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2019/01/28 11:08:59
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
nordsturmking wrote: I just realized how much better a Caladius grav tank is when compared to 4 Sagittarum guys.
12 shots with S5 -1 1dmg compared to
6 shots with S6 -2 AP 1dmg and 8 shots with S8 -3 AP d3 dmg for 10 points less.
the tank also has more than double the moving range
60" range with the 8 shots
can move and shoot without a penalty
can lose 9 wounds and still shoot with 3+ BS
how can a rules write not see this?
I suppose it’s cos the Sagittarum get a 2+/4++ whilst the Caladius only gets a 3+/5++. Would have to run the numbers for defensive comparison to determine how favourable it is. The only noticeable difference will prob be vs str 5 weapons, such as Dissie Cannons, the rest will be wounding them both on either 3’s or 5’s.
I’m personally more confused at the Heavy Blaze Cannons costing 50 points each and the Storm Cannons 40 points each, whilst the Storm Cannon gets 2 shots at a longer range, but the Blaze Cannon only gets 1 shot at half the range.
Not to mention the Palas gets a “normal” -twin- Blaze Cannon for 25 points, all be it at str 7 instead of 9.
Having different names for the same/similar weapons allows GW to adjust the points cost as and when, but, they do then appear to struggle to subsequently cost all the versions appropriately.
2019/01/28 12:02:01
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Doing the math, the twin las-pulsar seems much better than the salvo launchers
Depends on the target, what I am interested in is T8 3+, and against that even a single Salvo launcher does almost equal damage (2.2 dmg for pulsar, 2.1 dmg for salvo). Remember, Salvo launchers re-roll wounds against vehicles. Granted you give up a hurricane bolter for it, but 15 points for a salvo launcher vs 40 for the las-pulsar tips the scale even more.
I'd forgotten about the re-roll. I think the fact they are stronger against T7 3+ would make the argument conclusive, but as you say, 40pts vs 15pts is a fair amount across a whole squad (even at 3 models).
'Anyone can win, but it takes a good man to lose.'
-Louis Guzman
2019/01/28 12:43:06
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Doing the math, the twin las-pulsar seems much better than the salvo launchers
Depends on the target, what I am interested in is T8 3+, and against that even a single Salvo launcher does almost equal damage (2.2 dmg for pulsar, 2.1 dmg for salvo). Remember, Salvo launchers re-roll wounds against vehicles. Granted you give up a hurricane bolter for it, but 15 points for a salvo launcher vs 40 for the las-pulsar tips the scale even more.
I'd forgotten about the re-roll. I think the fact they are stronger against T7 3+ would make the argument conclusive, but as you say, 40pts vs 15pts is a fair amount across a whole squad (even at 3 models).
For 300 points, you could also run 3 Pallas. They will do –
T3, 5+: 1.67 / 2.22 / 4.44 / 3.333
T3, 4+: 1.39 / 1.67 / 3.33 / 2.778
T4, 3+: 0.89 / 0.83 / 1.66 / 2.222
T4, 2+: 0.67 / 0.42 / 0.84 / 1.667 / 2.778
T7, 3+: 0.44 / 0.56 / 1.12 / 1.296 / 3.75
T8, 3+: 0.44 / 0.28 / 0.56 / 1.296 / 2.778
Now, the Pallas aren’t as survivable, being the same toughness and worse saves, but, they also do provide a decent screen vs deep striking units.
2019/01/28 13:05:25
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I'm sad that the alternate fire mode is utterly pointless however.
All of the Adrastite weapons are quite inducing IMO. Low volume of fire, mediocre strength and a mortal wound on a 1 (exacerbated on multiple platforms with no PotMS) is a quick trip to the "never gonna see play" bin.
2019/01/28 18:59:13
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
It’s similar to Erik Trocks list that he recently went 4-1 with, but cuts the blob of 9 Wardens for 6 Aquilon and another Culexus. Seems decent to me still.
2019/01/28 20:14:10
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
nordsturmking wrote: I just realized how much better a Caladius grav tank is when compared to 4 Sagittarum guys.
12 shots with S5 -1 1dmg compared to
6 shots with S6 -2 AP 1dmg and 8 shots with S8 -3 AP d3 dmg for 10 points less.
the tank also has more than double the moving range
60" range with the 8 shots
can move and shoot without a penalty
can lose 9 wounds and still shoot with 3+ BS
how can a rules write not see this?
The tank is FAR less durable. The Sags also have Objective Secured (not worth a lot though)
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/01/28 20:53:25
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Sagitarii are also reasonable melee combatants if you kit them out with Missies. Did a proxy run a few days ago, they're surprisingly well rounded infantry that make excellent disruptors. Their only real drawback is being HS instead of Troops or Elites.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/28 20:53:57
2019/01/28 21:05:51
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Sterling191 wrote: Sagitarii are also reasonable melee combatants if you kit them out with Missies. Did a proxy run a few days ago, they're surprisingly well rounded infantry that make excellent disruptors. Their only real drawback is being HS instead of Troops or Elites.
Well 12 attacks at S5 AP-2 does go a long way.
The tank has Fly so that wouldn't matter too much, though it's a nice feeling that when your opponent charges your shooty unit they still get punched hard back.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/01/28 21:08:16
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Sterling191 wrote: Sagitarii are also reasonable melee combatants if you kit them out with Missies. Did a proxy run a few days ago, they're surprisingly well rounded infantry that make excellent disruptors. Their only real drawback is being HS instead of Troops or Elites.
Being troops would be really nice to free up some more space in a battalion.
They do get Sworn Protectors though; so at least they have Obj.Sec.
2019/01/28 22:03:42
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Sterling191 wrote: Sagitarii are also reasonable melee combatants if you kit them out with Missies. Did a proxy run a few days ago, they're surprisingly well rounded infantry that make excellent disruptors. Their only real drawback is being HS instead of Troops or Elites.
Being troops would be really nice to free up some more space in a battalion.
They do get Sworn Protectors though; so at least they have Obj.Sec.
the tank has the range to sit back and camp in your minus one banner though.
2019/01/28 22:19:27
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
The tank has Fly so that wouldn't matter too much, though it's a nice feeling that when your opponent charges your shooty unit they still get punched hard back.
Moreso it makes them pretty damn good choices for screening squishier units. I'm currently experimenting running them as screens for a Deathwatch list. At T5/3W/2+/4++, +/- a Vexilla they require significant firepower to clear, and anything you run into them (to try and consolidate into the meat of the gunline) that isn't equally nasty up close is gonna get cut to ribbons by those Power Axe equivalent melee attacks.
the tank has the range to sit back and camp in your minus one banner though.
And if you're using Sagitarii to screen a gunline, they're easily gonna be in the bubble too with intelligent placement. Thats their strength, their versatility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/28 22:20:04
2019/01/29 09:02:36
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
nordsturmking wrote: I just realized how much better a Caladius grav tank is when compared to 4 Sagittarum guys.
12 shots with S5 -1 1dmg compared to
6 shots with S6 -2 AP 1dmg and 8 shots with S8 -3 AP d3 dmg for 10 points less.
the tank also has more than double the moving range
60" range with the 8 shots
can move and shoot without a penalty
can lose 9 wounds and still shoot with 3+ BS
how can a rules write not see this?
The tank is FAR less durable. The Sags also have Objective Secured (not worth a lot though)
I disagree. It takes 14 las canon shots from a SM to kill it.Those 14 shots would also kill 3 Sag. Against anything less than S8 and -3 AP the tank is better off.
please explain how the tank is FAR less durable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/29 09:05:59
2019/01/29 10:09:17
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
The Sagitarri sound quite divisive; which is not necessary a bad thing.
I have read about other players also having had good experience with them in 40k; particularly as you can take the Misacondria to give them power axe attacks.
Personally I'd still prefer a Caladius for it's superior movement stats.
2019/01/29 12:54:45
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I agree, with a 14" move, POTMS, and Fly you can zip around the board and fire with impunity as well as get cover much more easily than other vehicles should it need it. And with the nerf to the Telemon's Accelerator Culverins, the Caladius' Twin Accelerator Cannons pairs with it nicely to give them a wide range of targets between the both of them. For 210 points I think the Caladius' is a steal IMO.
changemod wrote: The Sagittarum are effectively lighter versions of Aquillon when you give them Misericordia.
That seems like a bit of a strange comparison to me given that they both have different roles and the ideal load out for Aquilons is probably the firepike with power gauntlets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/29 12:59:36
2019/01/29 13:11:25
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Darkseid wrote: The Sagitarri sound quite divisive; which is not necessary a bad thing.
I have read about other players also having had good experience with them in 40k; particularly as you can take the Misacondria to give them power axe attacks.
Personally I'd still prefer a Caladius for it's superior movement stats.
Fun part is, they're not mutually exclusive units. There's room, and a role, for both in a list.
2019/01/29 13:17:54
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
changemod wrote: The Sagittarum are effectively lighter versions of Aquillon when you give them Misericordia.
That seems like a bit of a strange comparison to me given that they both have different roles and the ideal load out for Aquilons is probably the firepike with power gauntlets.
(Default) gun that fires heavy bolter rounds, capacity to move and shoot, close combat weapon with four solid attacks. (Plus four BS2+ shots at S5 AP-1 and D6 autohit shots at S6 AP-1 have essentially the same favoured targets.)
The Aquillon gets an extra wound, a better close combat weapon and native deep strike, but they’re pretty compatible in role.
2019/01/29 13:46:28
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
changemod wrote: The Sagittarum are effectively lighter versions of Aquillon when you give them Misericordia.
That seems like a bit of a strange comparison to me given that they both have different roles and the ideal load out for Aquilons is probably the firepike with power gauntlets.
(Default) gun that fires heavy bolter rounds, capacity to move and shoot, close combat weapon with four solid attacks. (Plus four BS2+ shots at S5 AP-1 and D6 autohit shots at S6 AP-1 have essentially the same favoured targets.)
The Aquillon gets an extra wound, a better close combat weapon and native deep strike, but they’re pretty compatible in role.
At their price point, using Aquilons for anything other than ripping and tearing with S10 AP-4 power fists is a waste. 88 ppm for the firepike variant is damn pricey for a skirmisher.
2019/01/29 14:03:24
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
changemod wrote: The Sagittarum are effectively lighter versions of Aquillon when you give them Misericordia.
That seems like a bit of a strange comparison to me given that they both have different roles and the ideal load out for Aquilons is probably the firepike with power gauntlets.
(Default) gun that fires heavy bolter rounds, capacity to move and shoot, close combat weapon with four solid attacks. (Plus four BS2+ shots at S5 AP-1 and D6 autohit shots at S6 AP-1 have essentially the same favoured targets.)
The Aquillon gets an extra wound, a better close combat weapon and native deep strike, but they’re pretty compatible in role.
At their price point, using Aquilons for anything other than ripping and tearing with S10 AP-4 power fists is a waste. 88 ppm for the firepike variant is damn pricey for a skirmisher.
Also, four shots at BS2+ is actually fractionally more accurate than d6 shots. Spending an additional 30 points on the unit for +1 strength probably isn’t worthwhile.
I have some Firepike terminators regardless because they look cool, but especially given that the kit came with claws I’m not exactly going to be taking them for their optimality.
2019/01/29 14:06:17
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
The Lastrum Storm Bolters are definitely good but in a meta where -1 to hit can run rampant, autohitting can be a big deal especially if your opponent tries to tie your guys up in combat with chaff or backline counter chargers, in which case the overwatch is much better than with the Storm Bolters (not to mention you go from wounding from 3+ to 2+ against T3 and gain the ability to threaten T5 and T6 better). Either seem like a strong option but at least for me the 30 points you save taking the Storm Bolters make little difference to my lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/29 14:30:02
2019/01/29 15:01:50
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Darkseid wrote: The Sagitarri sound quite divisive; which is not necessary a bad thing.
I have read about other players also having had good experience with them in 40k; particularly as you can take the Misacondria to give them power axe attacks.
Personally I'd still prefer a Caladius for it's superior movement stats.
Fun part is, they're not mutually exclusive units. There's room, and a role, for both in a list.
Role for sure; the room is a bit harder to find. Particularly in battalions, where you need to take a second HQ and 3 troops; the spare points are not easy to get by.
Maybe if I drop the Telemon for the Caladius ... but it is such a nice model
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/29 15:02:04
2019/01/29 17:10:09
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Darkseid wrote: The Sagitarri sound quite divisive; which is not necessary a bad thing.
I have read about other players also having had good experience with them in 40k; particularly as you can take the Misacondria to give them power axe attacks.
Personally I'd still prefer a Caladius for it's superior movement stats.
Fun part is, they're not mutually exclusive units. There's room, and a role, for both in a list.
Role for sure; the room is a bit harder to find. Particularly in battalions, where you need to take a second HQ and 3 troops; the spare points are not easy to get by.
Maybe if I drop the Telemon for the Caladius ... but it is such a nice model
Everytime I start building a list I just keep adding Telemons. I have 3 in my list currently.
2019/01/29 17:23:47
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Audustum wrote: Everytime I start building a list I just keep adding Telemons. I have 3 in my list currently.
The Vertus have been rightfully regarded as the unit that wins games for the custodes. Do the new FW units allow us to leave the Vertus at home and still be somewhat competitive?
Otherwise it's hard to fit all the shiny new tools into a single 1500 list.
2019/01/29 17:28:56
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Audustum wrote: Everytime I start building a list I just keep adding Telemons. I have 3 in my list currently.
The Vertus have been rightfully regarded as the unit that wins games for the custodes. Do the new FW units allow us to leave the Vertus at home and still be somewhat competitive?
Otherwise it's hard to fit all the shiny new tools into a single 1500 list.
I don't think you can leave the jetbike at home. The Telemon lack of mobility so it can easily be avoided by your enemy or tied up by the hordes.
2019/01/29 17:48:24
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Audustum wrote: Everytime I start building a list I just keep adding Telemons. I have 3 in my list currently.
The Vertus have been rightfully regarded as the unit that wins games for the custodes. Do the new FW units allow us to leave the Vertus at home and still be somewhat competitive?
Otherwise it's hard to fit all the shiny new tools into a single 1500 list.
I don't think you can leave the jetbike at home. The Telemon lack of mobility so it can easily be avoided by your enemy or tied up by the hordes.
Gotta disagree. The range on the Telemon is huge so nothing you really want to destroy should be able to ignore you with good deployment.
You can keep them out of melee very effectively with a Guard or AdMech CP battery. If you're staying pure, your Custodian Guard (for a battalion) can make an O.K. perimeter with your Shield-Captain+Vexillus heroically intervening anything that charges the gun nest.
I would actually say you should take Telemons/Aquillons/Foot-Sloggers OR Jetbikes. Our stuff is too expensive to bring it all, especially at 1,500.
So right now I am either running Jetbikes+Castellan Knight or Telemons+Aquillons+Allies/Custodians.
2019/01/29 18:01:53
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I still think Vertus Praetors are still among your best units but with all the new FW units I think you can be successful without spamming them too much, a unit of 3-4 models + a Dawneagle SC should be fine at 1500, and then at 2000 you're fine anywhere between 3-6 models split into 1 unit or 2. It's just really nice to see some variety in pure Custodes lists now and making them look pretty viable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/29 18:57:12
2019/01/29 19:06:13
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
inducing 
