are no vets/chosen, because PG and Rubrics are already "elite" - when you've been alive for 10,000 years pretty much everyone is a veteran...hence VotLW.
Why they don't have veteran stats then?
This makes me wonder if the rubric is also a curse on the gene seed, one assumes the TS must have tried to recruit non psykers, but what was the result? massive mutation? the new marine turns to dust like its previous kin? this is something I hope they cover in the new dex.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
Oh look...Tzaangors! And they're even on the same planet!
They were ALREADY expensive in points, and Plague Marines still are after Chapter Approved. That argument doesn't hold an inch of water.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The had regular marines before. And apparently Ahriman has tried to undo the rubric, so he regrets it. But if he wanted non-dust, non-sorcerer TS, I can see no logical reason why he could not just recruit new ones. It gotta be way easier than undoing the rubric.
Read the trilogy on this rough topic a while back. But suffice to say rampant mutation is a good reason why the geneseed isn't' very useful outside psykers. Undoing the Rubric is more about not screwing it up and turning people to dust more than regretting trying to stop the mutation. And dude is pretty much Tzeentch's buttmonkey who's had just enough hope dangled in front of him to be willing to break order to attempt to achieve his personal quest.
That said, nothing at all stops a thousand son from commanding a wider warband, but it's not a legion unit unless it consists of the legion, 90% or more of which's geneseed went poof with the ritual. You've got two possible implantations per living ts sorcerer. That's not a good build rate.
They've got a far better shot at turning renegade librarians than building their own.
I assume all new Thousand Sons marines that aren't psykers will mutate like crazy, but even worse now that they are all the time around Tzeentch and chaos magic.
And lets remember that Chaos marines have a harder time than Loyalist replenishing their numbers. Thats why guys like Fabius Bile are so popular with Chaos Lords.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Crimson wrote: So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?
What's the point of having an army defined and differentiated by it's use of psykers if you're just going to give them the same organization as any other legion anyways?
The had regular marines before. And apparently Ahriman has tried to undo the rubric, so he regrets it. But if he wanted non-dust, non-sorcerer TS, I can see no logical reason why he could not just recruit new ones. It gotta be way easier than undoing the rubric.
Yes he's trying to undo the Rubric so he can redo it properly.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
Oh look...Tzaangors! And they're even on the same planet!
Which is fine, just not as most of the entire army.
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything? Its certainly not rubric marines or sorc's. So by this fact we can see that there must be non sorc/rubric Tsons in some capacity. The problem is whenever Tson fluff is presented it doubles down on the rubric/sorc porn. So people get caught into that mindset. Now, another issue is how rubrics are replaced or repaired? I find it hard to imagine a recruited marine would don a suit of rubric armor and let himself be blasted to dust only to haunt said armor in a mind fethed haze. So for my headcanon I prefer to say that they have now a approximation of the rubric spell that summons some form of servant to inhabit the armor. Perhaps Rubrics have something akin to soul stones that capture the spirit if the armor is destroyed and teleported to safe keeping (ala necrons). There are so many ways to answer these questions with no existing fluff covering them, so go wild with the headcanon.
Also, I find it pointless to worry about the BETA smite nerf. The codex was clearly made with the current rules and the best we can hope for is a quick update in some form and not have to wait for the next CA. We dont even know if the BETA rule is going to pass inspection. My bet is it wont as it creates just as many problems as it solves.
The only thing I am worried about is the state of affairs with scarab occult terminators. They are a redundant unit trying to fill the same role as rubrics while having a power sword as the hook. The swords have always been on limited use seeing as SOT do not want to be in close combat. The thing that gave them dubious worth to counteract the redundant factors was you got a lvl 2 sorc in the bargain. The index nuked that. I am not confident it will be fixed. And SOTs will inherit the title of worst terminator in the game.
Look, I can play a Thousand Sons army that relies on very little Thousand Sons legion units. But the ones you get to take have to be really strong. They have to show why they've survived so long on their own. They need to have some real power to show they can hold their own with so few models and mostly daemon units.
They were ALREADY expensive in points, and Plague Marines still are after Chapter Approved. That argument doesn't hold an inch of water.
That misses the point - and they should be I'd rather have T5 and 5+++ or 5++, +1 save, and relentless over an extra attack any day.
YOU are missing the point. The extra attack is something Berserker, Noise, and Plague Marines had in some form, whether it be base or from having an extra weapon. Plague Marines are the only ones that lost this and that's ridiculous.
I'd argue Rubric Marines need the extra attack too out of principle but that's a different topic.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Oh, and people keep asking for Rubric Dreadnoughts. How would they ruleswise differ from regular Hellbrutes or Hellforged Dreadnoughts?
How would they differ? Psyker Dread? Not hard. Grant them Warp Flame style weapons. Imagine a Dread with dual Warp Flamers and Fists casting Warptime on itself to close the gap. That gak would be terrifying!
AlmightyWalrus wrote: This line of reasoning broke 7th edition in Fantasy. The books should be as equal as possible, even a theoretical "Codex: Squirrels with Crustacean allies" should have a fair chance to beat "Codex: God".
- Cost? FW models cost more? Because Thudd guns are more expensive than Wraithknights and Riptides. Nope, not a good argument. This is an expensive game. We play it knowing that, and also knowing that, realistically, it's cheaper than hookers and blow.
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything?
bound demons in the case of the first two, and slaves in the case of the latter.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything?
bound demons in the case of the first two, and slaves in the case of the latter.
Well seeing as there is no fluff answer (offical) it would have to come down to personal headcanon. But your suggestion of bound demons is very cool in theory but it is not reflected in the TT stats of said units. Id have to disagree with the slaves fixing any piece of tech as its far to complicated. Id say its more likely that the Tsons has a few dark mechanicum on call.
I hope the new codex solves these lore issues in some fashion but im doubtful. But Tsons are not alone in the crazy non working lore department.
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything?
bound demons in the case of the first two, and slaves in the case of the latter.
Well seeing as there is no fluff answer (offical) it would have to come down to personal headcanon. But your suggestion of bound demons is very cool in theory but it is not reflected in the TT stats of said units. Id have to disagree with the slaves fixing any piece of tech as its far to complicated. Id say its more likely that the Tsons has a few dark mechanicum on call.
I hope the new codex solves these lore issues in some fashion but im doubtful. But Tsons are not alone in the crazy non working lore department.
This is why I suggested how easy it would be to make a new character, a soul smith, like a techmarine/apothecary kind of character, in fact screw GW, when this new dex drops and is a sack of boring nonsense I will just make my own with a bit of community help.
They were ALREADY expensive in points, and Plague Marines still are after Chapter Approved. That argument doesn't hold an inch of water.
That misses the point - and they should be I'd rather have T5 and 5+++ or 5++, +1 save, and relentless over an extra attack any day.
YOU are missing the point. The extra attack is something Berserker, Noise, and Plague Marines had in some form, whether it be base or from having an extra weapon. Plague Marines are the only ones that lost this and that's ridiculous.
I'd argue Rubric Marines need the extra attack too out of principle but that's a different topic.
Oi vey.
DG in 7th were base 1. VV were base 2. Exactly what they are now.
So, yea, DG "lost" an attack from the 2 ccw rule, but now have a ton more options and can STILL get to 2 attacks if they want to. Why a 22 point axe/knife DG kills 0.64 VV and a 16 point VV kills 0.22 DG. Hell even a 17 point double knife DG kills 0.26 VV.
So, yea if you want your DG to cost way more with 2 attacks base then good for you.
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything?
bound demons in the case of the first two, and slaves in the case of the latter.
Well seeing as there is no fluff answer (offical) it would have to come down to personal headcanon. But your suggestion of bound demons is very cool in theory but it is not reflected in the TT stats of said units. Id have to disagree with the slaves fixing any piece of tech as its far to complicated. Id say its more likely that the Tsons has a few dark mechanicum on call.
I hope the new codex solves these lore issues in some fashion but im doubtful. But Tsons are not alone in the crazy non working lore department.
This is why I suggested how easy it would be to make a new character, a soul smith, like a techmarine/apothecary kind of character, in fact screw GW, when this new dex drops and is a sack of boring nonsense I will just make my own with a bit of community help.
I'd be all for more psyker characters that are weaker than the Exalted but have other stuff they can do, like a psyker warpsmith that buffs daemon engines. I think that's a more "on-fluff" approach to expanding the marine side of the Thousand Sons than just trying to make a Rubric version of every Marine unit.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'd be all for more psyker characters that are weaker than the Exalted but have other stuff they can do, like a psyker warpsmith that buffs daemon engines. I think that's a more "on-fluff" approach to expanding the marine side of the Thousand Sons than just trying to make a Rubric version of every Marine unit.
speaking as someone whose played Grey Knights, the problem with that approuch is you get a lot of useless crap because you end up paying for psykers on gak you don't need to be.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Arachnofiend wrote: I'd be all for more psyker characters that are weaker than the Exalted but have other stuff they can do, like a psyker warpsmith that buffs daemon engines. I think that's a more "on-fluff" approach to expanding the marine side of the Thousand Sons than just trying to make a Rubric version of every Marine unit.
speaking as someone whose played Grey Knights, the problem with that approuch is you get a lot of useless crap because you end up paying for psykers on gak you don't need to be.
I think this is largely a problem with Grey Knights (and Tzeentch Daemons, and potentially Thousand Sons too) just not having enough psychic powers to cast. Craftworld Eldar don't care about the smite nerf because they have 18 fething spells to go through before they want to cast Smite. If Grey Knights had 12 spells, both their own unique list and the Space Marine list, having all those extra psykers would be a bit more handy, I think.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'd be all for more psyker characters that are weaker than the Exalted but have other stuff they can do, like a psyker warpsmith that buffs daemon engines. I think that's a more "on-fluff" approach to expanding the marine side of the Thousand Sons than just trying to make a Rubric version of every Marine unit.
speaking as someone whose played Grey Knights, the problem with that approuch is you get a lot of useless crap because you end up paying for psykers on gak you don't need to be.
I think this is largely a problem with Grey Knights (and Tzeentch Daemons, and potentially Thousand Sons too) just not having enough psychic powers to cast. Craftworld Eldar don't care about the smite nerf because they have 18 fething spells to go through before they want to cast Smite. If Grey Knights had 12 spells, both their own unique list and the Space Marine list, having all those extra psykers would be a bit more handy, I think.
On that I agree, psyker heavy lists need more spells. that said, even before 8th edition, how many GKs took tech marines (save for when they wanted a dirt cheap HQ choice)? specialist HQs for the 1k sons aren't a bad idea but at the same time I think also having some elite servants providing similer things could be a good idea too, and avoid having to pay for marine stats + psyker just so you have have a re-roll bubble.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.
So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
The answer is pretty simple and obvious, 10,000 years has passed! Thousand sons are not the same organization it is in 30k, it has changed in structure, ethos and members. Why should they still mirror the legions 10k years in the past?
Now would I be against new rubric units? No, as long as they add something to the list and are not just because they are in the 30k list.
This is a pet peeve of mine, ever since the HH series exploded in popularity 30k has stopped being background to flesh out the 40kCSM and instead taking center-stage. It's even gotten to the level where we probably have more fluff for them in 30k then in 40k, which defeats the whole purpose of the HH for me. It was the 40kTS that made me love them, not 30k, and trying to make 40kTS to look more like 30k TS is all backwards.
30k =/= 40k
That's the thing, they ARE the same organisation, they are the same people more or less, the rubrics are not affected by mutation so all that equipment they had would still be there and even if it wasn't, why wouldn't a sorcerer instruct his heavy weapon rubrics to form a havoc squad, it doesn't make sense, hence the disconnect.
I am using the 30k list as a prime example of the gear they have, and had, then applying simple logic that after the burning of prospero, planet of the sorcerers (crimson king), then there are still a hell of a lot of normal marines in the old legion roles, assault marine etc.
Then apply the rubric, these same non psyker marines suddenly drop whatever equipment they have and pick up a bolter, it doesn't make sense.
They are not, in 30k they are a breakaway faction of the imperium and in 40k they are a collection of sorcerer-kings residing on a deamon world. Their supplies, training, organisation is totally different now, they have no access to imperial forge-worlds, they dont have a recruitment process, the internal hierarchy is totally different, the list goes on.
Now I agree that a rubric unit with heavy weapons could be cool, but they wouldn't have the same gear they did back in 30k(just like they dont have standard bolters/flamers/assault cannons now). They should have freaky warp-based weapons that reflects the force they are now. And that's the crux of the issue, you should look at the TS on how they are in 40k, instead of looking back and trying to recreate 30k TS.
They are the same people, with more experience, yep they are a collection of sorcerer kings, as well as many other things, some of which reside on the planet of sorcerors. There organisation is still roughly equivalent to the legions of old, as seen in the chaos marine codex, they have access to dark mechanhicus forge worlds and build there own kit, we don't know how they recruit, the internal heirarchy is still military based as shown in several novels, but different from the heresy naming conventions, yes the list goes on.
They do have access to a lot of the same gear as the heresy, they just don't have them on the models, if they wanted 4 auto cannon for a rubric havoc squad, they would just pay for them, steal them or make a deal for them, like every other chaos legion/chapter, they do have standard bolters etc. But with inferno bolts, different ammunition basically, and yep I agree they should have freaky warp based gear, in addition to the basics, not instead of the the basics.
And yep that is the crux of the issue, the 40k sons are not consistent with the 30k ones, the new codex needs to explain why they are not consistent to satisfy me, it needs to explain who drives the vehicles, how they replace loses, where all that equipment went, why sorcerors are so dumb they can't band a few guys together to form special weapon, heavy and other units when they are the same sorcerers that served with those same units, did they forget there training or somthing?
Most importantly the "no model, no rules" crap needs to die, give us these units, let us make them and covert them.
They were ALREADY expensive in points, and Plague Marines still are after Chapter Approved. That argument doesn't hold an inch of water.
That misses the point - and they should be I'd rather have T5 and 5+++ or 5++, +1 save, and relentless over an extra attack any day.
YOU are missing the point. The extra attack is something Berserker, Noise, and Plague Marines had in some form, whether it be base or from having an extra weapon. Plague Marines are the only ones that lost this and that's ridiculous.
I'd argue Rubric Marines need the extra attack too out of principle but that's a different topic.
Oi vey.
DG in 7th were base 1. VV were base 2. Exactly what they are now.
So, yea, DG "lost" an attack from the 2 ccw rule, but now have a ton more options and can STILL get to 2 attacks if they want to. Why a 22 point axe/knife DG kills 0.64 VV and a 16 point VV kills 0.22 DG. Hell even a 17 point double knife DG kills 0.26 VV.
So, yea if you want your DG to cost way more with 2 attacks base then good for you.
They're supposed to be Veterans is the point. How many editions have you played?
They not only lost an attack from the extra Bolt Pistol plus Knife....they lost the Bolt Pistol! I don't need Plague Marines robbed cheaper because Cultists and now Pox Walkers do that job.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait so what's the complaint here? Can someone sum it up for me?
Is it really that there aren't enough Rubric Marines in other slots to go with the Rubric Marine troops choices?
Some don't like that tzaangors are taking focus from the thousand sons in the thousand sons codex.
Some think there is a lack of units for thousand sons themselves.
I personally think the book will be uninspired and yet another wasted opportunity to bring fresh blood into a stale concept, it will have all the usual bells and whistles of 8th, 1 or two gimmicks and then we will still be stuck with a lack of thousand sons units, in short I think gw are going to make a boring codex
"Tzaangors" are taking the "focus" from 1k sons? What does that phrase mean exactly? The rules focus? The focus of the eye (as in they look better)? The narrative focus?
And there's probably not a lack of units. Sororitas have 11 (?) choices, and 1k sons will probably have about that many in their dex.
As for the 'dex being boring: what does that mean? That you'll not be entertained by it personally? That it won't do anything cool and flashy? That it'll be uninspiring for people that don't already play 1k sons? Or even uninspiring for existing 1k sons players?
Unit1126PLL wrote: "Tzaangors" are taking the "focus" from 1k sons? What does that phrase mean exactly? The rules focus? The focus of the eye (as in they look better)? The narrative focus?
And there's probably not a lack of units. Sororitas have 11 (?) choices, and 1k sons will probably have about that many in their dex.
As for the 'dex being boring: what does that mean? That you'll not be entertained by it personally? That it won't do anything cool and flashy? That it'll be uninspiring for people that don't already play 1k sons? Or even uninspiring for existing 1k sons players?
You must have missed the last several pages.
Thousand Sons is not a competitive stand alone codex and certainly not a fair one for those who want to play the actual Legion Thousand Sons. There are 3 unique Thousand Sons kits not including special characters. We just got 2 new Tzaangor units, bumping us to 3, maybe a 4th if Skyfires become legal. Thousand Sons units themselves are far too expensive and specialized meaning you have to bring Tzaangors (by design of the index/codex) to fill in the spots. This basically means (to me and many others) we are playing a Tzaangor codex backed up by support Thousand Sons. The focus/spotlight feels like it's on the Gors and not the Marines.
