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stratigo wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl

Having watched a number of games with the Telemon in fist and gun config, double storm. You don’t get to use the fist enough and the cannons provide a good, consistent, and, most importantly, and extremely hard to removed ranged threat in an army that only has a handful of those.

Agreed, a Telemon trying to get into melee is just another thing which will be screened out by your enemy. Rather have your infantry carving their way through to capture objectives while Telemons knock out the enemy guns and sit on the backfield objectives.

 nordsturmking wrote:
The first list i will test is this:

Dread host

Trajann 190
biker SC (salvo, WL, strategic mastermind, emperor's companion, Auric Aquilis ) 175
termi SC (axe, superior creation, Eagle's eye ) 115
5 Allarus (4 axes 1 spear) 345
Caladius (balze) 225
Caladius (balze) 225
Telemon( fist,storm ) 295
Ares 430

that's 2000p

The Telemon is going to the middel of the board or somewhere near it in cover.Tanks in the back field with Trajann Allarus and Termin cap. are going to deep strike and use Golden light of the Moiraides. I will try to DS within 12" of an enemy character so i can shoot it and then charge in with 78% chance (including CP reroll) of making it.
I am pretty sure hordes are dead with all the nerfs to them. And i think we will see a LOT of vehicles thats why i focus on anti tank shooting.

any thoughts?

Seems exceptionally killy, but I think it's really going to struggle to hold any objectives/play the mission, especially when you only really have a single telemon to hold any ground in the centre. And if you end up with a mission where you have to carry out 'actions' then you'd be in a lot of trouble- sacrificing any shooting here would be a deathwish.

Although, maybe if you can exterminate their army (which will be made easier if it is hinged around a few units/characters) you'll be able to spread out and mop up points after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartacus wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
so whats the opinion on the best loadout for the telemon now? twin storm still? or does the cheapness of the culverins make them any better. I do own two magnetised fists, might be fun to give that a whirl

Having watched a number of games with the Telemon in fist and gun config, double storm. You don’t get to use the fist enough and the cannons provide a good, consistent, and, most importantly, and extremely hard to removed ranged threat in an army that only has a handful of those.

Agreed, a Telemon trying to get into melee is just another thing which will be screened out by your enemy. Rather have your infantry carving their way through to capture objectives while Telemons knock out the enemy guns and sit on the backfield objectives.

Might as well give both a go really. If taken with double guns it is much more sensible to sit backfield, so I might try gun/fist if I need to hold middle ground in some games.
I need to try a deepstriking dual fist though, even if it sucks

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
The first list i will test is this:

Dread host

Trajann 190
biker SC (salvo, WL, strategic mastermind, emperor's companion, Auric Aquilis ) 175
termi SC (axe, superior creation, Eagle's eye ) 115
5 Allarus (4 axes 1 spear) 345
Caladius (balze) 225
Caladius (balze) 225
Telemon( fist,storm ) 295
Ares 430

that's 2000p

The Telemon is going to the middel of the board or somewhere near it in cover.Tanks in the back field with Trajann Allarus and Termin cap. are going to deep strike and use Golden light of the Moiraides. I will try to DS within 12" of an enemy character so i can shoot it and then charge in with 78% chance (including CP reroll) of making it.
I am pretty sure hordes are dead with all the nerfs to them. And i think we will see a LOT of vehicles thats why i focus on anti tank shooting.

any thoughts?

Seems exceptionally killy, but I think it's really going to struggle to hold any objectives/play the mission, especially when you only really have a single telemon to hold any ground in the centre. And if you end up with a mission where you have to carry out 'actions' then you'd be in a lot of trouble- sacrificing any shooting here would be a deathwish.

Although, maybe if you can exterminate their army (which will be made easier if it is hinged around a few units/characters) you'll be able to spread out and mop up points after.

Yes the whole "action" thing could be a problem. But first we have to see the GT mission pack. I am curious how it all works if you need infantry and the the "action" is mendetory how will pure knights list handle that?

I am also thinking about taking a patrol(instead of the spearhead) with a small guardian unit with shields that would give me 3 more CP and good objective holders

Hordes have suffered, but screens have not.

If anyone's interested, we got our first 9th edition bat rep in with Custodes vs Orks. Below is the list I played.

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium – Adeptus Custodes) [106 PL, 1,850pts] ++

Configuration +
Shield Host: Shadowkeepers
HQ +
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor [8 PL, 111pts]: Castellan Axe
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 165pts]: Salvo Launcher, Warlord
. Auric Aquilis, Captain-Commander, Strategic Mastermind, Victor of the Blood Games
Troops +
Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 153pts] . Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
. Custodian: Guardian Spear

Custodian Guard Squad [8 PL, 150pts] . Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Guardian Spear
. Custodian: Sentinel Blade, Storm Shield
Elites +
Allarus Custodians [28 PL, 426pts] . Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe
. Allarus Custodian: Castellan Axe

Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 123pts]: Misericordia, Storm Shield, Vexilla Magnifica
Fast Attack +
Vertus Praetors [25 PL, 450pts] . Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
. Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter

Heavy Support +
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought [14 PL, 272pts]: Arachnus Storm Cannon, Spiculus Bolt Launcher
. Telemon Caestus: Twin Plasma Projector, Eternal Penitent

++ Total: [106 PL, 1,850pts] ++

Hope y'all enjoy!

https://youtu.be/otXypCEXaho

 wannabmoy wrote:
If anyone's interested, we got our first 9th edition bat rep in with Custodes vs Orks. Below is the list I played.

<Snip>

I would drop the 6th termi. 6 feels like a really bad number this edition. Your enabling Blast and more difficult Coherency for minimal upside.

 Ordana wrote:

 wannabmoy wrote:
If anyone's interested, we got our first 9th edition bat rep in with Custodes vs Orks. Below is the list I played.

<Snip>

I would drop the 6th termi. 6 feels like a really bad number this edition. Your enabling Blast and more difficult Coherency for minimal upside.

6 is fine for allarus termies. Indeed you can push it to 8 or even 10 for CP efficiency. The unit and base size isn't that unwieldy. Aquillons, with their massive bases, might be a bit more awkward at 6.

Custodes terminaters are not dying to 3 shots of any blast weapon in the game.

So being new to Custodes (I only got my models a couple of weeks ago) I was pleasantly surprised with the light touch they got with the points changes.

I've put together a rough list to start with and would appreciate some feedback.

One caveat, I got into custodes as they are a small force and that they are cheap to purchase, please don't suggest I go out and buy forgeworld versions of everything. I know they are likely better on the table but I like the cheapness of the plastic (as does my wife) I may get a centrepiece dread from FW in the future (have my eye on the Achillus) but for now I'm sticking to the GW plastic line.


Captain-General Trajann Valoris
Shield Cap On Jetbike Hurricane, Mis
Vexilus Praetor Shield, Mis, Magnifica
6 Allarus 3x Axe, 3x Spear
3 Vertus 3 Salvo
4 Guard 3x Spear, 1x Sword/Shield
4 Guard 3x Spear, 1x Sword/Shield
5 Guard 2x Spear, 3x Sword/Shield, 1x Mis
Rhino Storm Bolter
5 Prosecutors

Total 1999pts

The sisters are in there as I own them and what I had brought came in as less points than expected.

I've magnetised the Allarus so I can use one as a SC or Vexilla, I can also swap out the weapons on some of them.

I've assumbled the Guard looking to the future of better stormshields.

My base idea is for TV and the vexilla to move to the centre of the board and claim an objective with the larger guard squad. The Bikes take a flank and shoot up some tanks whilst the SC on bike goes for the throat as I'll power him up with pregame stuff to make him unpleasant to kill. The Allarus come in turn two and target a characters then go for a charge (I'll be going dreadhost for the 3D6). The other Guard units move for objectives whilst the sisters sit back or push forward depending on what psykers my opponents have.

I might be wrong on this, but what are your opinions about custodes after the point changes and meta chasers? It seems to me that, with the golden boys shaping up to be the new hotness in 9th, there are quite a lot of people jumping on the golden bandwagon.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, though it might be harder to get some FW stuff if suddenly everyone wants a telemon or two.

Tiberias wrote:
I might be wrong on this, but what are your opinions about custodes after the point changes and meta chasers? It seems to me that, with the golden boys shaping up to be the new hotness in 9th, there are quite a lot of people jumping on the golden bandwagon.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, though it might be harder to get some FW stuff if suddenly everyone wants a telemon or two.

Harder to get a telemon? Man the allarus have been sold out on the webstore for like a week .

Custodes are, I'd say, a top 3 faction. I think there's a few that still play really well into us (Grey knights actually comes to mind.), as custodes don't have a huge amount of depth in the model line. But custodes play fantastically to the objectives of the new edition tween the extra toughness we gained from strategems and more CP and full obsec. It will be extremely difficult to hold an objective against a custodes assault, especially with any obec units. And once on an objective, it takes real, concerted effort to push custodes off of one. Indeed, terminators are almost immune to being destroyed for about 2 turns until you've burned out of CP, and you can score, easily, 30 points on the primary, in those two turns.

Tiberias wrote:
It seems to me that, with the golden boys shaping up to be the new hotness in 9th, there are quite a lot of people jumping on the golden bandwagon

Tbh that happens with everything- competitive board games, card games, sports teams, cellphone brands etc.

though it might be harder to get some FW stuff if suddenly everyone wants a telemon or two.

There are other better options for getting Telemons beside buying from Forge World if you get what I mean

Written a list that I'm going to give a spin against some CSM using the new rules tomorrow. results might be a little skewed because of lack of good terrain/board size (table is too thin- like 34x60- and will be using some very makeshift terrain

Decided to go with the shadowkeepers because 1) that's how my army is painted, and 2) I feel like the dread host strat won't be all so exceptionally useful as I'm using the vexilla homer(5CP for 2 charges is a little much tbh). only got 3 S&B guys because thats what was good last edition lol. Already did a vexilla swap to get an extra termie. Got two tooled up shield captains because why the hell not, so will start with 7CP (6 if bikes get deep struck, which is the intention)
That said:
Shadowkeepers patrol detachment

Bike captain w/salvo + mis 178
-warlord: lockwarden
-relic:auric aquilis
-captain commander: unstoppable destroyer
VotBG

Bike captain w/salvo + mis 178
-ten thousand heroes: superior creation
-open the vault: eagles eye

3 man guard squad, 2 S&B 158

3 man guard squad, 1 S&B 154

Vexilla with storm shield + mis 128
-vexilla imperius

6 allarus with axes

Telemon with fist and storm cannon 2̶6̶0̶ 295

5 vertus praetors, all hurricane+4mis. probably FGLTC in this game. will depend though. 475

1999




Very obvious idea here. A backfield guard squad to run around objectives, a bigger one to do the same/ push midboard. the captains will either stick with them t1, or try and hide/ hop on objectives.
Then the fun. big boy telemon pushing midboard with vexilla behind him. If hes about to come under heavy fire, pop half dmg/no rerolls and theres no point even shooting him anymore. then vexilla advances up front and down come 6 allarus and five bikes in your face t2 to destroyy some stuff.
After that one will see what happens. Before playing with it it seems pretty darn good, which I'm very happy about for my kinda limited collection.
One change I considered was dropping to a 5man guard squad for a 6th bike, but I like the utility of a couple units and it felt unnecessary to bulk out that unit any further

Please critique and give me ideas, this is of course my first list with the new pts. no major changes here, but I love the freedom of no 3x3 tax.

Custodes still have to contend with the ever growing might of the new Primaris forces, who get about a new release a month it seems. Custodes are still easily countered by the same things as before, mass high value shooting (Primaris) and Mass mortal wounds (GK/Chaos) I expect we will never see the IH levels of crazyness, where every tournament is 75% of some IH Variant. We may see a slight shine before GW steps in and says ok, We need to sell more eliminators/flavor of the month. Point being, my local game store still has a fully stocked Custodes section. The worst possible thing that could happen to our faction is for it to become the new "best in show".

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes still have to contend with the ever growing might of the new Primaris forces, who get about a new release a month it seems. Custodes are still easily countered by the same things as before, mass high value shooting (Primaris) and Mass mortal wounds (GK/Chaos) I expect we will never see the IH levels of crazyness, where every tournament is 75% of some IH Variant. We may see a slight shine before GW steps in and says ok, We need to sell more eliminators/flavor of the month. Point being, my local game store still has a fully stocked Custodes section. The worst possible thing that could happen to our faction is for it to become the new "best in show".

Custodes are vastly less vulnerable to mass shooting now.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:



Telemon with fist and storm cannon 260 (260!!! fists sure went wayyy down)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Telemon is 295 points
200 base, Arachnus Storm Cannon 40, 1 Fist 30, Plasma Projector 15, Spiculus 10

Balerion wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:



Telemon with fist and storm cannon 260 (260!!! fists sure went wayyy down)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Telemon is 295 points
200 base, Arachnus Storm Cannon 40, 1 Fist 30, Plasma Projector 15, Spiculus 10

I wouldn't have been surprised at this at all.

From a check back to the spreadsheet posted a couple pages back, it seems I'm not wrong

Telemon 200 base, arachnus 40, spiculus 10, caestus is 10 for single, plasma is 0. 260.

It'd make sense to me if this is an error, feels wrong to have a telemon that low points. We will see when CA is fully released.

Edit: Just realised that it is 0 for a pair of fists. 0!!! And twin plasma projectors are also 0. That means we can (supposedly) run a full telemon dreadnought for 210 points. That's pretty crazy to me.
I wonder how two double fist, CP upgraded dreads deep striking would fare..... Enticing.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

Balerion wrote:

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:



Telemon with fist and storm cannon 260 (260!!! fists sure went wayyy down)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Telemon is 295 points
200 base, Arachnus Storm Cannon 40, 1 Fist 30, Plasma Projector 15, Spiculus 10
This is correct.

I wouldn't have been surprised at this at all.

From a check back to the spreadsheet posted a couple pages back, it seems I'm not wrong

Telemon 200 base, arachnus 40, spiculus 10, caestus is 10 for single, plasma is 0. 260.

It'd make sense to me if this is an error, feels wrong to have a telemon that low points. We will see when CA is fully released.

Edit: Just realised that it is 0 for a pair of fists. 0!!! And twin plasma projectors are also 0. That means we can (supposedly) run a full telemon dreadnought for 210 points. That's pretty crazy to me.
I wonder how two double fist, CP upgraded dreads deep striking would fare..... Enticing.

The "changes" section showed the difference in points from old to new. I renamed it to "difference" to make it more clear.
The fist went from 20p for 1 to 30p for 1 and from 30 for 2 to 40 for 2. The plasma projector was never free.
Sorry i had an error in the spread sheet. I uploaded a new version.

GT missions from CA 2020
Got them from Canhammer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F_umLpAUBHpvkHB6Mk8Nbq-qhKUkuVVJ/view?fbclid=IwAR2KDjw8Nm9DfKoHW4rD09DXnG1VEAVyVceDPvNsrHdtrINsLApIDs8QAzA

 nordsturmking wrote:

<snip>

Ah. Yes, I see, that is me being very stupid. oops. I will edit my list accordingly.

So while I was 30 points or so over, the game went very well (around 80-20).

A couple things of note that I found: the teleport homer is fantastic as always, coming down so close to their lines is just filthy.
The telemon is far less tanky than I first thought, even with the stratagem to half dmg, getting wiped t1 . however I did deliberately position it so it would be the only feasible thing to shoot at from a full CSM list.
Axes are still great. Allarus in general are very very nice. however a squad of 6 means they have to pretty much be in base contact with each other when they come down due to new coherency, which restricts things a little bit.
Choosing the right secondaries is very very important. I chose better than my opponent, who scored very few pts from his.
Finally, it somewhat feels like our game is won in the movement phase- very careful positioning to maximise objective grabbing and area denial is so much more important than killing loads of models.
edit(s)-getting quoted text wrong haha

Played my first game with custodes today vs a shooty ork list.

My take aways after one game: dawn these boys are tough! Didn't lose any full squads, between defensive straps, vexilla and good amounts of terrain I was aways able to put my units in a position to survive and hold.

Firepower wise I need more ranged anti vehicle, three salvo launchers was not enough (to the surprise of noone). Thinking a dread will be joining the list.

The bikes and bike captain were great, would like an additional one to get them up to 4. There movement and firepower were key.

Allurus were total boss, just an anvil the the opponent broke himself against.

Really please.so far but it was a good match up that played to my strengths. Admech next week...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes still have to contend with the ever growing might of the new Primaris forces, who get about a new release a month it seems. Custodes are still easily countered by the same things as before, mass high value shooting (Primaris) and Mass mortal wounds (GK/Chaos) I expect we will never see the IH levels of crazyness, where every tournament is 75% of some IH Variant. We may see a slight shine before GW steps in and says ok, We need to sell more eliminators/flavor of the month. Point being, my local game store still has a fully stocked Custodes section. The worst possible thing that could happen to our faction is for it to become the new "best in show".

In what may be another sign of the Apocalypse, I kind of agree with Fezzik. I think a lot of the threats that menaced Custodes before are still there and while I agree with the play tester reviews and positive feedback I wouldn’t be surprised if we weren’t quite as good as everyone says.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes still have to contend with the ever growing might of the new Primaris forces, who get about a new release a month it seems. Custodes are still easily countered by the same things as before, mass high value shooting (Primaris) and Mass mortal wounds (GK/Chaos) I expect we will never see the IH levels of crazyness, where every tournament is 75% of some IH Variant. We may see a slight shine before GW steps in and says ok, We need to sell more eliminators/flavor of the month. Point being, my local game store still has a fully stocked Custodes section. The worst possible thing that could happen to our faction is for it to become the new "best in show".

In what may be another sign of the Apocalypse, I kind of agree with Fezzik. I think a lot of the threats that menaced Custodes before are still there and while I agree with the play tester reviews and positive feedback I wouldn’t be surprised if we weren’t quite as good as everyone says.

Which is a good thing on my opinion. I don't want our boys to be too dominant in 9th. For if we were, we would be the target of the pitchfork wielding mob that hates primaris right now (which would be annoying enough) and we'd probably be hit by an early FAQ that would take us down a notch.
Though I still believe that our greatly improved toughness through new strats and more CP will make us one of the top 5 factions in 9th until new codices are released.
If say, dark Eldar get the first codex release in 9th, their new rules could make them utterly dominant, until the next faction gets their 9th Ed codex an is going to be the new hotness.
So enjoy our spot in the limelight, for it will probably be brief enough.

Oh and everybody seems to forget that the updated forgeworld indexes are still to be released. These updated could provide us with an additional small powerspike, or even be a small nerf, based on the nature of the changes.
The telemon for example has found his way in to most new lists in 9th, because he can act as an incredibly tough anvil for the opponent to break himself against. Now if they were to nerf his weapons or rules in the new FW indexes, this would also hit us quite a bit, wouldn't be the end of the world by any stretch, but it would still sting.

Have people been finding the Dread Host to be effective outside of Terminator-focused lists?

I'm really liking Solar Watch a lot more than I thought I would, currently running:

Solar watch and shadowkeepers are the only 2 hosts i'd run if I was going bike heavy.


Insane mobility or extra durability.

People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.

Easy solution is just run two different flags.

Spartacus wrote:
People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.

You say it like it wasn't a thing in 8th edition. People are "wise" to it for a long time, yet it's still the most reliant deepstrike option for Custodes. If you feel lucky, Dread Host might work out. But I think DH is a trap. If you want a reliable deepstrike, you still need the vexilla, especially now with the smaller board, when it's easier to screen out regular 9" ds. I think it'll be the other way around. After the initial hype for DH, people will abandon it for the other shield hosts, after getting burned by the "3d6" charge.

Balerion wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.

You say it like it wasn't a thing in 8th edition. People are "wise" to it for a long time, yet it's still the most reliant deepstrike option for Custodes. If you feel lucky, Dread Host might work out. But I think DH is a trap. If you want a reliable deepstrike, you still need the vexilla, especially now with the smaller board, when it's easier to screen out regular 9" ds. I think it'll be the other way around. After the initial hype for DH, people will abandon it for the other shield hosts, after getting burned by the "3d6" charge.

The odds of failing all three charges are very small I think. Even without re-rolls each charge has something like a 52% chance of success, individually. With a CP re-roll on one, you've got consistent odds I think.

I believe the trap may be in trying to use it to get one unit in. That's when it could let you down. You need three units that are all worth getting into melee.

Basically, Dread host is telling your opponent that your entire hope of victory is tied to one unit. There is no subtlety either. This is my lynch pin, and I am hoping you can't take it down by turn 3. The others are much more adept at keeping your opponent guessing and on the back foot.

Audustum wrote:

Balerion wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
People will start getting wise to the Teleport homer + terminator bomb tactic. It's pretty easy to predict where the vexilla is going and just drop a cheap screen in front of him which stumps him for next turn, I've seen it happen already. I wonder if we might see a resurgence of Dread Host as a result once the meta has established. It's nice to have the strat in your back pocket so that your opponent is forced to cover all sides again with his screens, not just where your vexilla is.

You say it like it wasn't a thing in 8th edition. People are "wise" to it for a long time, yet it's still the most reliant deepstrike option for Custodes. If you feel lucky, Dread Host might work out. But I think DH is a trap. If you want a reliable deepstrike, you still need the vexilla, especially now with the smaller board, when it's easier to screen out regular 9" ds. I think it'll be the other way around. After the initial hype for DH, people will abandon it for the other shield hosts, after getting burned by the "3d6" charge.

The odds of failing all three charges are very small I think. Even without re-rolls each charge has something like a 52% chance of success, individually. With a CP re-roll on one, you've got consistent odds I think.

I believe the trap may be in trying to use it to get one unit in. That's when it could let you down. You need three units that are all worth getting into melee.

With the re-roll, your chance is around 75% with DH. So on average, even the re-rolled charges you fail every 4th charge. If you are fine with these odds, when as a custodes you have so few units in the game and every failed charge tends to be a big problem, then go for it. Without re-roll, you have, as you say, around 50/50 chance to get it. I hope you don't fail your most important charge then...

I think we all wanted more reliable charges from PA and that's why we got all excited about DH. But it's a trick. I don't trust the odds after trying it in my last game of 8th a month ago. Even Emissaries I think might see more play at the tournaments than DH I believe.