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The production on the stream is some of the best I've ever seen with clear audio and excellent camera angles.
The match was also fantastic. Great comeback by Geoff T4: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/430379093

There is no reason to nerf our FW stuff. Its efficient compared to the rest of the custodes range yes, but its just barely floating compared to DE and AM.

If anything, i'd reduce the points cost on custodian guard by 3-4 points per model and all termies by 5ppm.

Eh, the Caladius grav tank is quite a bit under costed. Compare it to a Leman Russ Tank Commander, and it's obviously too cheap by 30 or 40 points.

The Caladius is definitely much better than I gave it credit for when I first saw it. It doesn't have nearly the durability of a leviathan dread or telemon... but man, that 14" fly move is a game-changer.

Dreads require a lot of babysitting against melee to continue doing damage effectively, whereas grav-tanks don't care...

Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?

Lot. GW doesn't want players to buy resin as it's less profitable as plastic. That's how you get with 300% price hike to units that already were underperforming for points.

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?

Lot. GW doesn't want players to buy resin as it's less profitable as plastic. That's how you get with 300% price hike to units that already were underperforming for points.

It's not because GW thinks they are overpowered. They have been gradually phasing out especially titanic forgeworld with point cost hikes because they don't want to see those units in matched play(=tournaments), but none of the point costs have changed their power levels

Question. Friend in my FLGC is starting a 1ksons army. Can Custodes hang with that sort of mortal wound output? i know smite and most powers rely on LOS. If i'm clever about it, I can hopefully reduce the pain some.
Would that be a good reason to take impregnable mind for the WL, rather than superior creation? Seems an uphill battle, but at least we have answers to tzangor bombs. (tanglefoot grenades)

 iGuy91 wrote:
Question. Friend in my FLGC is starting a 1ksons army. Can Custodes hang with that sort of mortal wound output? i know smite and most powers rely on LOS. If i'm clever about it, I can hopefully reduce the pain some.
Would that be a good reason to take impregnable mind for the WL, rather than superior creation? Seems an uphill battle, but at least we have answers to tzangor bombs. (tanglefoot grenades)

It can be tough and i highly recommend a culexus Assassin

 iGuy91 wrote:
Question. Friend in my FLGC is starting a 1ksons army. Can Custodes hang with that sort of mortal wound output? i know smite and most powers rely on LOS. If i'm clever about it, I can hopefully reduce the pain some.
Would that be a good reason to take impregnable mind for the WL, rather than superior creation? Seems an uphill battle, but at least we have answers to tzangor bombs. (tanglefoot grenades)

It's basically the Rock/Paper/Scizzors counter to our army. It's got all the strengths to perfectly target our weaknesses. Some take a Culexus, some take Sister's of Silence. With the recent CP/points nerf to Assasins, I usually take SoS over Culexus. Only played two games against 1KSons, but SoS earned their 150pts back and then some. They are amazing psycker hunters, and are great at denying psyckic at all with their Null properties.

If you're opponent is dumb enough to charge your guys, eat his lunch, but I would recommend going heavy infantry over large killy bots and tanks. You want bodies over bullets against 1kSons.

which type of SOS did you use?

 Danarc wrote:
which type of SOS did you use?

Prosecutors, the ones with Bolters. It's 50pts for a squad of 5 bolters with 4+ shooting. Not too shabby. They don't get Bolter Drill, but they still do alright. I want to try and use the Wytchseekers, or the ones with all flamers? That seems like a scary thing for 1ksuns to have to deal with when I get in range of their psyckers.

You might be better of with a Vindicare to remove Ahriman/DP's then a Culexus. Esp since 1k sons have 24" range smite and can just stay out of the Culexus range.

 Ordana wrote:
You might be better of with a Vindicare to remove Ahriman/DP's then a Culexus. Esp since 1k sons have 24" range smite and can just stay out of the Culexus range.

Though, to be fair. If the Culexis is out front, he will absorb the smites for no damage.
Vindy aint a bad idea though.
SoS aint bad either, use them as bubble wrap for screens, also smite-immune.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Though, to be fair. If the Culexis is out front, he will absorb the smites for no damage.
Vindy aint a bad idea though.
SoS aint bad either, use them as bubble wrap for screens, also smite-immune.

Tzangors are uniquely empowered to fight Culexii. A single Shaman with Presience will have foot goats hitting 4s. The same Shammy with flyin goats will have them hitting and auto-wounding on 4s.

And I really hate to rain on the parade, but TSons are exquisitely well equipped to shred T3/3+ screens. At the point levels youd need to effectively screen with them for more than one turn, you might as well just bring in some allied psykers.

The SoS bubble wrap best because they are always the closest target, so Smite is negated at any time. As for the targeted psychic attacks and buffs, you really can't help that.

Any good 1ksons player will have +2 to casts, so the -1/-2 aura from null/culexus won't effect much. The best you can hope for with the culexus is a super powered anti-psyker offensive game, while SoS is a pretty decent defensive game with a basic level shooting game that can target psykers.

Also 15 models/wounds for 150pts, vs, 2cp and 85pts for 1 model, 4 wounds. Also a good time to include that the SoS will gain far better advantage from Vexhilla Praetor buffs than the assassin will.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The SoS bubble wrap best because they are always the closest target, so Smite is negated at any time. As for the targeted psychic attacks and buffs, you really can't help that.

Any good 1ksons player will have +2 to casts, so the -1/-2 aura from null/culexus won't effect much. The best you can hope for with the culexus is a super powered anti-psyker offensive game, while SoS is a pretty decent defensive game with a basic level shooting game that can target psykers.

Also 15 models/wounds for 150pts, vs, 2cp and 85pts for 1 model, 4 wounds. Also a good time to include that the SoS will gain far better advantage from Vexhilla Praetor buffs than the assassin will.

A couple notes I'm just adding on:

1. SoS aura stacks with itself up to -4 I believe and their Rhinos make one too. You can make a bit sturdier wall of transports.

2. SoS SHOULD also stack with Culexus aura. Similar name but different rules.

3. TSons out ranges the both of them though so it won't save a lot unless you bring a lot (something we have issue with due to our high point costs).

I mean, you could waste 100-120 points to give your 150 point screen that wont survive to turn two a 5++ that they'll never benefit from. But that doesnt strike me as a terribly intelligent decision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:


1. SoS aura stacks with itself up to -4 I believe and their Rhinos make one too. You can make a bit sturdier wall of transports.

Null maiden rhinos don't have an anti-cast aura. They're simply re-keyworded Rhinos that SoS can use.

Postulent wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?

Lot. GW doesn't want players to buy resin as it's less profitable as plastic. That's how you get with 300% price hike to units that already were underperforming for points.

It's not because GW thinks they are overpowered. They have been gradually phasing out especially titanic forgeworld with point cost hikes because they don't want to see those units in matched play(=tournaments), but none of the point costs have changed their power levels

It's not just titanic. Basically anything players mlght want to take gw wants to smack away so only collectors who don't spam same unit buys them. Gw wants that 500 pound spent on plastic they make automatedly with practically free material rather than 500 pound on more expensive material that is more labour intesive as it's not as automated as plastic.

It's simple business. Gw doesn't care about balance. It's just manipulating what people buy.

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The SoS bubble wrap best because they are always the closest target, so Smite is negated at any time. As for the targeted psychic attacks and buffs, you really can't help that.

Any good 1ksons player will have +2 to casts, so the -1/-2 aura from null/culexus won't effect much. The best you can hope for with the culexus is a super powered anti-psyker offensive game, while SoS is a pretty decent defensive game with a basic level shooting game that can target psykers.

Also 15 models/wounds for 150pts, vs, 2cp and 85pts for 1 model, 4 wounds. Also a good time to include that the SoS will gain far better advantage from Vexhilla Praetor buffs than the assassin will.

A couple notes I'm just adding on:

1. SoS aura stacks with itself up to -4 I believe and their Rhinos make one too. You can make a bit sturdier wall of transports.

2. SoS SHOULD also stack with Culexus aura. Similar name but different rules.

3. TSons out ranges the both of them though so it won't save a lot unless you bring a lot (something we have issue with due to our high point costs).

3. - Doesn't matter. Smite must target the nearest visible model. Unless you are a doof you will keep your Sisters between your enemy's psykers and your units. They cannot be targeted by Smite. Period. Nor can Culexus Assassins. Please forgive me if I misread your point, but it seems like you are saying they don't lock down psyker smite.

2. Should doesn't really matter?

1. -3. And even then, if you death star up your sister squads, you are missing the point of having them in the first place. They bubble shield all custodes from having to take mortal wounds. Don't consolidate them, spread them out. Thus, their stacking buff doesn't really ever come into play.

Sterling191 wrote:
I mean, you could waste 100-120 points to give your 150 point screen that wont survive to turn two a 5++ that they'll never benefit from. But that doesnt strike me as a terribly intelligent decision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:


1. SoS aura stacks with itself up to -4 I believe and their Rhinos make one too. You can make a bit sturdier wall of transports.

Null maiden rhinos don't have an anti-cast aura. They're simply re-keyworded Rhinos that SoS can use.

You're right! They took it away! In 7th, SoS Rhino's had Psychic Abomination and I got my wires crossed.

Audustum wrote:


You're right! They took it away! In 7th, SoS Rhino's had Psychic Abomination and I got my wires crossed.

S'all good sir. Edition changes do that. Excepting Assasins, most of the fragmented "Agents of the Imperium" really need some love right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They bubble shield all custodes from having to take mortal wounds. Don't consolidate them, spread them out. Thus, their stacking buff doesn't really ever come into play.

That's not how that works.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The SoS bubble wrap best because they are always the closest target, so Smite is negated at any time. As for the targeted psychic attacks and buffs, you really can't help that.

Any good 1ksons player will have +2 to casts, so the -1/-2 aura from null/culexus won't effect much. The best you can hope for with the culexus is a super powered anti-psyker offensive game, while SoS is a pretty decent defensive game with a basic level shooting game that can target psykers.

Also 15 models/wounds for 150pts, vs, 2cp and 85pts for 1 model, 4 wounds. Also a good time to include that the SoS will gain far better advantage from Vexhilla Praetor buffs than the assassin will.

A couple notes I'm just adding on:

1. SoS aura stacks with itself up to -4 I believe and their Rhinos make one too. You can make a bit sturdier wall of transports.

2. SoS SHOULD also stack with Culexus aura. Similar name but different rules.

3. TSons out ranges the both of them though so it won't save a lot unless you bring a lot (something we have issue with due to our high point costs).

3. - Doesn't matter. Smite must target the nearest visible model. Unless you are a doof you will keep your Sisters between your enemy's psykers and your units. They cannot be targeted by Smite. Period. Nor can Culexus Assassins. Please forgive me if I misread your point, but it seems like you are saying they don't lock down psyker smite.

2. Should doesn't really matter?

1. -3. And even then, if you death star up your sister squads, you are missing the point of having them in the first place. They bubble shield all custodes from having to take mortal wounds. Don't consolidate them, spread them out. Thus, their stacking buff doesn't really ever come into play.

Only partially misunderstood.

3. Yeah, I wasn't disputing they can shut it off that way (though I was intimating it might not be worth spending enough points on them to make a big wall that couldn't be shot down easy). The range is more important for keeping enemy psykers in range for when they cast things like Glamour and Death Hex and the huge boost they have make it hard to do that.

2. I can't see how it wouldn't. If you're trying to drag down your opponent's casting with modifiers, stacking yourself up to -6 seems pretty significant (if you can manage the positioning, which is hard against TSons).

1. My Index says -4. Did they FAQ it somewhere? Anyway, my thoughts were that if you only take a minimum, you won't have enough to play the positioning war with TSons and/or they'll just get shot off the board. You'd need a lot of them, thus also making it easier to stack.

So,

My main point is, Any 1kSons army you are facing with a half-decent setup is going to be casting on +2 and I think +3 is possible but I also think it's now illegal(?). That being said, Any negative modifiers you apply are just reducing them back to normality. +/- 0 to cast. It would take a lot to drop them into negatives.

If we are still talking a Custodes/SoS soup army, you don't have the points, or the time, to waste setting up a big SoS faction going around debuffing Ahriman. You just don't.

You're going to be getting charged by daemons and tzangors by turn 2, so you can't play keep away, or hope your opponent tries to be a shooting army. 1kSons are almost a majority fight army, a lot of their daemons and stuff don't even have guns.

So, in my summation, if you are going up against a 1ksons army, as a custodes army, build your list around a small force of Null maidens or a single Culexus, but don't expect it to make a major difference. They are there to dull the psychic phase, but you are still gonna get smacked with a full psyker army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So,

Here's the list I play against my friend's Chaos Soup (mostly 1kSons with other nurgle flavor):

HQ:

Trojan Valor
Shield Captain w/ Axe, Impregnable Mind, Eagle Eye, Warlord

Troops: 3 Squads of Cust Guard w/ spears

Elites: Vex Magnifica Praetor w/ spear

Fast Attack: Squad of 3x Vertus Praetors w/ Bolters

Heavy: Two Callidus Tanks with Accelerators

Vanguard Det of 3x SoS Prosecutor Squads 5x bolters

1749pts - 8CP

I form ranks from my SoS to hold off any smites and back them up with guard squads, send out my Vertus to hold a point. Trojan, Tanks, and Flag sit on the back field and take shots at anything that looks funny at my lines.

Turn two I go hunting with the tanks and Trojan, and start walking my lines forward. I will get charged next turn likely, so I charge my guys instead.

I have won 1-3 matches. But it could have ended 3-0 or 0-3. Dice play a large part in the massive rolls offs of Psyker stuff.

tneva82 wrote:

Postulent wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, we don't have to worry about point changes for another 4-6 months. That being said, I don't expect FW stuff to take a nerf, how often does GW nerf FW?

Lot. GW doesn't want players to buy resin as it's less profitable as plastic. That's how you get with 300% price hike to units that already were underperforming for points.

It's not because GW thinks they are overpowered. They have been gradually phasing out especially titanic forgeworld with point cost hikes because they don't want to see those units in matched play(=tournaments), but none of the point costs have changed their power levels

It's not just titanic. Basically anything players mlght want to take gw wants to smack away so only collectors who don't spam same unit buys them. Gw wants that 500 pound spent on plastic they make automatedly with practically free material rather than 500 pound on more expensive material that is more labour intesive as it's not as automated as plastic.

It's simple business. Gw doesn't care about balance. It's just manipulating what people buy.

But, it's bad business to limit forgeworld like they have done, since it decreases sales. If the only interest would be profits, it would be counter-productive to their interests to phase FW out like they have done, since they are essentially sabotaging the sales of their own products.

Re: the economics of FW stuff, its not just the cost of the manufacturing material that needs to be considered.

The reason FW was created and also why they continue to produce new kits, is that resin casting has a far smaller startup cost than plastic molding for a new kit.

Basically it costs less to use resin to make a model when the number of model kits made is small, and less to use plastic when the number of models kits made is large. Games Workshop long ago discovered that there was a niche market within 40k for players who wanted giant monstrosities to put on the table, and there still is.They know people buy this stuff for reasons other than cut-thoat tabletop performance so they're not scared to price it out of competitive play points wise. It got a bit muddled along the way when FW was given responsibility for supporting 30k, chapter upgrade kits etc, so they produce a lot of smaller kits too. This is why we Custodes players find ourselves in the mess of having to buy half our range from FW.

Its important to note however that the 40k beta rules for the Custodes FW range did NOT come from Forgeworld. They are a product of the main GW rules team, so any nerfing/buffing/updating will be handled probably the same way that most other rule sources are.

GW definitely manipulate balance in order to get their kits selling well, but remember this isn't a typical situation like with a plastic kit. The big money incentive to sell truck loads of kits isn't as strong with Forgeworld resin ones for the reason I mentioned above, so I would hope that in the future, things just get balanced according to how they perform in game, and feedback given.

Edit: But who knows really, GW have proven many times that they sometimes choose to use the headless chicken approach when deciding what to nerf or buff.

Can I claim forerunner status on use of the Callidus? Looks like after a couple of good tournament placements people are well aware of them now.

Hmm time to see if I can find any other hidden gems.

Yes I think that's fair to say, I was underwhelmed by the Caladius (assume thats what you mean), comparing it to the old Telemon it has far less shots which initially put me off, but all the extra useful rules and cheaper price really makes it a nice shooty option along with Valoris or a Captain. And certainly durable enough with the invuln and a banner.

The range and the fact that it flies makes it work.

Callidus is going to have to take a nerf. For 120 base points it outperforms pretty much everything in it's class. It really needs to be a higher base cost. Fly, PoTMS, Invuln, high strength long range dakka, lotsa dakka....I'd say it's more realistic at 180-200 base. Are we really saying that it should only cost 30-40 points more than Trojan?