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Spartacus wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
He's got a point though, irrelevant discussion is why these threads are perceived as such an inaccessible mess. Honestly if most of what gets discussed is peoples outrage over FW pricing, and these threads are going to be banned anyway, I'm about ready to move on from dakka.

They're not inaccessible.

In any case, the fact that forgeworld is a requirement to get the most out of a custodes force is worthy of comment on.

1. I agree they're not, Ive argued as such with those who wish to ban these threads.

2. That is not what is being argued though, we all know that FW is essential to a good Custodes army right now. Essentially what is being discussed is an interpretation of what the meaning of "too much" is. If FW resin models cost 20% or 70% more than regular GW plastic ones it is quite reasonable to assess this as either 'just fine' or 'too much' depending on your point of view. Its entirely subjective but being stated as fact. Arguing over semantics over the internet isn't productive or relevant to custodes.

Arguing semantics is at least 50 percent of pretty much every thread on this forum. Opinions on what is good or not are often only loosely connected to hard facts, and are based largely on soft conjecture and second hand experience.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I thought the new Obscuration rule was if part of the model was "obscured" then the unit counted as being in cover. Granted this was from a spikeybits twitch stream, and I admit i likely misheard it. They said it was basically back to 4th, whatever that meant?

But If we are talking tactics, can Custodes now leap frog from cover to cover, and then charge? I mean this is essentially what we have to do now, but I currently run a mostly biker army, and don't see how the terrain rules could positively affect Custodes?Being the largest models for troops in the game, I can't see the benefit for us.

Obscured just means that obscuring terrain more than 5" tall blocks line of sight to things on the other side of it, whether the physical terrain model does or not. I think it mainly benefits jetbikes - there were many times in 8th an opponent could draw line of sight to a speartip peaking over top of a ruin.

Cover is very board dependent. The -1 to hit cover (probably Dense Cover) is pretty good for Custodes outside of Vexilla range and lets you spread out a bit more. Unfortunately, the tournaments I've been too usually have lots of ruins but relatively fewer things like woods.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
On topic, Goonhammer has their review of Custodes up: https://www.goonhammer.com/war-of-the-spider-review-part-2-adeptus-custodes/

Nothing we really haven’t covered here, they don’t seem as impressed by dread host as we do though.

Shane seems jazzed, Wings is the skeptic. Seems he's worried 3D6 won't be reliable enough.

3D6 is PRETTY good though. That's just over 50% which is pretty reliable all things considered.

Yeah, I'm in the jazzed camp!

Covenant wrote:
I feel like everybody is talking about 9th, but what about tactics in 8th? Usually the codex that came last each edition has been the best. What does the PA-rules say about our Custodes and/or Imperial soup-army? What will help those who are not willing to spend hundreds of €£¥$ in new books - again? (I have not played enough games of 8th compared to the investment of 7 Big armies... and those 14 books à 30-40€ )

Well, 9th is supposedly a month away. So with most tournaments still shut down for what remains of 8th it makes sense to look ahead.
I think soup is probably mostly dead, and outside of a fringe bodyguard Aquilan Shield build it doesn’t buy you much. Sisters are cheap enough (50 pts/squad) and can fill the role that admech and Astra Militarum did.

I think what is good in 8th to 9th won’t change all that much, depending on points costs. I’m guessing either terminators, bikes, or vehicles will be the “best”, with the other 2 close behind. In 8th a blob of terminators or bikes is ideal for the strategems, in 9th 5-man squads will be better with Blast weapon rules.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Covenant wrote:
I feel like everybody is talking about 9th, but what about tactics in 8th? Usually the codex that came last each edition has been the best. What does the PA-rules say about our Custodes and/or Imperial soup-army? What will help those who are not willing to spend hundreds of €£¥$ in new books - again? (I have not played enough games of 8th compared to the investment of 7 Big armies... and those 14 books à 30-40€ )

Well, 9th is supposedly a month away. So with most tournaments still shut down for what remains of 8th it makes sense to look ahead.
I think soup is probably mostly dead, and outside of a fringe bodyguard Aquilan Shield build it doesn’t buy you much. Sisters are cheap enough (50 pts/squad) and can fill the role that admech and Astra Militarum did.

I think what is good in 8th to 9th won’t change all that much, depending on points costs. I’m guessing either terminators, bikes, or vehicles will be the “best”, with the other 2 close behind. In 8th a blob of terminators or bikes is ideal for the strategems, in 9th 5-man squads will be better with Blast weapon rules.

The issue is that you only get 2 elite slots in a patrol, and I think patrols will be the most efficient detachment for custodes considering the low quality of custodes troop choices.

Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.

I’m thinking every CP is precious so double patrol, each with whatever HQ we want and then 1 unit of 5 shield guard in each. Let’s you take 4 elite/fast/heavy then.

What did I miss? Are there no more battleforged requirements? I see people suggesting to use Sisters as a cheap filler, but those are Elites, no?

Malefic666 wrote:
Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.

Oh, I must have missed this, is it confirmed? Patrol costs 1CP and Vanguard costs 2?

Malefic666 wrote:
Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.

I’m thinking every CP is precious so double patrol, each with whatever HQ we want and then 1 unit of 5 shield guard in each. Let’s you take 4 elite/fast/heavy then.

You can take 0-6 Elites in a Battalion (https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/qR8b5C2Wpe0YK0es.jpg) and our one good Heavy Support would be Rule of 3'd out after three selections anyway. Unless I was going all-in on Bikes, the Battalion is probably enough for 90% of lists.

 Asmodai wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:
Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.

I’m thinking every CP is precious so double patrol, each with whatever HQ we want and then 1 unit of 5 shield guard in each. Let’s you take 4 elite/fast/heavy then.

You can take 0-6 Elites in a Battalion (https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/qR8b5C2Wpe0YK0es.jpg) and our one good Heavy Support would be Rule of 3'd out after three selections anyway. Unless I was going all-in on Bikes, the Battalion is probably enough for 90% of lists.

The issue is trying to limit your troop tax, since custodes troop choices are a tax, both in forgeworld and not forgeworld heavy lists. a patrol require just 1 troop as opposed to three, giving you like 300 extra points minimum of stuff your didn't have to put into 6 guardians or sags.

stratigo wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Malefic666 wrote:
Double patrol looks increasingly likely if we need 3-4 of whatever (elite, fast etc). Patrol is 1CP so double patrol costs 1CP after the refund. Vanguard is 2CP, and you don’t get the CP refunded for warlord In that detachment so it all depends if you want to spend 2CP pre game.

I’m thinking every CP is precious so double patrol, each with whatever HQ we want and then 1 unit of 5 shield guard in each. Let’s you take 4 elite/fast/heavy then.

You can take 0-6 Elites in a Battalion (https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/qR8b5C2Wpe0YK0es.jpg) and our one good Heavy Support would be Rule of 3'd out after three selections anyway. Unless I was going all-in on Bikes, the Battalion is probably enough for 90% of lists.

The issue is trying to limit your troop tax, since custodes troop choices are a tax, both in forgeworld and not forgeworld heavy lists. a patrol require just 1 troop as opposed to three, giving you like 300 extra points minimum of stuff your didn't have to put into 6 guardians or sags.

Exactly. Sure we can take a battalion but 3 troop choices is prohibitively expensive and units of 3 just won’t cut it anymore as if one dies the enemy can shoot your Vexilla or SC or whatever. Like I said, we’ll see a lot of Patrol or double Patrol I think... No the CPs isn’t ‘confirmed’ but trust me, this is what they’ll cost.

Edit. We’ll have to see how many troop units we need. Paying the CP for a vanguard or outrider may well be worth it if we only need one blob of guards. We’ll see I guess.

2 units of 5 is more expensive than 3 units of 3 btw.

Yes you only have to kill 1 guy per squad to stop character protection, but you have 3 squads to do that with instead of 2 squads, and thus have to split your fire more (potentially wasting more shots).

Also, since our tanks and big dreads still give character protection just fine, im thinking a battalion will be just fine.

Some love for the battalion on here lol. Go with a battalion then, I’m not arguing that one is ‘better’ than the other but just about taking what fits best. Irrespective of what argument you try to construct, a patrol only requires one troop and so opens up a lot of utility for us. Want to only spend 150pts on guard, check. Want just one/two guard units cos bringing sisters, check. Want dual hosts, check (take dual patrol). Want 1 HQ, check. Just food for thought in our list building.

While it’s too early to tell for sure but I’m already hearing back from folks that 3 guards is just a waste, too expensive to leave back on an obj when we have cheap sisters, not worthy of strat investment, and impacted by the new character rules. If you’re bringing vehicles then cool, that solves one issue to an extent. I’m kinda thinking I want to run two shield hosts anyway so a battalion doesn’t fit my thinking... I’ll run bikes in Shadowkeepers patrol & Allarus & Dreads in a Dreadhost patrol getting all the benefits of both strats. Grim responsibility has real utility on bikes and is a a solid & cheaper alternative to Arcane genetic alchemy. Allarus and Telemon enjoy GLO Moraides.

On another note Ryan Snyder Got top 8 at another event with his Mech Custodes list. List was: Bike Captain, 3 Caladius, 2 Achillus, 1 Ares,1 Knight-Castigator.
I’d completely missed the Strat Vengeance of the Machine Spirit letting you shoot a weapon on top bracket. That’s petty good.

yeah, but mostly i was just stating i think a battalion is better than 2 patrols.

Im also thinking we will see alot of Outrider/Spearhead lists with no troops at all.

Captain Commander Poleaxe of doom leading a venatari squad and 2 pallas assaults
Plus
Trajan/w 2 callidus grav tanks and a telemon

that list is gonna be pretty nasty.

the threat from the deep strikers (CC, venatari, telemon) means your opponent has to spread out which the tanks love.

Malefic666 wrote:
Exactly. Sure we can take a battalion but 3 troop choices is prohibitively expensive and units of 3 just won’t cut it anymore as if one dies the enemy can shoot your Vexilla or SC or whatever. Like I said, we’ll see a lot of Patrol or double Patrol I think... No the CPs isn’t ‘confirmed’ but trust me, this is what they’ll cost.

Edit. We’ll have to see how many troop units we need. Paying the CP for a vanguard or outrider may well be worth it if we only need one blob of guards. We’ll see I guess.

And source is what? Have you seen it? Because the logic would be pretty much reversed. In 8th they didn't bring many/none CP because they had low tax. Logically the less tax, higher price it would be in 9th then.

Your statement goes against logic and makes brigades/battallions die pretty badly except as solo free one. Would be very illogical and unbalanced. Then again that does sound what GW would do...

No need to be so aggressive & I’m not sure I follow what you’re saying - do you mean it would punish dual battalion or dual brigade more than say battalion & spearhead? Well yeah it would. But I’m not sure who is taking dual battalion now though when they can take a brigade and I’m not sure who is going to want to take a dual brigade at all so the issue is kind of moot. Not going to happen. What we will see is, for example, brigade & spearhead or patrol & vanguard, and those will cost CPs.

Plus I can only go off what I’ve seen and been told and it’s up to you to listen to me or not. I’m not stating my source but he also told me about overwatch, fall back, & character changes so I dunno... I think I’ll believe him until I see otherwise. Now it might not be the full picture etc etc so like everything right now take it with a pinch of salt.

Double or even triple battalion has been a thing for Orks, Genestealer Cult, and Space Marines. Brigades have been super rare except for Astra Militarum...remember that you have mandatory Fast Attack, Elite, and Heavy Support choices in a brigade so it’s not as simple as “double battalion -> brigade”.
I’m curious to see if our troops remain a tax with the smaller boards and new missions. And a lot is going to depend on points values.

Question for you all.
The Shield-Captain Commander traits, those are rules layered on top of whatever warlord traits a model has, correct? Or do they need to go on a non-warlord?

Yeah I played against double & triple battalions a lot, I even ran double battalion Custodes myself a few times. Double or triple battalion was done for CPs though and that’s all changed now. I’m just not sure why you’d need or ever take a double battalion now with the CP changes and points going up. Anyway, they are the changes. I’m designing lists at 1700 right now to buffer the points increases.

Captain Commander trait is in addition to Warlord so have fun with them. There’s some cool combos with CC, WLT and relics depending on what you want your SC to do.

From what I understand our infantry wont be increased in cost by too much, but our vehicles will likely go up a bit.

Im personally expecting 250 for the Caladius with autocannon for example.

Atm im building lists in the 1650 range to accommodate for the changes.

I expect the Telemon will be close to 350 with storm cannons, 300 with firsts, and the Aquillons will be about 90ppm depending, which puts them close to bike cost.

Hey all,

I did an in-depth review of the Custodes rules with CanHammer's Darren Tse. If you're interested, feel free to check out the article below:

https://www.grimdarkfilthycasuals.com/adeptus-custodes-war-of-the-spider-review-stay-gold-pony-boys-and-nulls/

All biker lists will be pretty strong at the start of 9th actually.

Solar watch outrider

2x dawneagle captain. Warlord with unstoppable destroyer and auric aquillus, other captain with eagles eye and extra warlord trait

2 squads of 5 bikes

1 pallas

1 vexilla magnifica with relic spear.

might be able to squeeze in a calidius grav tank as well depending on points adjustments.



Very strong list with new strats. you can advance and shoot your bolters with one unit. you can prevent rerolls againgst one unit to keep them alive. You can give -1 to wound againgst high strength shooting.


I don't have 12 bikes but im sure a few of you do.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
All biker lists will be pretty strong at the start of 9th actually.

Solar watch outrider

2x dawneagle captain. Warlord with unstoppable destroyer and auric aquillus, other captain with eagles eye and extra warlord trait

2 squads of 5 bikes

1 pallas

1 vexilla magnifica with relic spear.



Very strong list with new strats. you can advance and shoot your bolters with one unit. you can prevent rerolls againgst one unit to keep them alive. You can give -1 to wound againgst high strength shooting.


I don't have 12 bikes but im sure a few of you do.

Pfffft. Not taking 20 bikes in a list. Weak

 Eihnlazer wrote:
All biker lists will be pretty strong at the start of 9th actually.

Solar watch outrider

2x dawneagle captain. Warlord with unstoppable destroyer and auric aquillus, other captain with eagles eye and extra warlord trait

2 squads of 5 bikes

1 pallas

1 vexilla magnifica with relic spear.

might be able to squeeze in a calidius grav tank as well depending on points adjustments.



Very strong list with new strats. you can advance and shoot your bolters with one unit. you can prevent rerolls againgst one unit to keep them alive. You can give -1 to wound againgst high strength shooting.


I don't have 12 bikes but im sure a few of you do.

Why would it be a strong list? You can't charge with the bikes after advancing them. It has no anti tank shooting... and we will probably see a lot of tanks in 9th.

 nordsturmking wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
All biker lists will be pretty strong at the start of 9th actually.

Solar watch outrider

2x dawneagle captain. Warlord with unstoppable destroyer and auric aquillus, other captain with eagles eye and extra warlord trait

2 squads of 5 bikes

1 pallas

1 vexilla magnifica with relic spear.

might be able to squeeze in a calidius grav tank as well depending on points adjustments.



Very strong list with new strats. you can advance and shoot your bolters with one unit. you can prevent rerolls againgst one unit to keep them alive. You can give -1 to wound againgst high strength shooting.


I don't have 12 bikes but im sure a few of you do.

Why would it be a strong list? You can't charge with the bikes after advancing them. It has no anti tank shooting... and we will probably see a lot of tanks in 9th.

It kills tanks in melee, not shooting. The board is dramatically smaller too so you should be able to get into melee much more easily, especially with our new protective stratagems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Question for you all.
The Shield-Captain Commander traits, those are rules layered on top of whatever warlord traits a model has, correct? Or do they need to go on a non-warlord?

No one answered you!

They can go on the warlord, yeah.

Knight lists still blow bike lists off the table. Also with Baneblades shooting in Melee for possibly max hits you better get some anti-tank or a bigger spear because they will auto-delete bikes at will.

Like everyone has said, vehicles are now going to be stupid popular. If you aren't running telemons in your lists I don't see how you are taking down T8+ vehicles and surviving to the end of the game.

Canhammer just did an interview with Brian Pullen, and they said Custodes just became Top tier overnight due to the new rules and how they affect us. Good to hear. Now can we please make the Venerable Contemptor's fist flat 4d?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Knight lists still blow bike lists off the table. Also with Baneblades shooting in Melee for possibly max hits you better get some anti-tank or a bigger spear because they will auto-delete bikes at will.

Like everyone has said, vehicles are now going to be stupid popular. If you aren't running telemons in your lists I don't see how you are taking down T8+ vehicles and surviving to the end of the game.

Canhammer just did an interview with Brian Pullen, and they said Custodes just became Top tier overnight due to the new rules and how they affect us. Good to hear. Now can we please make the Venerable Contemptor's fist flat 4d?

An Avenger Gatling Cannon, with no mods from anyone in play, averages a single Jetbike per turn. Assuming you have 3 Knights and 3 of those to deal with, that's 3 Jetbikes. If you're in cover (just +1 to Armor Save) it only averages 2.67 wounds, so now you're just down 2 Jetbikes. If you gain benefit from Dense Cover or from the Vexilla Magnifica, the average is a flat 2 wounds so still just 2 Jetbikes down.

(Note: I use the AGC here because most people list it as the most efficient Jetbike killer, other guns should do worse).

With the smaller board size and the plethora of Hurricane Bolters you've brought, you're likely only out of charge range for one turn. Someone mentioned 1,650 as their base for list making now to account for potential price hikes. If you really went pure Jetbikes, HQ + Vexilla leaves you with enough points for 15 Jetbikes. Let's see what hits the Knights.

We'll use 3 Knight Crusaders as our estimate here and we'll guess they're all the Battlecannon/AGC variety with Ironstorm Missile Pods (TAC tournament loadout unless you're Chaos, then you might get two-AGC's or switch the Battlecannons to Thermals).

As we said with the AGC, we lose 1 Jetbike and another is down to half. 14.5 Jetbikes remaining.

For the Battlecannons, you have three squads of 5 Jetbikes so there is no bonus to shooting them. All three Battlecannons combined average 2.33 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining. (If we use our -1 to Wound strat on one of the guns the average drops below 2 and there is a chance we don't lose any Jetbikes, though the Knight player also has a strat to make one Battlecannon do a flat 3 damage to compensate).

The Ironstorm Missile Pods, combined, average .88 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining.

So now you're in charge range. What does a squad of 5 Jetbikes look like in melee with a Shield-Captain?

22.5 damage on average. You're 1.5 off from finishing the Knight and that's a small enough window you should be able to get it up with your Warlord/Great-Commander/Relic or whatever. The remaining 9 Jetbikes should be able to kill a second Knight (27.78 damage average without a Shield-Captain's re-roll 1's).

There ARE lists that can give all Jetbike lists problems. Knight lists aren't really one of them unless you're not positioning well and getting charged by the Knight yourself (because those feet will shred you). This was all without flashy toys too, which open a lot of options for us.

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Knight lists still blow bike lists off the table. Also with Baneblades shooting in Melee for possibly max hits you better get some anti-tank or a bigger spear because they will auto-delete bikes at will.

Like everyone has said, vehicles are now going to be stupid popular. If you aren't running telemons in your lists I don't see how you are taking down T8+ vehicles and surviving to the end of the game.

Canhammer just did an interview with Brian Pullen, and they said Custodes just became Top tier overnight due to the new rules and how they affect us. Good to hear. Now can we please make the Venerable Contemptor's fist flat 4d?

An Avenger Gatling Cannon, with no mods from anyone in play, averages a single Jetbike per turn. Assuming you have 3 Knights and 3 of those to deal with, that's 3 Jetbikes. If you're in cover (just +1 to Armor Save) it only averages 2.67 wounds, so now you're just down 2 Jetbikes. If you gain benefit from Dense Cover or from the Vexilla Magnifica, the average is a flat 2 wounds so still just 2 Jetbikes down.

(Note: I use the AGC here because most people list it as the most efficient Jetbike killer, other guns should do worse).

With the smaller board size and the plethora of Hurricane Bolters you've brought, you're likely only out of charge range for one turn. Someone mentioned 1,650 as their base for list making now to account for potential price hikes. If you really went pure Jetbikes, HQ + Vexilla leaves you with enough points for 15 Jetbikes. Let's see what hits the Knights.

We'll use 3 Knight Crusaders as our estimate here and we'll guess they're all the Battlecannon/AGC variety with Ironstorm Missile Pods (TAC tournament loadout unless you're Chaos, then you might get two-AGC's or switch the Battlecannons to Thermals).

As we said with the AGC, we lose 1 Jetbike and another is down to half. 14.5 Jetbikes remaining.

For the Battlecannons, you have three squads of 5 Jetbikes so there is no bonus to shooting them. All three Battlecannons combined average 2.33 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining. (If we use our -1 to Wound strat on one of the guns the average drops below 2 and there is a chance we don't lose any Jetbikes, though the Knight player also has a strat to make one Battlecannon do a flat 3 damage to compensate).

The Ironstorm Missile Pods, combined, average .88 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining.

So now you're in charge range. What does a squad of 5 Jetbikes look like in melee with a Shield-Captain?

22.5 damage on average. You're 1.5 off from finishing the Knight and that's a small enough window you should be able to get it up with your Warlord/Great-Commander/Relic or whatever. The remaining 9 Jetbikes should be able to kill a second Knight (27.78 damage average without a Shield-Captain's re-roll 1's).

There ARE lists that can give all Jetbike lists problems. Knight lists aren't really one of them unless you're not positioning well and getting charged by the Knight yourself (because those feet will shred you). This was all without flashy toys too, which open a lot of options for us.

Are you compering
15*90=1620 156 bikes
1*160=160 SC on bike
1*109 =109 vexilla
=> 1620+160+109 = 1889

to 3*494=1482

thats 407 points difference... and no strats for the Knights?

 nordsturmking wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Knight lists still blow bike lists off the table. Also with Baneblades shooting in Melee for possibly max hits you better get some anti-tank or a bigger spear because they will auto-delete bikes at will.

Like everyone has said, vehicles are now going to be stupid popular. If you aren't running telemons in your lists I don't see how you are taking down T8+ vehicles and surviving to the end of the game.

Canhammer just did an interview with Brian Pullen, and they said Custodes just became Top tier overnight due to the new rules and how they affect us. Good to hear. Now can we please make the Venerable Contemptor's fist flat 4d?

An Avenger Gatling Cannon, with no mods from anyone in play, averages a single Jetbike per turn. Assuming you have 3 Knights and 3 of those to deal with, that's 3 Jetbikes. If you're in cover (just +1 to Armor Save) it only averages 2.67 wounds, so now you're just down 2 Jetbikes. If you gain benefit from Dense Cover or from the Vexilla Magnifica, the average is a flat 2 wounds so still just 2 Jetbikes down.

(Note: I use the AGC here because most people list it as the most efficient Jetbike killer, other guns should do worse).

With the smaller board size and the plethora of Hurricane Bolters you've brought, you're likely only out of charge range for one turn. Someone mentioned 1,650 as their base for list making now to account for potential price hikes. If you really went pure Jetbikes, HQ + Vexilla leaves you with enough points for 15 Jetbikes. Let's see what hits the Knights.

We'll use 3 Knight Crusaders as our estimate here and we'll guess they're all the Battlecannon/AGC variety with Ironstorm Missile Pods (TAC tournament loadout unless you're Chaos, then you might get two-AGC's or switch the Battlecannons to Thermals).

As we said with the AGC, we lose 1 Jetbike and another is down to half. 14.5 Jetbikes remaining.

For the Battlecannons, you have three squads of 5 Jetbikes so there is no bonus to shooting them. All three Battlecannons combined average 2.33 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining. (If we use our -1 to Wound strat on one of the guns the average drops below 2 and there is a chance we don't lose any Jetbikes, though the Knight player also has a strat to make one Battlecannon do a flat 3 damage to compensate).

The Ironstorm Missile Pods, combined, average .88 wounds. 14 Jetbikes remaining.

So now you're in charge range. What does a squad of 5 Jetbikes look like in melee with a Shield-Captain?

22.5 damage on average. You're 1.5 off from finishing the Knight and that's a small enough window you should be able to get it up with your Warlord/Great-Commander/Relic or whatever. The remaining 9 Jetbikes should be able to kill a second Knight (27.78 damage average without a Shield-Captain's re-roll 1's).

There ARE lists that can give all Jetbike lists problems. Knight lists aren't really one of them unless you're not positioning well and getting charged by the Knight yourself (because those feet will shred you). This was all without flashy toys too, which open a lot of options for us.

Are you compering
15*90=1620 156 bikes
1*160=160 SC on bike
1*109 =109 vexilla
=> 1620+160+109 = 1889

to 3*494=1482

thats 407 points difference... and no strats for the Knights?

1. I didn't use strats for the Custodes OR the Knights. I think strats tilt it farther in the Custodes favor since we have many more ways to protect ourselves now than they do to increase damage.

2. I wasn't really doing 'list vs. list', I was refuting the point that an all Knights list (typically 3 Knights and some chaff, maybe an armiger or two) will crush an all Jetbike list. And I used 1,650 points. 160 + 109 leaves 1381 left over. 1381 divided by 90 is 15.34 (repeating). Three Crusaders leaves the Knights list with 168 points left over for a Guard detachment as chaff (which will be obliterated by the Hurricane Bolters).