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What I dont understand is the disparty in prices just between the UK and Aus.

A plastic Contemptor dread on the UK store is $35 pounds($61.81AUD)

On the AUS store that same kit is $100 ($56.62 pounds).

Thats a fairly drastic price diffrence.

Now that is a strange one. i think Gw just doesn't like you guys.

i know its been like this for a while and i believe it was when the kangaroo bucks were worth quite more but as it changed gw kept the price or is adjusting them slower for some reason.

Ha with an over 40% price hike I am inclined to agree with you.

But it makes it prohibitively expensive.

I would imagine that if the price point was at comparable to that of the UK or US stores they would sell more in AUS.
Mind you Im not sure how large of a market Australia to them so it may simply be a case of not caring about us at all lol.

 Klayhero wrote:
What I dont understand is the disparty in prices just between the UK and Aus.

Probably something to do with Australia's entire import situation. You know, the ones that make you spend $120 AU for a video game? This isn't just a GW problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Tax. It seems to boil down to that most companies don't really want to do business on the other side of the globe unless they can charge them out the yin-yang. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume GW keeps a distribution center somewhere in that area rather than ship halfway around the world (Sydney, given how they're looking for an accounts officer in that city) every time they get an order. So they have to deal with import taxes on shipments over $1000 AU as well as distribute across a big country*, which bulks up the cost of doing business. This doesn't account for the entire cost increase (as the wikipedia article states), but it accounts for some of it. The rest of it is that you folks - because of this very problem - are used to paying more for basically everything, therefore continue to swallow high prices**.

*same as with Canada, but in Canada we're mostly along the US border, where Australians are mostly along the coasts of a good sized continent.
**equally true in Canada, which again, has most of the population close to the US border, but we still pay a lot more for stuff like Cars and appliances, JUST BECAUSE Canadians are willing to pay more.

Once upon a time the £UK was worth three times the AUD$. When that stopped being the case, GW never really updated.

Then when AoS came out each release was more expensive than the last (a way of "not doing price increases" by just increasing products rather than a whole product line), and we bore the brunt of that (along with NZ, Japan and a few other places in similar situations) because our prices are so much more than the US and UK.

It's not getting any better, and it's why finding retailers with deep discounts and, yes, even 'alternate methods', have become more popular/sought after.

 Klayhero wrote:
What I dont understand is the disparty in prices just between the UK and Aus.

Go price Flames of War in NZ, US and the UK, and let us know if they're the same in constant USD or GBP.

And this is relevant how, DD?

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm not at all convinced that people spend the most in the first year.

See, when I started I were just a nipper. I simply didn't have the cash to do stuff properly. So armies were cobbled together from well-meaning presents, and the odd bit of pocket money saving.

Now? Well, I'm doing me sums and I reckon I can afford to drop £200 on a Custards army this weekend. And I'll definitely be having a slice of whatever Morathi's army turns out to be, because Morathi.

That's money I could only dream of spending all those years ago, even adjusting for GW's own inflation.

And that's not accounting for anything else that might be in the pipeline. The year is barely started, and I'm all excite for Custards, Morathi and Undead stuff. Perhaps I'm the odd one out, but I can only speak from my own experience.

Perfectly well explained.

But although people like yourself are dropping money GWs way, they are pricing out the current nippers. In 10 years, there won't be the influx of people like yourself flinging them money. GW seriously need to think a little bit more long term. Are the next generations of nippers spending pocket money with GW anymore?

I don’t know that that’s right.

What I found when I last worked for GW (2009/2010, so can’t claim to be completely up to date, natch), parents were happy to throw money at the Hobby, because, and I quote, ’it’s not another bloody XBox’

Now of course that’s not gonna be universal, but it was a big slice of my weekly sales. That we effectively ran a Sunday youth club as well added to that appeal. Nerdy kids and ‘normal’ kids socialising.

What I saw was the pocket money being spent on paints and brushes. But Mum and Dad were happy to buy the kits for them, because they saw the educational value of the Hobby. And here’s where you can tell I’m a genuine ex-till Monkey... the Hobby is educational. It helps to develop patience, strategic thinking, mental arithmetic, reading comprehension and of course social skills. Heck, the non-dice rolling side also helps with artistic expression and hand/eye coordination.

Even better for my target was the number of families who’d Hobby together.

So based on my anecdotes, I’m not seeing kids being priced out. But it is only an anecdote. And interestingly, not an actual defence of GW’s prices.

that most customers are young guys who buy a lot in the first year or two, and them taper down dramatically, to the point that GW simply doesn't care if they stay on or not, as long as there is a new guy coming in buying a new army, and all the stuff that comes with it.

I'm not sure if that is still the case. The rise in geek culture over the last few years that allows grown men to own this stuff now allows the end-30s to come back and share the hobby with their kids. And they do spend a lot. Those are the guys who buy titan maniples and they're more common than one would think. In my town the GW store is always filled with college students who usually go on massive spending sprees once they land their first well paid job, and most of them come back at some point even if they gravitate to other systems after a while.
I think GW needs to keep these guys as well, they've got the money and a kept customer is tons better (i.e. cheaper for the company) than a newly recruited one.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm not at all convinced that people spend the most in the first year.

See, when I started I were just a nipper. I simply didn't have the cash to do stuff properly. So armies were cobbled together from well-meaning presents, and the odd bit of pocket money saving.

Now? Well, I'm doing me sums and I reckon I can afford to drop £200 on a Custards army this weekend. And I'll definitely be having a slice of whatever Morathi's army turns out to be, because Morathi.

That's money I could only dream of spending all those years ago, even adjusting for GW's own inflation.

And that's not accounting for anything else that might be in the pipeline. The year is barely started, and I'm all excite for Custards, Morathi and Undead stuff. Perhaps I'm the odd one out, but I can only speak from my own experience.

Perfectly well explained.

But although people like yourself are dropping money GWs way, they are pricing out the current nippers. In 10 years, there won't be the influx of people like yourself flinging them money. GW seriously need to think a little bit more long term. Are the next generations of nippers spending pocket money with GW anymore?

Had a twelve year old kid come into the club recently with his mom,he was very interested in 40k. We talked for a long while and we showed him stuff. I then warned his mom that this stuff could get very expensive very fast. She shrugged and said that all hobbies are expensive and that he had like eight years worth of LEGO purchases and presents they could sell to finance it to begin with. And she was happy it was a varied hobby that also had a lot of social interaction. I think parents are used to kids toys and hobbies being very expensive. Kids hobbies aren’t just pocket money affairs, parents take an interest and encourage the ones they like, with both participation and money. And as a father of a three year old I can certainly vouch for LEGO easily getting up there with GW in terms of spending...

GW prices things the way they do because while plastic may not cost much, brick and mortar stores, development, design, and employees costs money. You're not paying for the plastic, you're paying for the shop to exist. Remember, Mantic and Wyrd don't run hundreds of expensive brick and mortar stores where you can play their games. Additionally, GW brick and mortar shops can't sell Magic cards, which is what many LFGSs actually survive on.

I did some calculations using CPI a while ago, and the price increases, while significant, aren't as bad as they would seem at a glance. The UK CPI is up 117% since 1990 (though this doesn't say anything about disposable income), so it's only natural you'd see a doubling of prices (at least). Automisation can only do so much, and you can't staff GWs with robots (however much it might seem they have). GW's costs aren't manufacturing, they're blackshirts/redshirts and assorted others, which they have many, many, many more of these days.Now, there's much less turnover of certain units, such as Blood Dragon Knights, HQs etc., which means they need to charge more, as it's not the actual plastic you're paying for.

GW's profits haven't been very high for the past 10-12 years (not counting the last 18 month's uptick), and possibly negative if you only counted toy soldiers, with royalties from Dawn of War etc. covering the shortfall. Don't get me wrong, I wish GW lowered their prices, but they have a duty to their shareholders, and that is to pay dividends, and their workers, which is to run a sustainable model which will keep them employed. I honestly think they've lost more players due to downright shoddy rules during 6th and 7th than they have to expensive models, which I think 8th edition is showing. If they lowered their prices, would be spend more or less on GW? I'm not sure. Would my plastic crack pile of shame grow? Possibly, but GW's margins would be lower, so even if they shifted more product, they might not be as profitable.

@ChazSexington.
If you are saying that rather than focus on quality game play like game companies do, to grow and keep a customer base.
GW spends a small fortune (appx 56% of gross profit,) on a chain of B&M shops for recruitment.
(Which has been proven to be the least cost effective method of recruitment , post internet age.)

And that the reason GW charge so much is because they have an inefficient business model, then I agree.

I can understand those benefiting from a good B&M store supporting it.

But expecting ALL GW customers to pay for the few that use B&M stores?Nah, its just seems wrong to me...

That's still an argument I find it hard to get my head round.

Any and all business overheads for any business that wants to be successful eventually end up being paid for by the end consumer.

You say it's 'proven' to be the least cost effective. Got a link to that proof, as I'm interested in seeing if it deals specifically with GW's market, or something different.

 Mymearan wrote:

Had a twelve year old kid come into the club recently with his mom,he was very interested in 40k. We talked for a long while and we showed him stuff. I then warned his mom that this stuff could get very expensive very fast. She shrugged and said that all hobbies are expensive and that he had like eight years worth of LEGO purchases and presents they could sell to finance it to begin with. And she was happy it was a varied hobby that also had a lot of social interaction. I think parents are used to kids toys and hobbies being very expensive. Kids hobbies aren’t just pocket money affairs, parents take an interest and encourage the ones they like, with both participation and money. And as a father of a three year old I can certainly vouch for LEGO easily getting up there with GW in terms of spending...

Work partner's kid has hobby that costs 5k a year. That's a lot of miniatures...

Yeah models are out of pocket money reach generally. But not out of hobby budget neccessarily.

Lanrak wrote:
@ChazSexington.
If you are saying that rather than focus on quality game play like game companies do, to grow and keep a customer base.
GW spends a small fortune (appx 56% of gross profit,) on a chain of B&M shops for recruitment.
(Which has been proven to be the least cost effective method of recruitment , post internet age.)

And that the reason GW charge so much is because they have an inefficient business model, then I agree.

I can understand those benefiting from a good B&M store supporting it.

But expecting ALL GW customers to pay for the few that use B&M stores?Nah, its just seems wrong to me...

It might be inefficient at generating max profit in the short term, but this method has solidified their hold on the market, which is good for long term growth.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That's still an argument I find it hard to get my head round.

Any and all business overheads for any business that wants to be successful eventually end up being paid for by the end consumer.

You say it's 'proven' to be the least cost effective. Got a link to that proof, as I'm interested in seeing if it deals specifically with GW's market, or something different.

Fair point, but should we be expected to fund a terrible idea, the B6M chain, via higher price points ? Especially as many of us get no benefit from them, apart from paints I don't think I've purchased anything from my local GW since the last Space Hulk redo

I also think GW kind of ignored the Internet for far too long, the largest two UK 40k Battle channels have 100k subs between them, and whilst you obviously cant exactly translate subs into sales its a lot of eyeballs at I'd imagine way lower cost than a shop

I'm also yet to see any evidence that it's a 'terrible idea'.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm also yet to see any evidence that it's a 'terrible idea'.

terrible might be over-egging due to the PTSD flashes I have regarding my local GW, but the financials suggest its not too efficient moneywise but GW can (and will) do as it please and the only real option is to buy or not buy and at the moment I'm fairly in the not group

Being expensive isn't the same as being inefficient or undesirable though.

GW are the major gaming presence on the UK high street (well....typically just off said High Street!). If someone walks into a GW store curious about the Hobby, it's GW solely benefitting.

If someone wandered into say, Darksphere (using that because it's local), then you've got dozens of different lines all demanding your attention and hoping for your money.

If GW closed all their shops, that's gonna affect their immediate sales volumes, and severely affect their recruitment.

But massively cut their overhead to the point where it's almost cost neutral. (If you want citations check any financial report for pretty much any year that's easily available.)

It's a moot point, as they're now so far down the path of their own chain it's totally infeasible for them to change direction, but it is totally possible they could have been just as successful as they are now with much lower fixed and variable costs if they just stuck to making stuff and selling stuff to other retailers at wholesale.

Heck, I'd even go as far as to say one could potentially make a case they may have done better because operating in an environment where they're in direct shelf competition with other companies may have increased focus on making a competitively priced and well received product at management level whereas having a certain percentage of your customers entirely within your eco system paying full retail isn't going to motivate you to really push yourself to the utmost.

It’s not about the profit generated, but the hype.

For a crude and by no means accurate analogy, but the the best I can think of after three pints (day off tomorrow, so natch I’m in the pub).....

You’ve made a movie. You’ve spent a good amount of money just getting it made. You’re pretty sure you’ve made a decent movie that people enjoy.

But few people have heard of your source material. It may be a niche but well respected in its own circle novel, or something completely original.

Do you....

A) Launch a hype campaign, paying additional money to promote your film on tv, radio, trailers and internet, hoping that additizonal cost will be covered by the increased sales.

B) save that money, hoping that pure word of mouth will do the work.

Now there’s no right or wrong answer to that particular analogy. But in reality, it’s often said the budget of any given blockbuster will be matched by the spend on advertising. Whilst it may mean even a £2,000,000 box office take is still breaking even, it’s the residuals that your profit comes in. Toys. Licensing. Home Media, Streaming, Broadcast rights.

GW is doing their own peculiar take on that. See, with their own stores they not only help mitigate shelf competition, but can cross promote their own goodies, employing fans to sell it to other Nerds.

Yes, it’s an expensive approach, no questioning that, and nor have I.

But, you have to look at the long game. With that level of control over NooBs, you can generate further entry sales. One kid stumbles in, is blown away, and their parents drop money. That kid goes back to their fellow nerds, and ropes them in. And because you’ve got the store squarely in your own pocket, with no competition within said store, all those additional sales are yours and yours alone. A well run store brings in new blood on a weekly basis, and makes it harder for people to lapse their hobby. Because as long as you’re there on the high street, you’re visible.

I myself have re-recruited a great many Hobbyists that dropped out years before (You Can’t Compete With Hormones). They’ll be tottering about town, remember their yoof, and wander on in. That’s a surprisingly easy sale, even if it’s just a single White Dwarf.

You can’t underestimate the importance of that high street presence. In itself it may never be profitable, but my word does it drive your sales. Take it away, and how do you recruit new customers? Without showing them how it all works, how to build, paint, model and play, how do you keep the sales hype going?

The stores are the lifeblood of GW, and the reason they’re the dominant force in the market (that survey thing? ICV2 or whatevs doesn’t include GW’s own sales data, so isn’t at all reliable). Because they’re there. They’re the face of the wider Wargaming Hobby. Friendly, knowledgable sales staff recruited from the Hobbyist ranks. Decent locations. Clean, well planned stores.

They know what they’re doing far better than anyone else.

As for ‘competitvely priced’? I’d genuinely argue that with GW’s present position, prices cuts could be truly catastrophic for the wider industry. I mean, PP and FFG have a fraction of the overheads of GW, and for what you’re getting aren’t as far off GW’s as one might expect. For any other company who’s sole strategy is ‘be cheaper than GW’, that could easily mean bankruptcy.

GW Stores. Doesn’t matter if you use them. Doesn’t matter if you think they’re a particularly good idea. They’re here to stay, and not because they’re some kind of half-baked vanity project.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, consider where I started - Hero Quest.

If there wasn’t WD, and the Edinburgh Store, I wouldn’t be typing this right now, because I’d never have got properly started. Those now ancient WD’s would never have been thoroughly pawed over and doodled on.

And GW as a company would be missing several tens of thousands of pounds over the past nearly 30 years.

All because of the commonly alleged ‘millstone round their neck’.

The stores work guys. They do their job.

I don't have the energy right now to tackle everything I disagree with or is simply wrong in that essay, but I'm concerned a lack of response might be interpreted as some sort of concession or agreement.

Also, written in the pub? That length of post presumably on a phone? Good lord.

Anecdotal, but not irrelevant ...

I restarted gaming through a GW store. So did my son. So did 90% of the gamers I know. I used to travel for work, and knew that, with a climbing sack and an army case in the boot, I could find a good evening's entertainment in most places. So, while undoubtedly costly, the B&M stores certainly made it much easier for me to game - and to spend a fair amount of money over an extended period of time.

Yes it's still too expensive, but I also have several gams I've bought & never played because it requires at least some effort to find ANY player locally.

Firstly, that's might be typical for the U.K. where store density is high, but it really doesn't work like anywhere else in the world for GW, and secondly, if GW stores didn't exist, there'd likely be independents fulfilling the same need for all those other games you struggle to find opponents for as well as GW.

But this is drifting away from "price" and more into "what GW could have done differently" so I'm going to bow out and try and let the thread drift back on topic.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
...

GW Stores. Doesn’t matter if you use them. Doesn’t matter if you think they’re a particularly good idea. They’re here to stay, and not because they’re some kind of half-baked vanity project.


...

The stores work guys. They do their job.

I'd hazard a guess that this only rings true in the UK. It's certainly not been my experience here in the US - to the point that "they're here to stay" is a laughable sentiment.

There used to be two GW stores in my county. Both closed years ago and haven't returned. The next closest are 1 hour north and south, respectively. Both of those don't open until noon and close up by 8pm, and are closed completely Monday and Tuesday. Moreover, they're not in what you would call "high street" by any stretch of the imagination. Now, I don't know their communities because going out there is a total hassle, but I can't imagine that they have an enormous amount of foot traffic considering those conditions.

Compare that to the biggest LGS down the road from me (~10min drive). They are open from 11am to midnight every day of the week, and it is almost always packed full. Most importantly (AFAIK), they have a healthy AoS and WH40k community with consistent stock of new items on the shelves. It's not really any surprise then that they (along with the other nearby LGSs, of which there are ~10 in the area) drove the actual GW shops out of business within a relatively short span of time.

Basically my point is many places in the US really haven't worked out for the GW Shop model, and out here they'd probably do a lot better just promoting and distributing through the local stores like WotC does with MTG or like FFG does with X-Wing.

You say laughable, but I’ve only provided personal anecdotes.

As for the US? I noted with interest that despite their lack of density, US GW stores took more money (not allowing for currency conversion) than the UK.

But even allowing for currency conversion, that suggests that head for head, they’re even more successful than their UK counterparts.

That your local scene favours GW Games is a very different subject, given the typical disdain the Intartubes claims to hold GW in.

As for the US? I noted with interest that despite their lack of density, US GW stores took more money (not allowing for currency conversion) than the UK.

Ah, I see the critical problem with much of your analysis. You think 13m is less than 10.5m!

Head for head.

Per Capita.

If I’ve got 20 shops in country A, and they collectively rake in £1,000,000

But I’ve alsp got 40 shops in country B, and they collectively rake in £1,500,00.....

Which, per capita is working out better for me?

I mean, I know I’m pissing on your chips here, and we can prove anything with ‘mere facts’, but please. Don’t misrepresent what I’ve said.

So, who's got the larger population? What's the average take of GW US per capita with a population of 300+ million, or the U.K, with 60?

You know per capita means per person. Right?



You mean per store, but are trying to sound clever.

Yes, per store, the US stores are generating a higher mean average in revenue, but they're in a country with 6 times (give or take) the population. Adjust for that per capita and you'll have a representative figure to compare the two.

For GW NA to match GW UK per capita they'd need to be turning over somewhere in the region of 78m in the same period, not 10.5m.

Per capita is not enough. You need the people within so many kilometres from the store. The population density matters. You simply can't cover the same number of people in the US with the same number of stores as in the UK.

Per store is far more reliable of an indicator.