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 Spreelock wrote:
Hey guys, i'm looking for opinion and feedback to starting the custodes army. The plan is to mostly use them to buff my other imperium units, and provide counter assault force. Now, i'm very aware of the jetbikes being ridiculously good, and i'll be planning to add some of them, but not entirely. I'm about to set a limit of 150-200 power level, and i'll appreciate any help on building a list. Here's what i've come up;
- 3x shield captain + 3x vexilla + 3x3 guard (battalion)
- trajann valoris (he seems very powerful)
- 2x shield captain on jetbike + 1-3 units of bikes (not sure)
- terminators (probably 12 models, not sure how to build up)
- custodes wardens (these are optional, to fill up the points)

Personally thats not my style and I find much of that ineffective.

The star of custodes armies currently is surprisingly their vehicles. Telemon and Achilles dreads are great. Grav-attacks are excellent for their points. And the Grav-tanks for me are an auto-take for all my custodes armies.

I find that if your running pure Custodes you really don't need a battalion but if you want the cp loyal 32 or Rusty 17 are better options. For terminators I would only ever take 3 allarus just for unleash the lion shenanigans if you want to go bulk then Aquilons Terminators are much much better. But don't be surprised if they don't do much. While their offense is great....their defense is a little lacking and they are risky to use. Wardens I really only like in a Orion bomb. Which again is risky but potentially very effective. For shield captains Always go with ones on Jetbikes unless you absolute need the points difference for something important. Jetbikes are really really good if your going without forgeworld units then spamming them is your best bet.

So I ordered some Venatari the other day, and am finding it difficult to decide which weapons to give them. The Kinetic Destroyers are far better shooting but the Lance is much better in CC. Any ideas?

Additionally I'm also looking for some Vertus or Allarus helmets if anyone has any spare. I need 3 of the same type, and have ££ or SM parts to trade.

How come no one runs 9x bikes anymore?

karandrasss wrote:
How come no one runs 9x bikes anymore?

Because none of the meta lists have a problem killing 9 bikes in 1-2 turns and there is nothing such a list can do about it, it has 1 tactic and no counter play.

 Valkyrie wrote:
So I ordered some Venatari the other day, and am finding it difficult to decide which weapons to give them. The Kinetic Destroyers are far better shooting but the Lance is much better in CC. Any ideas?

Additionally I'm also looking for some Vertus or Allarus helmets if anyone has any spare. I need 3 of the same type, and have ££ or SM parts to trade.

According to mathhammer in no one situation the spear is better than buckler and pistol. Even in cc the buckler and pistol are better than the spear since you can use the pistol in cc.

From a wider point of view, 3 venetari (with pistols and buckler) can deal a total of 83,19 damage (melee+shooting) against 8+10 targets (T8/2+, T8/3+, T7/3+, T6/3+, T5/2+/3W, T4/2+/2W, T4/3+/1W, T3/5+/1W in melee and against the same plus T7/3+/fly, T6/3+/fly for shooting), that means 0,42 damage per point. with spears the total is equal to 68,039 with a damage per point equal to 0,37.
Moreover, this means that Venetari (with the previous mentioned loadout) are the Custodes third efficient unit per point after Aquilon (0,505) and Wardens (0,422).

Stooping Dive on your opponent's turn with +1 attack for model that died that turn doesn't sound so bad, although very expensive at 700~ points.

I'm starting a Custodes Army, and I want to know the proper ratio of foot soldiers to bikers I should bring. I plan to run biker shield captains for my HQs, but I'm not sure if I still need some bikers in my battalion, and how many. I plan to run an additional Rusty 17.

Thanks!

SirGunslinger wrote:
I'm starting a Custodes Army, and I want to know the proper ratio of foot soldiers to bikers I should bring. I plan to run biker shield captains for my HQs, but I'm not sure if I still need some bikers in my battalion, and how many. I plan to run an additional Rusty 17.

Thanks!

If you're running AdMech for CP already, then ditch the Footstodes. Take an Outrider of Jetbikes and load up. Add Onagers to the AdMech for some distance anti-armor or ally in an Imperial Knight too.

 Ordana wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
How come no one runs 9x bikes anymore?

Because none of the meta lists have a problem killing 9 bikes in 1-2 turns and there is nothing such a list can do about it, it has 1 tactic and no counter play.

I run 9x bikes. Frankly it's more of a style/preference thing; a lot of people like the infantry and in an imperial soup list the troops fill a niche. The key is that you also absolutely need to have a fire support element like 3x Telemons or Caladius tanks, and plain bikes will get shot off the table if you don't have a way to kill the stuff that chews through them before your bikes spread out across the table. ITC terrain also plays a role; Geoff's reason for not running bikes is partially due to them being unable to enter closed buildings.
I have some batreps with my list back on page 89: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2640/749151.page#10431202

Welp. Got my first game in. 1250 points vs Tau.

Used clever deployment to avoid most of his shooting 1st 2 turns, but I basically got tabled by the end. All i had left was a Telemon with 2 wounds. But technically, I was up on points.
My x4 bolter bikes and bike captain kinda fell flat.

What armies do Custodes seem to have good matchups against? Which armies are tough?

Well after the tourney this weekend im really at a loss. I can blame the loss's on the dice but certain armies are honestly just too strong for custodes to compete againgst (dark eldar).


Heres a short breakdown:

Game one- Very close game, 26-25(me) at the end. I honestly should have won this one. My Dawneagle captain was holding a critical objective at the end of the game. He had 2 wounds left and my opponent had one venom in rapid fire range. After shooting he inflicted 4 wounds with no CP and I proceeded to roll 3 1's for armor saves and no FNP rolls, give my opponent 2 points and costing me 1.

Game 2- Grotesque spam with harlies backing them up. I lost this game pretty bad (28-21me), but the opponent was pretty shady. I carefully measured distance with my grav tanks to be out of range of his haywire blasters after consulting him about their range of threat then on his turn he casually says "Oh and I can advance and shoot with no penalty due to this trait" and proceeds to mortal wound my tanks to death. Not to mention towards the end of the game he was scooping his dice rolls before I could see what they were clearly.

3. Chaos knights with some chaos marines also a fire raptor. Won this one 31-22. I got a pretty good start by putting like 11 wounds on the knight in shooting and getting a charge off with both my dawneagle captain and a unit of custodian guard with no overwatch. My opponent retaliated by blowing 2 of my grav tanks up with armigers and lazcannons (swear I couldn't roll a 5+ invun for anything). Turns 3 saw my dawneagle captain charge towards his disk sorc and die ingloriously to a fire rapter and some mortal wounds. After that I managed to bring down the fire raptor with my termy captain and the other tank, but I couldn't do much else but sit around and hold objectives because of model count. His one obliterator sat in my backfield with one wound for 4 turns but I could never kill it. Vindicare assassin does not pull her own for me.

4. Oh joy, dark eldar again. Another loss for me (27-23) Dane was a cool guy though. He had 3 units of wracks, 1 big unit of grots, 3 ravagers, 2 raiders 2 venoms, one big squad of wych's with a succy, 2 archons and a haemonculai. He took engineers on the wracks and ended up maxing it even after I pumped an obscene amount of fire into one of the units. This man could not fail a 4+ invun on his grotesques and I couldn't make a 5+ on my tanks. After a good first 2 turns he basically tabled my long range support by turn 4 and I was stuck in combat in the middle of the table from turns 2-6 with my guardians and dawneagle captain.




Might just drop the assassin and loyal 32 to get a second dawneagle captain and a pallas grav. I get such bad luck with the vindicare and the eversor is really only a backfield distraction. Termy captain can deepstrike but has little shooting presence and is too slow after that so a second biker captain might be the key. It would also make me pure custodes.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Well after the tourney this weekend im really at a loss. I can blame the loss's on the dice but certain armies are honestly just too strong for custodes to compete againgst (dark eldar).


Heres a short breakdown:

Game one- Very close game, 26-25(me) at the end. I honestly should have won this one. My Dawneagle captain was holding a critical objective at the end of the game. He had 2 wounds left and my opponent had one venom in rapid fire range. After shooting he inflicted 4 wounds with no CP and I proceeded to roll 3 1's for armor saves and no FNP rolls, give my opponent 2 points and costing me 1.

Game 2- Grotesque spam with harlies backing them up. I lost this game pretty bad (28-21me), but the opponent was pretty shady. I carefully measured distance with my grav tanks to be out of range of his haywire blasters after consulting him about their range of threat then on his turn he casually says "Oh and I can advance and shoot with no penalty due to this trait" and proceeds to mortal wound my tanks to death. Not to mention towards the end of the game he was scooping his dice rolls before I could see what they were clearly.

3. Chaos knights with some chaos marines also a fire raptor. Won this one 31-22. I got a pretty good start by putting like 11 wounds on the knight in shooting and getting a charge off with both my dawneagle captain and a unit of custodian guard with no overwatch. My opponent retaliated by blowing 2 of my grav tanks up with armigers and lazcannons (swear I couldn't roll a 5+ invun for anything). Turns 3 saw my dawneagle captain charge towards his disk sorc and die ingloriously to a fire rapter and some mortal wounds. After that I managed to bring down the fire raptor with my termy captain and the other tank, but I couldn't do much else but sit around and hold objectives because of model count. His one obliterator sat in my backfield with one wound for 4 turns but I could never kill it. Vindicare assassin does not pull her own for me.

4. Oh joy, dark eldar again. Another loss for me (27-23) Dane was a cool guy though. He had 3 units of wracks, 1 big unit of grots, 3 ravagers, 2 raiders 2 venoms, one big squad of wych's with a succy, 2 archons and a haemonculai. He took engineers on the wracks and ended up maxing it even after I pumped an obscene amount of fire into one of the units. This man could not fail a 4+ invun on his grotesques and I couldn't make a 5+ on my tanks. After a good first 2 turns he basically tabled my long range support by turn 4 and I was stuck in combat in the middle of the table from turns 2-6 with my guardians and dawneagle captain.




Might just drop the assassin and loyal 32 to get a second dawneagle captain and a pallas grav. I get such bad luck with the vindicare and the eversor is really only a backfield distraction. Termy captain can deepstrike but has little shooting presence and is too slow after that so a second biker captain might be the key. It would also make me pure custodes.

Thanks for the batraps. What was your list?

I am currently looking for something so replace the Castellan in my list.

The list i plan to use is this

Trajann
Vexilla
3 Caladius with accelerator
2 Telemon with storm cannon

loyal 32
2x3 mortars

rusty 17

1 assassin

Do you think this could work as a tourny list?

I took a battalion of stodes, one dawneagle captain, one termy captain, 3 units of guardians with one shield. One vexilla magnifica. A spearhead with trajann and 3 calidius.

Loyal 32 and an assassin.


It's got a few bodies, some mobility, hard hitters, but still couldn't beat 3 different dark eldar lists.




Why exactly are grotesques tougher than custodes to kill? Im not sure why they have a 4++. Doesn't make sense from the fluff tbh.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I took a battalion of stodes, one dawneagle captain, one termy captain, 3 units of guardians with one shield. One vexilla magnifica. A spearhead with trajann and 3 calidius.

Loyal 32 and an assassin.

It's got a few bodies, some mobility, hard hitters, but still couldn't beat 3 different dark eldar lists.

Why exactly are grotesques tougher than custodes to kill? Im not sure why they have a 4++. Doesn't make sense from the fluff tbh.

I think they're a 5++, but one of the Coven traits is +1 Invuln.

So, I want to make a list including Allarus Custodians, because I think they can operate fairly well without CP, which is what I am going for. I will likely use the majority of my CP on Blood games, so I want units that can earn points back without costing CP.

Is there a reason everyone poo poos the Allarus? They seem brutally efficient the two times I've used them, sorta how I imagined Terminators should be.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I want to make a list including Allarus Custodians, because I think they can operate fairly well without CP, which is what I am going for. I will likely use the majority of my CP on Blood games, so I want units that can earn points back without costing CP.

Is there a reason everyone poo poos the Allarus? They seem brutally efficient the two times I've used them, sorta how I imagined Terminators should be.

Too expensive for what they do is what it boils down to. Put into stark contrast when compared to jetbikes. A Jetbike Custodes can largely do everything an Allarus can, but better, for the same price AND it comes with anti-horde capabilities the Allarus simply don't have access to.

If you want something CP independent that's like an Allarus, look at Wardens or Aquillons. Wardens have the same hitting strength but are a lot cheaper. Aquillons are as expensive as Allarus/Jetbikes but do significantly more damage with their Solarite Gauntlets.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I want to make a list including Allarus Custodians, because I think they can operate fairly well without CP, which is what I am going for. I will likely use the majority of my CP on Blood games, so I want units that can earn points back without costing CP.

Is there a reason everyone poo poos the Allarus? They seem brutally efficient the two times I've used them, sorta how I imagined Terminators should be.

Because everyone likes the hurricane bolter vertus bikes. You get that movement and the gun for a few points more.

I like Allarus just fine tbh

The problem with Aquillons is I honestly can't justify keeping that many points off the board for that long. As for the Wardens, I am paying Allarus prices for something that basically has a 5(?)+ FNP, and half the shooting.

I was thinking going Jetbike Custodes, but I haven't seen them used at all, or good techniques.

As for bikes, I love models, the units, everything. But about 600pts in just anti horde leaves me with little anti armor potential. At least the Allarus are fighting on S8 hits. I may just go with the Jetpacks and Gravtanks.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem with Aquillons is I honestly can't justify keeping that many points off the board for that long. As for the Wardens, I am paying Allarus prices for something that basically has a 5(?)+ FNP, and half the shooting.

I was thinking going Jetbike Custodes, but I haven't seen them used at all, or good techniques.

As for bikes, I love models, the units, everything. But about 600pts in just anti horde leaves me with little anti armor potential. At least the Allarus are fighting on S8 hits. I may just go with the Jetpacks and Gravtanks.

Don't let the S6 of the Jetbikes fool you. Since they re-roll all damage on the charge and have one more AP, there isn't much difference. To give a quick comparison:

On the charge, against a T8 3+ target, one Allarus model averages 2.22 wounds with 1.98 standard deviation (27% change of 0 wounds). A Jetbike averages 3.09 with 2.20 standard deviation (14% chance to do 0). Their melee anti-armor is about the same.

For the Aquillons, you should be holding about the same amount of points of them in reserve as you are with Allarus. Footslogging the Allarus is a bad idea and our Land Raider is waaaaaaay too expensive (some people get an Orion to work though).

For the Wardens, they trade 1 Wound, innate Deep Strike and the Balistus Grenade Launcher (which only has a 12" range anyway) for a 5+++ and a fairly steep price reduction.

Anyway, you don't see mass Jetbikes too much anymore because Custodes players are moving onto Grav-Tank lists. Something akin to:

Trajann
-1 to Hit Flag
Caladius
Caladius
Caladius

Which does a huge amount of damage over an immense range while sporting crazy durability (the Caladius has a -2 Charge effect for enemies, can Fall Back and Shoot thanks to Fly, large movement, more than 60" range on its gun, e.t.c.). Thet Jetbikes, despite largely outclassing our Codex, are largely being outclassed by our Flying Tanks.

Thank you for this write up! It really answers a lot of my questions. I guess I was too hung up on the strength of the lance vs. the axe.

Thanks for your help!

Hey guys, thinking of something along these lines for attempting to make an as-competitive-as-possible pure Custodes list. I'm wondering if this is the obvious build or if there is something better I'm missing out on. I really actually would prefer infantry-heavy as I feel like the tanks wouldn't be a ton of fun to play as they seem like a sit and shoot death star but maybe I'm wrong.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [58 PL, 5CP, 1,203pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Open the Vaults (1 Relic) [-1CP]

Operative Requisition Sanctioned [-2CP, 85pts]

Use Beta Rules

+ HQ +

Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 185pts]

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia, Radiant Mantle, Warlord
. Auric Aquilis

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia
. Eagle's Eye

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 161pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 161pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 161pts]
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield

+ Elites +

Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 122pts]: Guardian Spear, Vexilla Magnifica

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [39 PL, 1CP, 794pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia

+ Heavy Support +

Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

++ Total: [97 PL, 6CP, 1,997pts] ++

You are going to have an easy time against knights, and a hard time against an army designed to hold objectives. You don't have a lot that can effectively hold an objective, now that everything has "objective secured" etc.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You are going to have an easy time against knights, and a hard time against an army designed to hold objectives. You don't have a lot that can effectively hold an objective, now that everything has "objective secured" etc.

Everything in that list except the tanks (and assassin) has ObSec, and if you cant sweep most Troop units off points with that much firepower I dont know what to say.

Right, Except when two units have ObjSec, the one with more models wins. Short of Knights, we aren't getting the objective against other troops.

It's honestly been my biggest struggle playing custodes. Do I use my dakka blowing up the tzangors holding the objective, or do I turn it all at the two daemon princes who are about to murder my tanks in CC?

Horde armies can really dictate the fight against us, which makes it difficult to play anything but wipe the board.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, Except when two units have ObjSec, the one with more models wins. Short of Knights, we aren't getting the objective against other troops.

You have hurricane bolters and multiple burst-firing Caladii. Why the hell are enemy troops alive?

 iGuy91 wrote:
Welp. Got my first game in. 1250 points vs Tau.

Used clever deployment to avoid most of his shooting 1st 2 turns, but I basically got tabled by the end. All i had left was a Telemon with 2 wounds. But technically, I was up on points.
My x4 bolter bikes and bike captain kinda fell flat.

What armies do Custodes seem to have good matchups against? Which armies are tough?

I think tyranids vs Custodes is one of the better matches I get with them. Nids seem to have an advantage but custodes are always in it (especially if there is a central objective). Custodes vs Tau is one of the worst I think. Custodes have almost no chance against Tau.

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, Except when two units have ObjSec, the one with more models wins. Short of Knights, we aren't getting the objective against other troops.

You have hurricane bolters and multiple burst-firing Caladii. Why the hell are enemy troops alive?

Did you see my post? I literally said we have three main objectives, of at which we can handle 2 at most, and a single one of the three can crush us. We can be anti-horde, anti-armor, or objective holders, but we can't do all three.

Against a squad of 15 tzangors, backed up by tzeench sorcerers, or daemon princes, are -1 to hit, and get a myriad of other buffs, he won't do so hot.

He has 3 separate bikes on his list. given the standard rerolls, each will in the shooting phase, kill about 2 models out of 15. That isn't enough, even if all three focus fire down the squad, to take out a single squad of Tzangors. Then he might just get them all back in moral. It gets even worse if he's up against Deathguard.

Everyone loves to love the bikes, because they are totally awesome, but there are a lot of ways to cheese them out. And before you say what about the tanks, keep in mind there are other more important targets than a squad of entrenched troops.

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, Except when two units have ObjSec, the one with more models wins. Short of Knights, we aren't getting the objective against other troops.

You have hurricane bolters and multiple burst-firing Caladii. Why the hell are enemy troops alive?

You usually don't have both and that's the Crux of the problem. Running both Caladii AND Jetbikes leaves you very CP starved and short on screens (though Caladii are more screen independent).

In ITC you can balance this out because all you're losing is 'hold more' most likely. You can get kill, kill more, hold one and take kill secondaries. NOVA you can pick endgame scoring. If you're doing ETC or GW missions though it can be much more troublesome.

As someone who plays (and this is all in ITC, mind you) pure knights running 4-6 models and occasionally with up to 2 knights who count as troops or count as 10 troops, I don't find the low model count per unit the issue with holding objectives, it's the relatively low number of units total. Not having enough units to reach various parts of the board, or enough left over to do so on turns 3, 4, and 5. If my opponent has 30 boys holding objective 2 and I want them gone, they're gone. There's no popular troops choice in 40k 8th edition, for the most part, that isn't easily removable, so the numerical models per unit disadvantage isn't a total killer.

SevenSixTwoX39 wrote:
As someone who plays (and this is all in ITC, mind you) pure knights running 4-6 models and occasionally with up to 2 knights who count as troops or count as 10 troops, I don't find the low model count per unit the issue with holding objectives, it's the relatively low number of units total. Not having enough units to reach various parts of the board, or enough left over to do so on turns 3, 4, and 5. If my opponent has 30 boys holding objective 2 and I want them gone, they're gone. There's no popular troops choice in 40k 8th edition, for the most part, that isn't easily removable, so the numerical models per unit disadvantage isn't a total killer.

No offense, but a knight player stating they can wipe troops or chaff off the board doesn't mean much. That's like saying 1kSons have psykic. It's the bare minimum. If you play knights and can't wipe troops off the map, well, sorry.

But we are discussing the ability for Custodes to take and hold OBJs. Which we struggle with, because almost EVERYONE now has some form of objective secured. And it's hard for us to dedicate units to both holding objectives and wiping out chaff. It's not the express purpose of Custodes I would argue. The main play style for Custodes is to table the opponent. Nothing else matters. You will lose objectives to larger hordes, and you can't go toe to toe with anything above T8 without FW.