Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

stratigo wrote:
The vigilant is a REALLY good anti custodes platform, but really wants to have access to traits and artifacts and strategums to make it work, and I figure it'll be the same for most knights.

I thought this originally too but a little more thought seems to make it not so bad. You have Fly on your Bikes and it doesn't, so you should be able to use terrain to get yourself within a charging distance. Once there, simply charge first with your Dawneagle Captain. With the 3++ relic he should survive with a little less than half HP. Then your squishier, normal Jetbikes can charge it with impunity.

Since the Valiant costs about 600 fully kitted out, that means a Custodes approximate would be about 5 Bikers and the Captain. All together that's about 18 wounds, plus an additional 3-4 from the Hurricane Bolters pre-charge. The Valiant should only have about 6-7 wounds left when it wants to retaliate.

Alternatively, just bring the thing down with anti-tank allies and only finish it off with a Bike charge as necessary.

Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

 Primark G wrote:
Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

Valiant*, but that's why I math'd it's damage! It'll do about 4.5 wounds to a Jetbike Captain with the 3++ on average. Add in Victor of the Blood Games or FNP if you made him your Warlord and it becomes quite survivable.

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

Valiant*, but that's why I math'd it's damage! It'll do about 4.5 wounds to a Jetbike Captain with the 3++ on average. Add in Victor of the Blood Games or FNP if you made him your Warlord and it becomes quite survivable.

It's 4.7 wounds and that is only from the big flamer (and not even the relic one, god forbid), if any other of it's 7 guns does any damage you could lose the Captain on the charge. If a shield breaker hits then it's goodbye Captain.

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

Valiant*, but that's why I math'd it's damage! It'll do about 4.5 wounds to a Jetbike Captain with the 3++ on average. Add in Victor of the Blood Games or FNP if you made him your Warlord and it becomes quite survivable.

Oh I didn't catch that and it's great news!!! Thanks for doing the math. /thumbsup

Have to try and charge out of LoS if possible. My Shield-Cpt has come out without taking one wound versus a SS when it was shooting it full BS so it is possible.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

Valiant*, but that's why I math'd it's damage! It'll do about 4.5 wounds to a Jetbike Captain with the 3++ on average. Add in Victor of the Blood Games or FNP if you made him your Warlord and it becomes quite survivable.

It's 4.7 wounds and that is only from the big flamer (and not even the relic one, god forbid), if any other of it's 7 guns does any damage you could lose the Captain on the charge. If a shield breaker hits then it's goodbye Captain.

Assuming the Valiant has 3 Siegebreakers and the Harpoon, it is statistically only likely to do 1 or less wounds with all of them combined (I think the Harpoon alone has a 62% chance of doing nothing or something like that). The flamer is the only Overwatch of note.

The Relic Flamer just gives it re-rolls, right? If so, a 3++ Captain SHOULD still survive albeit with 1HP. That's WITHOUT Victor of the Blood Games re-rolling a failed Invuln or the 5+++ Warlord Trait. Even without them, he's more likely to make it in and survive than not with no loss of effectiveness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

Valiant*, but that's why I math'd it's damage! It'll do about 4.5 wounds to a Jetbike Captain with the 3++ on average. Add in Victor of the Blood Games or FNP if you made him your Warlord and it becomes quite survivable.

Oh I didn't catch that and it's great news!!! Thanks for doing the math. /thumbsup

Have to try and charge out of LoS if possible. My Shield-Cpt has come out without taking one wound versus a SS when it was shooting it full BS so it is possible.

Nice! Yeah, IF terrain allows it you can charge him with no Overwatch. All the better in that case.

Audustum wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

Valiant*, but that's why I math'd it's damage! It'll do about 4.5 wounds to a Jetbike Captain with the 3++ on average. Add in Victor of the Blood Games or FNP if you made him your Warlord and it becomes quite survivable.

It's 4.7 wounds and that is only from the big flamer (and not even the relic one, god forbid), if any other of it's 7 guns does any damage you could lose the Captain on the charge. If a shield breaker hits then it's goodbye Captain.

Assuming the Valiant has 3 Siegebreakers and the Harpoon, it is statistically only likely to do 1 or less wounds with all of them combined (I think the Harpoon alone has a 62% chance of doing nothing or something like that). The flamer is the only Overwatch of note.

The Relic Flamer just gives it re-rolls, right? If so, a 3++ Captain SHOULD still survive albeit with 1HP. That's WITHOUT Victor of the Blood Games re-rolling a failed Invuln or the 5+++ Warlord Trait. Even without them, he's more likely to make it in and survive than not with no loss of effectiveness.

A base Valiant will do about 6.5W to a Captain in Overwatch with all it's weapons, without the use of relics, House Tactics or Stratagems.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

Valiant*, but that's why I math'd it's damage! It'll do about 4.5 wounds to a Jetbike Captain with the 3++ on average. Add in Victor of the Blood Games or FNP if you made him your Warlord and it becomes quite survivable.

It's 4.7 wounds and that is only from the big flamer (and not even the relic one, god forbid), if any other of it's 7 guns does any damage you could lose the Captain on the charge. If a shield breaker hits then it's goodbye Captain.

Assuming the Valiant has 3 Siegebreakers and the Harpoon, it is statistically only likely to do 1 or less wounds with all of them combined (I think the Harpoon alone has a 62% chance of doing nothing or something like that). The flamer is the only Overwatch of note.

The Relic Flamer just gives it re-rolls, right? If so, a 3++ Captain SHOULD still survive albeit with 1HP. That's WITHOUT Victor of the Blood Games re-rolling a failed Invuln or the 5+++ Warlord Trait. Even without them, he's more likely to make it in and survive than not with no loss of effectiveness.

A base Valiant will do about 6.5W to a Captain in Overwatch with all it's weapons, without the use of relics, House Tactics or Stratagems.

But that's not that accurate, is it? Because one of those weapons is the HARPOON OF DOOM. Which is very likely to whiff, but if it hits and you fail your save, you just die.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Is going to be tough charging Castellans with the flamer weapon.

Valiant*, but that's why I math'd it's damage! It'll do about 4.5 wounds to a Jetbike Captain with the 3++ on average. Add in Victor of the Blood Games or FNP if you made him your Warlord and it becomes quite survivable.

It's 4.7 wounds and that is only from the big flamer (and not even the relic one, god forbid), if any other of it's 7 guns does any damage you could lose the Captain on the charge. If a shield breaker hits then it's goodbye Captain.

Assuming the Valiant has 3 Siegebreakers and the Harpoon, it is statistically only likely to do 1 or less wounds with all of them combined (I think the Harpoon alone has a 62% chance of doing nothing or something like that). The flamer is the only Overwatch of note.

The Relic Flamer just gives it re-rolls, right? If so, a 3++ Captain SHOULD still survive albeit with 1HP. That's WITHOUT Victor of the Blood Games re-rolling a failed Invuln or the 5+++ Warlord Trait. Even without them, he's more likely to make it in and survive than not with no loss of effectiveness.

A base Valiant will do about 6.5W to a Captain in Overwatch with all it's weapons, without the use of relics, House Tactics or Stratagems.

But that's not that accurate, is it? Because one of those weapons is the HARPOON OF DOOM. Which is very likely to whiff, but if it hits and you fail your save, you just die.

Right, it gets swingy here because the Harpoon is SUCH an all or nothing weapon. I was actually wrong on it's probably to hurt you too. I just checked again and the Harpoon has a 95% chance of doing 0 damage to a Captain with 3++ on Overwatch. It has a 5% chance of doing 10+1D3 Mortal Wounds.

So I would say it's largely safe to discount it if you're playing to averages and probabilities. Each Siegebreaker turret also has a 86% chance to deal 0 damage.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But that's not that accurate, is it? Because one of those weapons is the HARPOON OF DOOM. Which is very likely to whiff, but if it hits and you fail your save, you just die.

That's the mean average of Damage taken by your Captain (which is actually 8.5W because I forgot to count the mortal wounds), yes 95% of the time you'll only take an average of 6W.

Is that with rerolling a failed save and FNP?

 Primark G wrote:
Is that with rerolling a failed save and FNP?

That's on a Jetbike Captain with just a 3++

For the FW options:
Caladius does 4 wounds from accelerator cannon+1.1 from bolt cannon (against a 5++)
Telemon does 2.8 from the Las storm, 3.3 from the accelerator culverin, 0.7 from bolt launcher,1.6 per plasma ejector and 8.1 damage in melee
Achillus does 1.7 from dreadspear+0.56 from the lastrum, 8.3 in melee assuming 4.5 damage avg (5.6 minimum, maybe a mortal wound)

For reference, a hurricane bolter does 0.56 wounds at rapid-fire, an axe or spear does 0.28.

I had my friend do math.

Charging a Valiant has a 32.41918716% chance of death without VotBG and Superior Creation.

That drops to 15.17445933% if you have Superior Creation.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I had my friend do math.

Charging a Valiant has a 32.41918716% chance of death without VotBG and Superior Creation.

That drops to 15.17445933% if you have Superior Creation.

Could I see his working out please?

I can ask, but I think he may have just brute forced it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I can ask, but I think he may have just brute forced it.

Well brute forcing it would involve calculating every possible outcome that could have caused a Death to the Captain, which would involve a disgustingly large probability tree due to how many guns the Client has and the number of random variables involved. If he did do that then your mate is more patient than I.

He could have Monte Carlo'd it. Just do a couple million runs and you'll get a very close answer. Should take a couple of seconds or so.

Anyone mind taking a look at this?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=758387&viewResults=true

With effectively 2 re-rolls for a 3++ and a 5+++ it’s the best we’ve got, if you decide you need to kill it. But you’ll need to kill it that turn, because otherwise it’s going to back right out of combat and blast you again on it’s turn.

so i have a question a little off topic of what you guys are talking about

why pick superior creation over radiant mantle? i have play tested both and it seems radiant mantle is the better pick. better to stop the hit from ever landing then trying to live through the damage.

also with a vexilla it stacks to -2 to hit. so i can have him stand right our front and really not worry about getting shot.

so tell me, why pick superior creation? is it really better?

Spartan117xyz wrote:
so i have a question a little off topic of what you guys are talking about

why pick superior creation over radiant mantle? i have play tested both and it seems radiant mantle is the better pick. better to stop the hit from ever landing then trying to live through the damage.

also with a vexilla it stacks to -2 to hit. so i can have him stand right our front and really not worry about getting shot.

so tell me, why pick superior creation? is it really better?

Do the math and you will see ^^
Yes Superior creation is often better. Its a 33% reduction in damage taken (on average) regardless of what it is that is hitting you.
Radiant mantle is just as good if your going from 4+ to 5+ to hit (33% reduction in number of hits), better when the to hit is worse then that and worse if its better.
Most dangerous things tend to hit on 2's (for melee) or 3's where the -1 to hit is statistically worse.

Plus Radiant Mantle does nothing against Mortal Wounds.

Aye, superior creation is better against:
- BS2/3+
- auto hit weapons
- Darkreapers
- Mortal wounds
Etc.

Where Radiant Mantle will.shinr is if you're trying to duel Captain Slamguinus's, Thunderstrike Gauntlet Knights and the like (since they'll be forced to -2) or if you're trying to help neutralize re-rolls.

Audustum wrote:
Where Radiant Mantle will.shinr is if you're trying to duel Captain Slamguinus's, Thunderstrike Gauntlet Knights and the like (since they'll be forced to -2) or if you're trying to help neutralize re-rolls.

But Superior Creation will help you survive the death grip.

Audustum wrote:
Where Radiant Mantle will.shinr is if you're trying to duel Captain Slamguinus's, Thunderstrike Gauntlet Knights and the like (since they'll be forced to -2) or if you're trying to help neutralize re-rolls.

Thunderhammer captain hits on 3's. taking it to 4's is less good then ignoring wounds on a 5+.
Against Thunderstrike Gauntlet Knights (hitting on 4's. becoming 5's) its in theory equal. In practice Mantle here purely because 1 hit can't kill a bike captain from full wounds and 2 hits is to many wounds that your not going to save enough anyway.

-1 to hit sounds good in theory but if the opponent sprays you with lots of shots it doesn't really matter.

 Primark G wrote:
-1 to hit sounds good in theory but if the opponent sprays you with lots of shots it doesn't really matter.

Ofc it still matters. You will suffer less hits then you would otherwise.
Even if it is still enough to kill you it requires more shots then it would have taken without the -1 to hit.

 Ordana wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Where Radiant Mantle will.shinr is if you're trying to duel Captain Slamguinus's, Thunderstrike Gauntlet Knights and the like (since they'll be forced to -2) or if you're trying to help neutralize re-rolls.

Thunderhammer captain hits on 3's. taking it to 4's is less good then ignoring wounds on a 5+.
Against Thunderstrike Gauntlet Knights (hitting on 4's. becoming 5's) its in theory equal. In practice Mantle here purely because 1 hit can't kill a bike captain from full wounds and 2 hits is to many wounds that your not going to save enough anyway.

Just a heads up, certain knights with a relic hit with the thunderstrike on a 2+. So with the mantle, you make it a 3+. And if he hits, he will spend 1 cp and kill the shield captain.

Skhmt wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Where Radiant Mantle will.shinr is if you're trying to duel Captain Slamguinus's, Thunderstrike Gauntlet Knights and the like (since they'll be forced to -2) or if you're trying to help neutralize re-rolls.

Thunderhammer captain hits on 3's. taking it to 4's is less good then ignoring wounds on a 5+.
Against Thunderstrike Gauntlet Knights (hitting on 4's. becoming 5's) its in theory equal. In practice Mantle here purely because 1 hit can't kill a bike captain from full wounds and 2 hits is to many wounds that your not going to save enough anyway.

Just a heads up, certain knights with a relic hit with the thunderstrike on a 2+. So with the mantle, you make it a 3+. And if he hits, he will spend 1 cp and kill the shield captain.

You don't even need a Relic, actually.

House Mortan Gallants hit on a 2+ anyway.