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Chaff is a distraction desgined to draw enemy fire so you suffer less losses. Agreed? Ap- weapons will cause 1 model lost per 6 wounds done. 20 points. Ap- weapons will cause 4 models lost per 6 wounds done. 28 points. You lose more by bringing Tzaangors then Rubrics. They are not chaff.
Some people use chaff and bubble wrap interchangeably. In TS Tzaangors are bubble wrap not chaff. Their main purpose being to provide a distance buffer between rubrics and incoming deepstrikers.
Keeping your back line from being easily infiltrated also allows you to focus on keeping your rubrics shooting instead of spreading them out to push the 9" bubble.
Zhan wrote: I don't know why you guys keep replying to Crimson at all. He clearly is just here to troll.
Every time you make a argument he will just say you don't deserve it because army X have it worse. If you argue army X need more stuff he will tell you to stop whining because squats have it worse. As if these are valid arguments at all.
We are here to discuss what TS need to be a fun and balanced army not to compare how poor/sad other armies have it.
You must realise I said no such thing?
I even agreed that it would be nice if FW could provide some conversion kits for new rubric units and/or 40K rules for Osiron. I was merely saying that it was unrealistic to expect new plastic kits so soon after the last batch of TS plastics, and lack of such kits doesn't mean that the army is somehow terrible or dead. Furthermore, I pointed out that complaining about shared units with CSM is pretty weird, considering that this sort of thing happens with most factions (and is not a terrible thing, it is perfectly fine) and in fact matches the fluff.
I also tried to correct clear factual errors such as number of kits.
I also said that it was premature to complain about the lack of psychic oomp, before we know what's in the codex. Now we know better, and I can say that there seems to be serious effort to make TS psychic phase quite effective. How well that will work in practice of course remains to be seen.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: This is what I said fully about the Shaman, next time try searching for everything and not just what makes you right.
Here is a lesson in logic.
1.) Everything is what it is (a=a)
2.) Everything is not what it isn't (a=/=b)
3.) Everything is never both nor neither (a=/= ~a and ~b)
Now you have READ things about the stream, that's great. Know, in this instance, means to have knowledge of in this sense. Knowledge means you have a justified, true, belief, (there are some problems there, but we wont get into that). You have no knowledge of the stream you have rumors about the stream, you don't know what happened on the stream you know what you have READ about the stream. You don't know that in the Second turn when Eddie should have lost his entire squad of Tzaangors he lost only 17 (out of 30), you don't know those 17 Tzaangors lasted until the end of game. You don't know that the Rubrics did all of feth the entire stream, that the SOT lasted exactly 2 rounds of combat against them killing only 2 models, you don't know that Magnus died in the second turn because He killed Valorium (or whatever the Characters name is for the Custodes) and he got his free I'm dying attack and killed Magnus with it. you don't know that the Pred sat in the back and did feth all the entire game.
After all that do you know what you know about the stream? Still nothing you know what someone wrote about the stream.
"Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units."
-Quote from Thousand Sons Sorcerer
Agian, you pulled only the thing that made you right. You aren't looking to find what is true your looking to find what makes you right.
When people said "11 TS and 40 Tzaangors but you could do the opposite", no you can't Rubrics cost almost 3x Tzaangors with NO upgrades, but you parroted it because it made you right, that requires zero thought.
You even said I was right once you just don't realize it. When you mentioned bringing Horrors or Tzzangors, and dropping them infront of the enemy army, then mentioned dropping a unit of Rubrics.
Now since you know so much about the stream and all, and how I am so wrong. Answer me this, Would Eddie have been better off if he had dropped the SOT squad and the cultist squad and brought 4 10 man units of Tzaangors instead?
Trajan his name is Trajan
Hold up.
You're now saying you didn't complain that Tzaangors would be too efficient with a +1 to-hit buff? Because you did. I quoted it at you from another one of your posts. You explicitly said they'd be too good with it so they wouldn't get it, Shaman or not. Ergo, like anything else positive that we've seen or has been implied about this codex, you've found a baseless negative point to counter it.
Oh my god, a lesson in logic from the user who made the "Thousand Sons are dead..." topic before he had any defining evidence to support his claims that Rubricae would no longer see the table because a handful of new Tzaangor units were announced! Wow! I'm honoured!
.....Could it get any more ironic? Answer; yes it can! The same person made this post after not being proven correct at all!
I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"
Am I actually reading this or did I accidentally snort some weed this morning? I'm not sure this is real, can someone slap me and wake me up?
Besides, here's a fun fact for you bub; I know almost as much about the stream as you, I got the most important details about the stream from other people. Ergo, your claim that I know "nothing" was and is still.....like most claims you've made in this thread.....wrong. I know all of the, you know, important stuff from the stream. Me not caring enough to watch a stream for all the pointless irrelevant events you bring up does not signify total lack of knowledge. However, being aware of our Deep Strike stratagem, the Mutaliths' basic stats, the damage potential of the Enlightened, the effects of some of the new psychic powers, the very presence of said new psychic powers, the teleporting Relic, the changes to Magnus' aura and his new preset Warlord Trait, etc....you know, stuff that will be relevant for everyone and not something that is unique to a single players' playing experience (I'm speaking of dice and tactics, stuff which changes on a game-to-game basis, whereas codex rules don't).
Again with the backtracking! Amazing! I'm shocked! Well, not that shocked.
You've been parroting that we will barely see Rubrics and Scarab Occult in favour of Tzaangors, a problem amplified in your mind by the addition of new Tzaangor units. This topic isn't solely about "muh narrative" and you know it, otherwise I wouldn't have the plethora of rules-related declarations from you about it to source from.
I mean....hey, wait a second, you made a post that says the exact opposite after you made this post I'm replying to! Self-contradiction alert!
Were not talking about pther armies were talking about TS and whether Tzaangors will be better to take then Rubrics.
You *can* do 40 Rubrics and 11 Tzaangors. 40 Rubric marines runs less than 1000 points. You could take 2 Shamans and 9 Enlightened instead. Exchanging 30 Tzaangors for the 35 additional Rubric Marines that list could have used would have made the list different....which is exactly the point. It would have been a different list that does different things. They would have had to drop a few units to fit them in. 40 Rubrics are way harder to shift than 40 Tzaangors in most situations; even if they are tied on invulnerable saves (i.e. AP-3 or better and Damage greater than 1) the Rubrics still have better morale. Damage-wise, 40 Rubrics will punish pretty much any infantry unit they can touch, especially with Veterans of the Long War added in. The Tzaangors, on the other hand, do all their damage up close and personal. I've personally run 40-strong Rubric lists (I've actually ran a 50-strong one once too) and they are a lot of fun, just a bit unwieldy. I had Tzaangors to prop them up as well. I've gotten wins against high ranking ITC players with that type of list by playing smart and making the most of All is Dust. Weirdly, I wasn't just running 5 man Rubric units with Tzaangors and characters filling out the rest of my points like you claim. I wonder why.
Also, what? How does mentioning Deep Striking Pink Horrors, Tzaangors and Rubric Marines make you right? What?What? Deep Strike Pink Horrors + Rubric Marines to clear different types of chaff (Warptimed Rubric Marines with Warpflamers can deal with Rangers, whereas Pink Horrors can't, for example, but Pink Horrors are better against GEQs and probably MEQs). Then teleport (relic) Tzaangors forward and Warptime them into combat. One-two-punch. Alternatively, if you want to try and mimic the Bloodletter Bomb, Deep Strike the Tzaangors and Warptime them forward first. All those options us Thousand Sons players didn't have previously, which we have now thanks to this codex. Gee whiz!
Who cares? I don't, and you don't get my point, so I won't bother answering that.
What about him?
Also, I'm just going to randomly quote a few comments here which I take particular umbrage with and respond to them as I feel appropriate.
Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.
Tzaangor Enlightened are the chosen of Tzeentch, though. Before you repeat the "but Tzaangors are chaff according to you!" argument, consider; a lowly Guardsmen might look like nothing, and that Company Commander may look like something, but ultimately, that Commander came from nothing because he was originally a Guardsman. The fluff of the Enlightened is that they are venerated among their beast-kind as the greatest and most successful of the Tzaangors who have proven themselves worthy of the adulation of Tzeentch, being rewarded thusly. They are still ultimately Tzaangors, but they are Tzaangors that figuratively stand head and shoulders above the rest of their debased kin thanks to their many accomplishments. Think of it like this; a Chaos Marauder is not as powerful as a Chaos Warrior, but one that proves him or herself becomes particularly blessed and venerated beyond regular Chaos Warriors, like Wulfric the Wanderer. Look at Enlightened and Shamans in that sense and the fact that they ride disks all of a sudden makes perfect sense. Besides, Ahriman and the Exalted Sorcerers ride Disks of Tzeentch too. If I'm not mistaken, the Chaos Index and previous editions had the option for Chaos Lords to ride Disks of Tzeentch.
The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.
"Unsold models" is a bit of stretch, the Tzeentch Arcanites range sells like hot-cakes. The Enlightened are even sought after by 40K players looking for more Disks of Tzeentch to use with their Daemons and Thousand Sons.
If we want to look at it as just wanting to get even more cash out of an already successful range, consider this perspective as it applies to a lot of people; if you play both 40K and AoS, everything in the Arcanites range is compatible with 40K in some way. Some units have rules like the Tzaangors and Enlightened, and others can easily represent different units; Kairic Acolytes make perfect Tzeentch Cultists, their lack of guns is fine because in AoS they shoot sorcerous bolts that are explicitly missile weapons and not wizard powers rules-wise, so extrapolating that to autoguns or autopistols is fine provided you let people know about that detail. Ogroid Thaumaturges work well as Tzeentch Daemon Princes lacking wings, Gaunt Summoners and the Arcanite Sorcerer (the old WHFB model), the Magister would be a great Cultist Champion if you're using the Acolyte models, the Fatemaster can be a human shaman that is represented with the rules of the Tzaangor Shaman, the Curseling works potentially as a human Sorcerer that has been lavished with gifts or could be another unit champion for Cultists, etc and obviously all the Daemons are cross compatible. It's great for someone like me that already owns large amounts of all the armies present, obviously that's not the case for everyone but....and here's the important detail.
If you don't want to buy any of the new stuff or the Tzaangors in general, no-one is forcing you to. Until we see the codex, making an informed decision on the competitive nature of an all-Rubric (i.e. no mutants) Thousand Sons army is impossible. It's the detail that everyone in this thread keeps trying to make you aware of but you are being wilfully ignorant of it.
Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade
And this proves you right in the "Thousand Sons are dead" debate...how? We knew we weren't getting new power-armoured models. We did know we were getting new mutant models. It still doesn't explain how "Thousand Sons are dead" according to you.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
You made this in response to "we're getting 18 psychic powers". Now, to be fair, you did say you expect us to get one or two. However, you've also been saying it makes no difference because Aspiring Sorcerers will just blow themselves up...when anyone that's actually used Rubric Marines knows that's not actually the case. Besides, predicting we would get at least one new discipline isn't exactly a feat Nostrodamus would be proud of.
By the way, speaking of being "right" you've been saying recently that we've got over 20 stratagems per the stream, yet your earlier prediction in this thread was;
We are not going to get 10 strats unique to our army DG got 14 we will get probably 14 with the generic ones taking up 8.
It's good to be wrong in the right way, isn't it? That's what this thread is really about. Catharsis, being proven wrong but in the best way possible, discovering new things about yourself along the way.
Side-note, wait until we get the codex in hand before you declare that "Thousand Sons are dead" next time.
Because thats not the Army I was sold, I was sold an army of Rubrics lead by powerful Sorcerers.
Again, it would be like GW annocing the new Black Templars led by Psykers of the eldar faction.
Except that's....not at all what is going here.
Firstly, the "army you were sold" is the army you can still buy and play. You can happily play without ever touching anything mutated. No-one is forcing you to buy Tzaangors. Tzaangors have been a part of Thousand Sons lore from, what, 2nd Edition? Adding them back to the Thousand Sons is good for two reasons; it's a fluff-supported addition, and it gives Thousand Sons a new tool to use which they can benefit a lot from.
Secondly, how does Tzaangors - who are an established part of Thousand Sons lore - being added back to said Thousand Sons army invalidate lore in any way? The Tzaangors are the slave population of the Planet of Sorcerers, and we've known this for literal decades. How is it in any way equivalent to psykers from a xenos faction leading overtly zealous loyalist Space Marines?
Besides, you are the person that said this;
This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this
Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
So...thematically you have a problem with Tzaangors who are an established part of Thousand Sons lore...but at the same time, you'd rather have Restored Thousand Sons who have been "cured" of the Rubric which is fluff destroying seeing as we know only Yvraine has been capable of such a feat (and promptly killed all of them)...but you are complaining about "Rubrics that people used to field" being dead....so you suggest non-Rubric Thousand Sons....My head hurts. I swear there must be a bong around here somewhere.
How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.
This is it. This is where you lose all pretence of "thematically it ruins the army" or whatever other inane topic you are babbling about.
You made this thread because you are convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that Rubric Marines will not be worth taking in the new codex, declaring as such without even acknowledging the possibility that you might be wrong when you had and still have zero evidence to support an outrageous claim.This is why this forum thinks this thread is a laughing stock and have been commenting as such.
You realize im saying none of that right?
What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying.
Except that's what you literally said in the quote I just posted. It's telling that you can't even stick to the same solid argument.
You say the army of Rubrics we used to field on the tabletop is dead, yet nothing is stopping you from running the same army of Rubrics you used to field led by powerful Sorcerers and supported by whatever heretical forces you desire. Tzaangors just add more mutant options into the fray to support your Rubrics. Scarab Occult give you a Rubric unit that you never used to have. Exalted Sorcerers give you powerful Chaos Lord and Sorcerer hybrids that are thematic and designed to supplement your Rubrics. Magnus himself is available at your whim.
Prove anything from the previous paragraph wrong. You can't, because...as we've been saying all along...you lack the evidence to support your claim. By the way, Rubric Marines are better in 8th Edition than they were in 7th Edition, 6th Edition, 5th Edition and 4th Edition at bare minimum. We're also getting new ways to play them that we haven't had before, like Deep Striking them instead of having to foot-slog or use a pricey transport. It's almost like the new codex expands on the units that a Thousand Sons player wields to make them more useful and fun to play with.
Thanks for playing
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/21 22:43:46
Zhan wrote:I don't know why you guys keep replying to Crimson at all. He clearly is just here to troll.
Every time you make a argument he will just say you don't deserve it because army X have it worse. If you argue army X need more stuff he will tell you to stop whining because squats have it worse. As if these are valid arguments at all.
We are here to discuss what TS need to be a fun and balanced army not to compare how poor/sad other armies have it.
If anyone's here to troll, I don't think it's Crimson.
The title of this thread is "Thousand Sons are dead" - if Crimson can prove another army has it worse, then it's incorrect. Besides - I don't think (prove me wrong here) that anyone's been saying "X have it worse" - I think it's been more "Thousand Sons aren't crippled, you don't need Tzaangors, you're in a better state than you were beforeand. You've lost nothing, only gained things, and the flavour of the faction is unchanged from what it was in 5th, barring you now have optional Tzaangor allies."
Oh i will not deny that he is rather salty about it and over dramatizing it but a lot of people do keep throwing the "you got models last year and now more options so stop crying" in his face which is not helpful/constructive in any way either.
Those are just statements to trigger him which leads to a angry reply and round the circle goes.
You are partially right. Compared to the index we will only gain stuff true. But we lost a LOT going from the 7th to the 8th edition. Imho more then any other army. We went from ~60 different powers (60 different ways to "equip" your rubrics/scarabs units ) to 1!
Not saying all the 7th edition stuff was working very well for various reasons but at least it you had options to choose and play around with.
Fun is subjective, but Tzaangors shouldn't really affect that, considering they're optional - your comments below about psychic warfare are good, but I fear it's more of an 8th issue than TS.
Balanced, we can't really tell without having the codex here. We can't say they'll be brilliant or terrible, but from what we can seen, they're clearly not as bad as the title makes out.
I know its more of a 8th edition problem then a TS one. In the 7th edition i was thinking of new ways to use the psychic powers for months. In the 8th edition it took me 2 games to grow bored with the entire psychic phase. Which is the main selling point of a TS army
I do not have a problem with the tzaangors in general. I think having tzaangors is a great way to display to compensate and display the near extinct nature of the thousand sons. And don't really see Sorcerer disagreeing with that.
But what sort annoys me too is that all the TS units are going to be the "lowly bolter unit" while the tzaangors are going to be our " special weapon unit".
And that honestly that doesn't really sit right with me. Thousand sons units should have more worth on the table-top then tzaangors. You should be able to sacrifice your tzaangor units on the table to save a TS unit and feel good about doing it
And if tzaangors are going to be our "special weapons unit" i don't really agree that they will be optional if you want to build a balanced TS list. (With balanced list i mean in the sense of being able to handle different situations. Because you're right talking about whats strong/weak is pointless before the codex drops)
Back to the topic:
Imo the TS suffer from the MW mechanic only in the psychic phase the most. In the 7th edition you had psychic powers for everything: anti-tank/anti-horde/mobility spells etc. If you have a psychic solution to all problems a full psyker army like the TS can work.
And this is also what appealed to me in the 7th. If thousands sons needed something done they turn to psychic powers.
But in the 8th edition we are limited to mortal wound spells. Which is very good against elite armies but not against armies with a high model count. So in order to keep these powers somewhat relevant, GW make these powers function as "sniper rifles" to take out characters.
Which i feel is rather out of place for psychic powers.
You also see it if you look at the tzeentch daemon codex. Which i think is a good showcase for what GW has in mind for psychic heavy armies:
1. Not a lot of changes to the psychic powers. Just expanded the list a bit but no real buffs to the excising ones.
2. The "targeted smites" require a WC of 8+ which makes it only effective sticking it on stuff with a with a +2 to cast (magnus/LoC/Kairos).
On the other hand magnus needs his +1 invul/warptime/-1 to hit so perhaps just stick Doombolt on some rubrics and hope you get lucky once or twice per game.
3. As for the question how to deal with high model count armies. Tzeentch got a lot of buffs in shooting/assault and i think we will be no different. And we also know how they will do it, in the form of tzaangors.
I don't think Tzaangors will be great at much - they'll fill some small gaps, but they offensively won't change too much.
They DO shift things in that they are a cheap, screening unit - that will be a new realm the TS can explore.
A possible reason as to why the TS don't have a masssive focus on psychic powers is because GW wants to avoid the psychic battery mess caused in 7th.
The cheap screening units we've had since last year and they where welcomed with open arms. Because these cannon fodder tzaangors goes hand in hand with fluff and what TS need.
But a tzaangor shaman that's going be hiding behind rubrics ? Also knowledge is power. A TS sharing warp knowledge with mutants? They killed hundreds of their brothers because they where Flesh Changing and they hated/feared it.
No way mutated creatures are very welcome in the ranks of the thousand sons (Just like on the interwebs )
I think they went waaaay to far with the whole psychic phase. Especially when you sell psychic focused armies.
Overall not too exciting stuff imho. Ironically to me they will become like every other 40k army. Mostly a shooting/assault army with some psychic support. They only difference is that we do not have/get a power armored model army.
Sorry, correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but "power armour"? What is it that Rubricae, Ahriman, Aspiring Sorcerors (and if you push the definition of power armour out to Space Marines armour, Scarab Occult) wear if not power armour?
Sorry my statement was inaccurate. i mend to say an exclusively "power armored" army. Because you are right we still have some power armored dudes. But that wasn't the point i was trying to make.
What i was trying say is that a thousand sons army is defined by it's use of almost exclusively psychic powers. This is how operate differently then any other (chaos) space marine legion/chapter out there. Adding a bunch of shooting/assault into the army to compensate for a limited psychic phase takes some of that uniqueness away. In other words, your thousand sons army will start to play similarly to other (C)SM armies, who use assault/shooting as base with some psychic support. You just use tzaangors models instead of power armored models. (Bit of a overstatement but i hope you get my drift)
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: This is what I said fully about the Shaman, next time try searching for everything and not just what makes you right.
Here is a lesson in logic.
1.) Everything is what it is (a=a)
2.) Everything is not what it isn't (a=/=b)
3.) Everything is never both nor neither (a=/= ~a and ~b)
Now you have READ things about the stream, that's great. Know, in this instance, means to have knowledge of in this sense. Knowledge means you have a justified, true, belief, (there are some problems there, but we wont get into that). You have no knowledge of the stream you have rumors about the stream, you don't know what happened on the stream you know what you have READ about the stream. You don't know that in the Second turn when Eddie should have lost his entire squad of Tzaangors he lost only 17 (out of 30), you don't know those 17 Tzaangors lasted until the end of game. You don't know that the Rubrics did all of feth the entire stream, that the SOT lasted exactly 2 rounds of combat against them killing only 2 models, you don't know that Magnus died in the second turn because He killed Valorium (or whatever the Characters name is for the Custodes) and he got his free I'm dying attack and killed Magnus with it. you don't know that the Pred sat in the back and did feth all the entire game.
After all that do you know what you know about the stream? Still nothing you know what someone wrote about the stream.
"Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units."
-Quote from Thousand Sons Sorcerer
Agian, you pulled only the thing that made you right. You aren't looking to find what is true your looking to find what makes you right.
When people said "11 TS and 40 Tzaangors but you could do the opposite", no you can't Rubrics cost almost 3x Tzaangors with NO upgrades, but you parroted it because it made you right, that requires zero thought.
You even said I was right once you just don't realize it. When you mentioned bringing Horrors or Tzzangors, and dropping them infront of the enemy army, then mentioned dropping a unit of Rubrics.
Now since you know so much about the stream and all, and how I am so wrong. Answer me this, Would Eddie have been better off if he had dropped the SOT squad and the cultist squad and brought 4 10 man units of Tzaangors instead?
Trajan his name is Trajan
Hold up.
You're now saying you didn't complain that Tzaangors would be too efficient with a +1 to-hit buff? Because you did. I quoted it at you from another one of your posts. You explicitly said they'd be too good with it so they wouldn't get it, Shaman or not. Ergo, like anything else positive that we've seen or has been implied about this codex, you've found a baseless negative point to counter it.
Oh my god, a lesson in logic from the user who made the "Thousand Sons are dead..." topic before he had any defining evidence to support his claims that Rubricae would no longer see the table because a handful of new Tzaangor units were announced! Wow! I'm honoured!
.....Could it get any more ironic? Answer; yes it can! The same person made this post after not being proven correct at all!
I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"
Am I actually reading this or did I accidentally snort some weed this morning? I'm not sure this is real, can someone slap me and wake me up?
Besides, here's a fun fact for you bub; I know almost as much about the stream as you, I got the most important details about the stream from other people. Ergo, your claim that I know "nothing" was and is still.....like most claims you've made in this thread.....wrong. I know all of the, you know, important stuff from the stream. Me not caring enough to watch a stream for all the pointless irrelevant events you bring up does not signify total lack of knowledge. However, being aware of our Deep Strike stratagem, the Mutaliths' basic stats, the damage potential of the Enlightened, the effects of some of the new psychic powers, the very presence of said new psychic powers, the teleporting Relic, the changes to Magnus' aura and his new preset Warlord Trait, etc....you know, stuff that will be relevant for everyone and not something that is unique to a single players' playing experience (I'm speaking of dice and tactics, stuff which changes on a game-to-game basis, whereas codex rules don't).
Again with the backtracking! Amazing! I'm shocked! Well, not that shocked.
You've been parroting that we will barely see Rubrics and Scarab Occult in favour of Tzaangors, a problem amplified in your mind by the addition of new Tzaangor units. This topic isn't solely about "muh narrative" and you know it, otherwise I wouldn't have the plethora of rules-related declarations from you about it to source from.
I mean....hey, wait a second, you made a post that says the exact opposite after you made this post I'm replying to! Self-contradiction alert!
Were not talking about pther armies were talking about TS and whether Tzaangors will be better to take then Rubrics.
You *can* do 40 Rubrics and 11 Tzaangors. 40 Rubric marines runs less than 1000 points. You could take 2 Shamans and 9 Enlightened instead. Exchanging 30 Tzaangors for the 35 additional Rubric Marines that list could have used would have made the list different....which is exactly the point. It would have been a different list that does different things. They would have had to drop a few units to fit them in. 40 Rubrics are way harder to shift than 40 Tzaangors in most situations; even if they are tied on invulnerable saves (i.e. AP-3 or better and Damage greater than 1) the Rubrics still have better morale. Damage-wise, 40 Rubrics will punish pretty much any infantry unit they can touch, especially with Veterans of the Long War added in. The Tzaangors, on the other hand, do all their damage up close and personal. I've personally run 40-strong Rubric lists (I've actually ran a 50-strong one once too) and they are a lot of fun, just a bit unwieldy. I had Tzaangors to prop them up as well. I've gotten wins against high ranking ITC players with that type of list by playing smart and making the most of All is Dust. Weirdly, I wasn't just running 5 man Rubric units with Tzaangors and characters filling out the rest of my points like you claim. I wonder why.
Also, what? How does mentioning Deep Striking Pink Horrors, Tzaangors and Rubric Marines make you right? What?What? Deep Strike Pink Horrors + Rubric Marines to clear different types of chaff (Warptimed Rubric Marines with Warpflamers can deal with Rangers, whereas Pink Horrors can't, for example, but Pink Horrors are better against GEQs and probably MEQs). Then teleport (relic) Tzaangors forward and Warptime them into combat. One-two-punch. Alternatively, if you want to try and mimic the Bloodletter Bomb, Deep Strike the Tzaangors and Warptime them forward first. All those options us Thousand Sons players didn't have previously, which we have now thanks to this codex. Gee whiz!
Who cares? I don't, and you don't get my point, so I won't bother answering that.
What about him?
Also, I'm just going to randomly quote a few comments here which I take particular umbrage with and respond to them as I feel appropriate.
Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.
Tzaangor Enlightened are the chosen of Tzeentch, though. Before you repeat the "but Tzaangors are chaff according to you!" argument, consider; a lowly Guardsmen might look like nothing, and that Company Commander may look like something, but ultimately, that Commander came from nothing because he was originally a Guardsman. The fluff of the Enlightened is that they are venerated among their beast-kind as the greatest and most successful of the Tzaangors who have proven themselves worthy of the adulation of Tzeentch, being rewarded thusly. They are still ultimately Tzaangors, but they are Tzaangors that figuratively stand head and shoulders above the rest of their debased kin thanks to their many accomplishments. Think of it like this; a Chaos Marauder is not as powerful as a Chaos Warrior, but one that proves him or herself becomes particularly blessed and venerated beyond regular Chaos Warriors, like Wulfric the Wanderer. Look at Enlightened and Shamans in that sense and the fact that they ride disks all of a sudden makes perfect sense. Besides, Ahriman and the Exalted Sorcerers ride Disks of Tzeentch too. If I'm not mistaken, the Chaos Index and previous editions had the option for Chaos Lords to ride Disks of Tzeentch.
The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.
"Unsold models" is a bit of stretch, the Tzeentch Arcanites range sells like hot-cakes. The Enlightened are even sought after by 40K players looking for more Disks of Tzeentch to use with their Daemons and Thousand Sons.
If we want to look at it as just wanting to get even more cash out of an already successful range, consider this perspective as it applies to a lot of people; if you play both 40K and AoS, everything in the Arcanites range is compatible with 40K in some way. Some units have rules like the Tzaangors and Enlightened, and others can easily represent different units; Kairic Acolytes make perfect Tzeentch Cultists, their lack of guns is fine because in AoS they shoot sorcerous bolts that are explicitly missile weapons and not wizard powers rules-wise, so extrapolating that to autoguns or autopistols is fine provided you let people know about that detail. Ogroid Thaumaturges work well as Tzeentch Daemon Princes lacking wings, Gaunt Summoners and the Arcanite Sorcerer (the old WHFB model), the Magister would be a great Cultist Champion if you're using the Acolyte models, the Fatemaster can be a human shaman that is represented with the rules of the Tzaangor Shaman, the Curseling works potentially as a human Sorcerer that has been lavished with gifts or could be another unit champion for Cultists, etc and obviously all the Daemons are cross compatible. It's great for someone like me that already owns large amounts of all the armies present, obviously that's not the case for everyone but....and here's the important detail.
If you don't want to buy any of the new stuff or the Tzaangors in general, no-one is forcing you to. Until we see the codex, making an informed decision on the competitive nature of an all-Rubric (i.e. no mutants) Thousand Sons army is impossible. It's the detail that everyone in this thread keeps trying to make you aware of but you are being wilfully ignorant of it.
Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade
And this proves you right in the "Thousand Sons are dead" debate...how? We knew we weren't getting new power-armoured models. We did know we were getting new mutant models. It still doesn't explain how "Thousand Sons are dead" according to you.
Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.
You made this in response to "we're getting 18 psychic powers". Now, to be fair, you did say you expect us to get one or two. However, you've also been saying it makes no difference because Aspiring Sorcerers will just blow themselves up...when anyone that's actually used Rubric Marines knows that's not actually the case. Besides, predicting we would get at least one new discipline isn't exactly a feat Nostrodamus would be proud of.
By the way, speaking of being "right" you've been saying recently that we've got over 20 stratagems per the stream, yet your earlier prediction in this thread was;
We are not going to get 10 strats unique to our army DG got 14 we will get probably 14 with the generic ones taking up 8.
It's good to be wrong in the right way, isn't it? That's what this thread is really about. Catharsis, being proven wrong but in the best way possible, discovering new things about yourself along the way.
Side-note, wait until we get the codex in hand before you declare that "Thousand Sons are dead" next time.
Because thats not the Army I was sold, I was sold an army of Rubrics lead by powerful Sorcerers.
Again, it would be like GW annocing the new Black Templars led by Psykers of the eldar faction.
Except that's....not at all what is going here.
Firstly, the "army you were sold" is the army you can still buy and play. You can happily play without ever touching anything mutated. No-one is forcing you to buy Tzaangors. Tzaangors have been a part of Thousand Sons lore from, what, 2nd Edition? Adding them back to the Thousand Sons is good for two reasons; it's a fluff-supported addition, and it gives Thousand Sons a new tool to use which they can benefit a lot from.
Secondly, how does Tzaangors - who are an established part of Thousand Sons lore - being added back to said Thousand Sons army invalidate lore in any way? The Tzaangors are the slave population of the Planet of Sorcerers, and we've known this for literal decades. How is it in any way equivalent to psykers from a xenos faction leading overtly zealous loyalist Space Marines?
Besides, you are the person that said this;
This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this
Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
So...thematically you have a problem with Tzaangors who are an established part of Thousand Sons lore...but at the same time, you'd rather have Restored Thousand Sons who have been "cured" of the Rubric which is fluff destroying seeing as we know only Yvraine has been capable of such a feat (and promptly killed all of them)...but you are complaining about "Rubrics that people used to field" being dead....so you suggest non-Rubric Thousand Sons....My head hurts. I swear there must be a bong around here somewhere.
How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.
This is it. This is where you lose all pretence of "thematically it ruins the army" or whatever other inane topic you are babbling about.
You made this thread because you are convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that Rubric Marines will not be worth taking in the new codex, declaring as such without even acknowledging the possibility that you might be wrong when you had and still have zero evidence to support an outrageous claim.This is why this forum thinks this thread is a laughing stock and have been commenting as such.
You realize im saying none of that right?
What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying.
Except that's what you literally said in the quote I just posted. It's telling that you can't even stick to the same solid argument.
You say the army of Rubrics we used to field on the tabletop is dead, yet nothing is stopping you from running the same army of Rubrics you used to field led by powerful Sorcerers and supported by whatever heretical forces you desire. Tzaangors just add more mutant options into the fray to support your Rubrics. Scarab Occult give you a Rubric unit that you never used to have. Exalted Sorcerers give you powerful Chaos Lord and Sorcerer hybrids that are thematic and designed to supplement your Rubrics. Magnus himself is available at your whim.
Prove anything from the previous paragraph wrong. You can't, because...as we've been saying all along...you lack the evidence to support your claim. By the way, Rubric Marines are better in 8th Edition than they were in 7th Edition, 6th Edition, 5th Edition and 4th Edition at bare minimum. We're also getting new ways to play them that we haven't had before, like Deep Striking them instead of having to foot-slog or use a pricey transport. It's almost like the new codex expands on the units that a Thousand Sons player wields to make them more useful and fun to play with.
Thanks for playing
look man if you can't be polite then please refrain from posting, if you have something you disagree with then attack my argument not me.
1.) I did not complain as you put it I pointed out that would be too good a model for 7 points in other words if you get that the models are going to go up in points, which they aren't going to do with our "chaff" unit.
2.) Just because you sell a lot of something doesn't mean you don't have overstock if I sell 1,000,000 units but ordered 10,000,000 I have overstock. Second it doesn't change the fact that they apparently all of 10,000 Pounds on development for the TS development.
3.) The rest of what you said is either outright false or totally irrational, I am just going to ignore you now.
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Well, by technicality, yes, you can. Spearhead Detachments, Outrider Detachments, etc etc. Deathwing is an army you can field solo, as is Death Company (and have been able to be fielded as a standalone force for longer, I believe, than Rubricae).
Again - until very recently, you were never able to have a full TS army. This is a first, first time they've ever had a designated codex of their own.
Glad to see you agree. Before you say you don't agree understand that saying "me too" or " them too" means it's happening to them as well, not that it isn't happening.
If this is what I think you're referring to, my second paragraph, I think it was very clear that I was being sarcastic, and that I found the notion of SOT and RM being the same thing to be incorrect.
Take me out of context, but I want to make it very clear that I do not agree.
Check the options for RM and SOT then check the options for CSM and Chaos Termies. Note the difference in loadout options for the latter nad the lack of difference in the former.
I don't know what this is referring to, could you explain?
How should we decide who are TS then? Your method of anything that has the TS keyword on it? So A SM with the TS keyword is TS? How about a Grot? Eldar Guardian? Blood Claws? My method of thinking that if they were affected by the rubric THAT makes them TS.
I disagree. In the same way a BA unit with the BA keyword is BA. I don't care if it's generic, it's a valid unit.
Your other examples aren't even CSM - of course they don't. If it's in the TS codex, of course it's a TS. Unless you want to say Ultramarines Scouts aren't Ultramarines.
Chaff is a distraction desgined to draw enemy fire so you suffer less losses. Agreed? Ap- weapons will cause 1 model lost per 6 wounds done. 20 points. Ap- weapons will cause 4 models lost per 6 wounds done. 28 points. You lose more by bringing Tzaangors then Rubrics. They are not chaff.
I think I may have mixed up my usage of chaff and bubble wrap. Again, what you want to be doing is making sure the Tzaangors are intercepting and tying up that AP-2 firepower for the Rubricae.
Chosen as in leaders of Armies you know the people who used to be the only ones that had access to them, now Tzaangors have them? I thought Tzaangors were chaff? All of a sudden there super special?
I mean, that's like saying "Guardsmen and Company Commanders are like, the same thing. Why do Company Commanders get access to refractor fields?!" It's because these particular Tzaangors have been chosen by Tzeentch to ride their Disks. Again, it's in the same way that people arbitrarily decided that it's wrong to give my Captain a heavy bolter, despite having more authority than a Devastator Marine to carry it into battle.
Equipment be weird.
And you realize that is something they made up right? They could have just as easily said eh lets make a Psyker dread with the rules we already have and the model we already have, why not? Oh, cause it will hurt our birdman sales.
GW could have turned round and not given you anything at all. Also, I don't believe GW have a psyker dread - FW do, and they might get round to it. That's on them, not GW.
It's funny because your arguing that you agree with me with the fluff, the fluff is Hordes of Tzaangors a few Rubrics and powerful Sorcs leading them.
I don't see what you're arguing here.
You can have Tzaangor hordes guarding Rubricae. You can take all Rubric. Both are fluffy.
Check the options for RM and SOT then check the options for CSM and Chaos Termies. Note the difference in loadout options for the latter nad the lack of difference in the former.
I don't know what this is referring to, could you explain?
He's talking about how CSM terminators can be equipped in a myriad of ways with many different weapons, which ignores that CSM termies are the exception to the rule in the terminator world.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: [spoiler]look man if you can't be polite then please refrain from posting, if you have something you disagree with then attack my argument not me.
1.) I did not complain as you put it I pointed out that would be too good a model for 7 points in other words if you get that the models are going to go up in points, which they aren't going to do with our "chaff" unit.
2.) Just because you sell a lot of something doesn't mean you don't have overstock if I sell 1,000,000 units but ordered 10,000,000 I have overstock. Second it doesn't change the fact that they apparently all of 10,000 Pounds on development for the TS development.
3.) The rest of what you said is either outright false or totally irrational, I am just going to ignore you now.
I'm being just as polite as you are. You've been taking a condescending tone through most of this thread directed at anyone that disagrees with you.
"attack my argument not me"
I literally just showcased everyone irrefutable evidence that you've not only been contradicting yourself incessantly, you also have no legs to stand on when it comes to the premise of this very thread. Technically, I guess I didn't "attack" your argument. I destroyed it. I killed it so hard that you're now falling on the "refrain from posting" tactic when you yourself have been notably snarky. Self contradiction and hypocrisy goes hand in hand with making declarative statements in a factual tone when tangible evidence either suggests otherwise or is unavailable.
To cut it short, this thread is stupid. I don't think you are stupid. I think you made a silly proclamation without justifiable merit to said claim based solely on the few scraps of information we received about a book, a book that we still don't know everything about nearly a fortnight after you made said statement. I think you are choosing to fall on your sword rather than admit that maybe, just maybe, you erred in making this thread. I think you really need to consider what details we have versus what details we lack, then take a chill pill and wait for more information before proceeding with the "Thousand Sons are dead" narrative. That's all we ask.
1) There we go with the contradiction. You said;
What I said was they wont give a +1 to hit aura for the Tzaangor Shaman because they wont tie it to something that can't be taken away easily, so I was right.
To which I pointed out that you also said;
“your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 Ap-1 attacks and hits on 2”
So which is it? Mind you, you are saying said model would be too good in a game where Bloodletters exist, the model that, on the charge, gets 2 S5 AP-3 attacks and hits on 2s in units of 20 or more....and is the same price as Tzaangors.
2) Firstly, I know how stock works. I was pointing out to you that the theory that they gave these units 40K rules as a direct money-grab isn't necessarily accurate, because you could argue the opposite way and say Tzeentch players get the most cross-compatible kits of any army in the game, increasing their value for players. The fact that those kits (bar the Mutalith) sell so well as-is decreases the likelihood of it being a straight money grab, and you can't in good conscience say they have deigned to "cram unsold models down our throats" when nobody is forcing you to buy them.
3) Outright false You've misreported that Enlightened had 1 Wound and Mutaliths had no invulnerable save. You said we won't get more than 14 stratagems, that new Tzaangor options being added to the only army that makes use of them in the narrative is somehow thematically dissonant, that the Enlightened shouldn't ride disks because they are "plebs with bows" (which is a multi-faceted inaccuracy seeing as 2 of their 3 build options don't use bows, and there are narrative justifications for them riding Disks), that I somehow know nothing about the stream because I got the information second hand (which makes no logical sense), that you can't do 40 Rubrics and 11 Tzaangors in an army (even if we are talking specifically about the list used in the stream, nothing was stopping the player from using 40 Rubrics and 11 Tzaangors, he could've changed his list and dropped some units to compensate, just because he chose not to doesn't mean he was incapable of doing so), and that's just in the last few posts. Let's go back to post number one, shall we? You said;
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
Which we know for a fact is wrong because the codex circumvents the Smite issue by allowing our lesser psykers access to psychic disciplines. We also know for a fact that "bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless" is a baseless claim because you lack the sufficient evidence to back up said claim.
You also said;
Long live the Tzzentch Gor army
This is pretty much the last nail in the coffin, ironically coming with the Codex which seems fitting I guess.
Even though we've learned that we have ways to teleport and Deep Strike our infantry since you made this post, something that massively helps out Rubric Marines. It's also looking likely - but not guaranteed - that Rubrics and Scarabs will get some type of points drop based on the points extrapolation I did of the Thousand Sons players' list. We also assuredly get Veterans of the Long War in our codex, a stratagem that dramatically improves the efficiency of Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult in the Shooting phase, and we no longer need to take a Chaos Space Marine detachment - which could be, you know, narrative-breaking - to access it.
In fact, let's just go one step back.....to the very first thing anyone noticed about this thread.
Thousand Sons are dead...
Prove it. Prove it.
Speaking of "totally irrational", umm, have you read your own posts in this thread? Were you thinking rationally when you made this thread? When the core conceit of the topic you created is the laughing stock of the forum currently, it's probably not the best idea to suggest others are irrational.
If you ignore me, that's cool. I look forward to reasonable discussion from you in the Thousand Sons tactics thread.
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Chaff is a distraction desgined to draw enemy fire so you suffer less losses. Agreed? Ap- weapons will cause 1 model lost per 6 wounds done. 20 points. Ap- weapons will cause 4 models lost per 6 wounds done. 28 points. You lose more by bringing Tzaangors then Rubrics. They are not chaff.
Some people use chaff and bubble wrap interchangeably. In TS Tzaangors are bubble wrap not chaff. Their main purpose being to provide a distance buffer between rubrics and incoming deepstrikers.
Keeping your back line from being easily infiltrated also allows you to focus on keeping your rubrics shooting instead of spreading them out to push the 9" bubble.
Even as bubble wrap they aren't very good as they can be shot down by small arms very easily and are relativity expensive. Guard are almost half their cost. Grots are 3 points.
Tzaangors are too expensive for that they need to be used in an offensive manner to keep your opponent on his back foot. Look how Eddie uses his Tzaangors he DSs them in and ties up two units,
Even as bubble wrap they aren't very good as they can be shot down by small arms very easily and are relativity expensive. Guard are almost half their cost. Grots are 3 points.
Tzaangors are too expensive for that they need to be used in an offensive manner to keep your opponent on his back foot. Look how Eddie uses his Tzaangors he DSs them in and ties up two units,
If you just expect them to die then, yes, use cultists like Eddie in the backfield. I much prefer to screen with Tzaangors as I move forward, because they CAN fight and for only 3 points more than a cultist I get T4 5++ S4 AP1.
Check the options for RM and SOT then check the options for CSM and Chaos Termies. Note the difference in loadout options for the latter nad the lack of difference in the former.
I don't know what this is referring to, could you explain?
He's talking about how CSM terminators can be equipped in a myriad of ways with many different weapons, which ignores that CSM termies are the exception to the rule in the terminator world.
Which doesn't refute me CSM Termies ARE the exception, SM get 3 different types; Assualt, Tartaros, and regular Termies, basic things like Weapons choice are very different for Termies compared to a Tac squad. Termies can take all Combi weapons ours can't the only thing they can take is inferno combi-bolter. SOT are LITERALLY two Rubrics smashed together with a power sword and a 2+ save. Same type of shots, same number of shots, same number of attacks, same number of wounds, almost the same armor save, and Power Sword attacks. They have access to a missile launcher, and die JUST AS FAST to things like OC plasma, they fill the same role.
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Even as bubble wrap they aren't very good as they can be shot down by small arms very easily and are relativity expensive. Guard are almost half their cost. Grots are 3 points.
Tzaangors are too expensive for that they need to be used in an offensive manner to keep your opponent on his back foot. Look how Eddie uses his Tzaangors he DSs them in and ties up two units,
If you just expect them to die then, yes, use cultists like Eddie in the backfield. I much prefer to screen with Tzaangors as I move forward, because they CAN fight and for only 3 points more than a cultist I get T4 5++ S4 AP1.
Except if you are just looking for a 9 in screen your better off with cultists, they are cheaper, and with Weaver of Fate have almost the same save, and you save yourself 90 points which nets you a unit of Tzaangors or 10 more Tzaangors added to a unit you already have.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: How should we decide who are TS then? Your method of anything that has the TS keyword on it? So A SM with the TS keyword is TS? How about a Grot? Eldar Guardian? Blood Claws? My method of thinking that if they were affected by the rubric THAT makes them TS.
Chosen as in leaders of Armies you know the people who used to be the only ones that had access to them, now Tzaangors have them? I thought Tzaangors were chaff? All of a sudden there super special? And you realize that is something they made up right? They could have just as easily said eh lets make a Psyker dread with the rules we already have and the model we already have, why not? Oh, cause it will hurt our birdman sales. It's funny because your arguing that you agree with me with the fluff, the fluff is Hordes of Tzaangors a few Rubrics and powerful Sorcs leading them.
What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying..
Addressing these three points in order:
A thousand son marine is either a sorcerer or a rubric yes. But it may not have a specific rubric (or even psyker) rule, if it doesn't make sense. For example, having rubric marines pilot a predator won't suddenly make the predator harder to kill, or more stable when moving. Helbrute is probably the same situation, though arguably it could be former psykers pilot them, and the negative effects of poor quality chaos helbrutes caused them to go insane and lose their ability to actively utilize their psychic powers. Both make a certain amount of sense.
This is the models rules thing at play again, even if they hadn't added gors you 99% weren't getting a special dreadnought with psychic powers, and even with them I still consider it possible, if very unlikely, they decide to splash some special rule in the helbrute.
You can still field an army of rubrics. It's an awful idea and you'll likely lose, but that's been true in every edition rubrics have existed in. An entire army of rubrics was always an awful idea and would cause you to lose. Even mostly rubrics would. Rubrics were a unit you took a couple of and moved on. This is in no way new. If anything, taking lots of rubrics is less punishing than it has been in previous editions.
Formosa wrote: Still unsure why there are no chaos cataphractii or tartoros termies, just the normal ones, never mind the god specific ones, just standards
I think it was a mistake to give different marks of terminator armour different rules. They should just be an aesthetic choice, like power armour marks. As for why chaos terminator models don't wear older types of armour, probably because the kit is damn old, and IIRC there were no cataphractii or tartaros terminators when it was designed. If they ever redo the kit, it might make more sense to make them cataphractii though.
Formosa wrote: Still unsure why there are no chaos cataphractii or tartoros termies, just the normal ones, never mind the god specific ones, just standards
I think it was a mistake to give different marks of terminator armour different rules. They should just be an aesthetic choice, like power armour marks. As for why chaos terminator models don't wear older types of armour, probably because the kit is damn old, and IIRC there were no cataphractii or tartaros terminators when it was designed. If they ever redo the kit, it might make more sense to make them cataphractii though.
Thats a good IRL answer to be sure, in fluff though, cant see why they havent ported them over, loyalists get them???
Formosa wrote: Still unsure why there are no chaos cataphractii or tartoros termies, just the normal ones, never mind the god specific ones, just standards
there are in a way though, the death guard terminators are all cataphracti, and the rubric termies are clearly tarantos. So I THIIINK GW might be trying to use the differant terminator marks to give each of the differant traitor legions it's own look. still, would be nice to see generic CSMs given some options. could even limit it to legions so Iron warriors have to take cataphracti, etc.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: How should we decide who are TS then? Your method of anything that has the TS keyword on it? So A SM with the TS keyword is TS? How about a Grot? Eldar Guardian? Blood Claws? My method of thinking that if they were affected by the rubric THAT makes them TS.
Chosen as in leaders of Armies you know the people who used to be the only ones that had access to them, now Tzaangors have them? I thought Tzaangors were chaff? All of a sudden there super special? And you realize that is something they made up right? They could have just as easily said eh lets make a Psyker dread with the rules we already have and the model we already have, why not? Oh, cause it will hurt our birdman sales. It's funny because your arguing that you agree with me with the fluff, the fluff is Hordes of Tzaangors a few Rubrics and powerful Sorcs leading them.
What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying..
Addressing these three points in order:
A thousand son marine is either a sorcerer or a rubric yes. But it may not have a specific rubric (or even psyker) rule, if it doesn't make sense. For example, having rubric marines pilot a predator won't suddenly make the predator harder to kill, or more stable when moving. Helbrute is probably the same situation, though arguably it could be former psykers pilot them, and the negative effects of poor quality chaos helbrutes caused them to go insane and lose their ability to actively utilize their psychic powers. Both make a certain amount of sense.
This is the models rules thing at play again, even if they hadn't added gors you 99% weren't getting a special dreadnought with psychic powers, and even with them I still consider it possible, if very unlikely, they decide to splash some special rule in the helbrute.
You can still field an army of rubrics. It's an awful idea and you'll likely lose, but that's been true in every edition rubrics have existed in. An entire army of rubrics was always an awful idea and would cause you to lose. Even mostly rubrics would. Rubrics were a unit you took a couple of and moved on. This is in no way new. If anything, taking lots of rubrics is less punishing than it has been in previous editions.
See that's my point right now I DO field almost an army of Rubrics and I win, not every game but I win. Against people who do not like to lose.
Yeah see, that's either skill difference, luck, or your opponent running a list you counter, because an all rubric list isn't particularly impressive (I'd honestly say it's hot garbage myself). You'll still be able to do that post codex more than likely.
SilverAlien wrote: Yeah see, that's either skill difference, luck, or your opponent running a list you counter, because an all rubric list isn't particularly impressive (I'd honestly say it's hot garbage myself). You'll still be able to do that post codex more than likely.
Almost, not all, still have other things, Cultists, Tzaangors, but 1106 points of my army right now is spend on Rubrics alone. (Sorry had to double check)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 01:47:19
SilverAlien wrote: Yeah see, that's either skill difference, luck, or your opponent running a list you counter, because an all rubric list isn't particularly impressive (I'd honestly say it's hot garbage myself). You'll still be able to do that post codex more than likely.
Almost, not all, still have other things, Cultists, Tzaangors, but 1106 points of my army right now is spend on Rubrics alone. (Sorry had to double check)
And I"m 15-3 with Thousand Sons. My army consists of:
Not particularly Thousand Son'ish if you ask me. It's why I boxed them up till the codex hits.... My Thousand Sons proper units didn't really do jack all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 01:49:10
SilverAlien wrote: Yeah see, that's either skill difference, luck, or your opponent running a list you counter, because an all rubric list isn't particularly impressive (I'd honestly say it's hot garbage myself). You'll still be able to do that post codex more than likely.
Almost, not all, still have other things, Cultists, Tzaangors, but 1106 points of my army right now is spend on Rubrics alone. (Sorry had to double check)
My point still stands, even for index tsons that's an exceptionally mediocre army so I wouldn't worry, if you can win with that you'll be fine moving forward.
Which doesn't refute me CSM Termies ARE the exception, SM get 3 different types; Assualt, Tartaros, and regular Termies, basic things like Weapons choice are very different for Termies compared to a Tac squad. Termies can take all Combi weapons ours can't the only thing they can take is inferno combi-bolter. SOT are LITERALLY two Rubrics smashed together with a power sword and a 2+ save. Same type of shots, same number of shots, same number of attacks, same number of wounds, almost the same armor save, and Power Sword attacks. They have access to a missile launcher, and die JUST AS FAST to things like OC plasma, they fill the same role.
We literally just got our first terminator kit. In the history of the game. To expect the same number of kits at Space Marines is a bit much being that we're a subset of a faction.
And they are double the shots and wounds. Not that it matters. Having their own deepstrike changes their role considerably. And aside from CSMSOT carry the most heavy fire power of just about any other terminator squad out there - two heavies in a 5 man w/ no move penalty, combi-bolters are all AP2, and a sorcerer.
In any case SM termies are static like SOT.
Terminators : storm bolter and pf or cf; one can take AC, Cyclone, or HF.
Assault Terminators : Either dual LC or TH/SS.
Cataphracti : storm bolter and pf; a HF option; and the ability to get CF or LC.
Tartaros : similar to Cataphracti, but with an option for a "plasma gun".
None of these units can slap a combi-melta/flamer/plasma in place of the combi-bolter like CSM. Or options for any standard power weapon.
Except if you are just looking for a 9 in screen your better off with cultists, they are cheaper, and with Weaver of Fate have almost the same save, and you save yourself 90 points which nets you a unit of Tzaangors or 10 more Tzaangors added to a unit you already have.
Why are you applying WoF to one, but not the other? "Almost as good" = half as good or one third if we're applying all the variables equally.
10 Tzaangors, 70 points
20 Cultists, 80 points
10 S4 power sword wounds kills 2.5 (18 points) Tzaangors and 5.5 cultists (22 points). This puts Tzaangors in risk of 1-2 from morale and the cultists with up to 6.
30 S4 AP0 wounds kills 7.5 Tzaangors and 16.6 cultists. The cultists will be completely gone. The tzaangors have a slim chance to stay.
The reason cultists are "good" in CSM lists is because of the stratagem, morale protection, and full reroll to hits in melee. We don't have any of those barring possibly the stratagem.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/22 02:36:21
Which doesn't refute me CSM Termies ARE the exception, SM get 3 different types; Assualt, Tartaros, and regular Termies, basic things like Weapons choice are very different for Termies compared to a Tac squad. Termies can take all Combi weapons ours can't the only thing they can take is inferno combi-bolter. SOT are LITERALLY two Rubrics smashed together with a power sword and a 2+ save. Same type of shots, same number of shots, same number of attacks, same number of wounds, almost the same armor save, and Power Sword attacks. They have access to a missile launcher, and die JUST AS FAST to things like OC plasma, they fill the same role.
We literally just got our first terminator kit. In the history of the game. To expect the same number of kits at Space Marines is a bit much being that we're a subset of a faction.
1 just 1 not 5 not 10 not even 2, 1, that was what I was expecting, not Termies either or anything crazy I figured they would do some rehash shenanigans but not a single Rubric variant unit?
Daedalus81 wrote: And they are double the shots and wounds. Not that it matters. Having their own deepstrike changes their role considerably. And aside from CSMSOT carry the most heavy fire power of just about any other terminator squad out there - two heavies in a 5 man w/ no move penalty, combi-bolters are all AP2, and a sorcerer.
Yes, except when the Codex Drops we know Rubrics will have the same ability.
Terminators : storm bolter and pf or cf; one can take AC, Cyclone, or HF.
Assault Terminators : Either dual LC or TH/SS.
Cataphracti : storm bolter and pf; a HF option; and the ability to get CF or LC.
Tartaros : similar to Cataphracti, but with an option for a "plasma gun".
None of these units can slap a combi-melta/flamer/plasma in place of the combi-bolter like CSM. Or options for any standard power weapon.
LC do not do the same job as TH/SS or CF there is variety its just all CC oriented, where as I have 1 option Inferno combi-bolters and Power Swords.
Except if you are just looking for a 9 in screen your better off with cultists, they are cheaper, and with Weaver of Fate have almost the same save, and you save yourself 90 points which nets you a unit of Tzaangors or 10 more Tzaangors added to a unit you already have.
Why are you applying WoF to one, but not the other? "Almost as good" = half as good or one third if we're applying all the variables equally.
10 Tzaangors, 70 points
20 Cultists, 80 points
10 S4 power sword wounds kills 2.5 (18 points) Tzaangors and 5.5 cultists (22 points). This puts Tzaangors in risk of 1-2 from morale and the cultists with up to 6.
30 S4 AP0 wounds kills 7.5 Tzaangors and 16.6 cultists. The cultists will be completely gone. The tzaangors have a slim chance to stay.
The reason cultists are "good" in CSM lists is because of the stratagem, morale protection, and full reroll to hits in melee. We don't have any of those barring possibly the stratagem.
If you apply to both you get 21 poitns lost for every 20 of cultists, except 20 cultists can tarpit a Dred for almost the entire game, or be forced to fall back, you dont want Tzaangors in that situation because he will cut through them in 3 turns tops.
We will have to disagree on this I think Tzaangors are and offensive weapon and you think they are wrap.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/01/22 04:02:35
I wonder why.
Also knowledge is power. A 
)
I literally just showcased everyone irrefutable evidence that you've not only been contradicting yourself incessantly, you also have no legs to stand on when it comes to the premise of this very thread. Technically, I guess I didn't "attack" your argument. I destroyed it. I killed it so hard that you're now falling on the "refrain from posting" tactic when you yourself have been notably snarky. Self contradiction and hypocrisy goes hand in hand with making declarative statements in a factual tone when tangible evidence either suggests otherwise or is unavailable.
