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2020/08/28 06:25:42
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
New units don't need to be mentioned in the fluff befor they come out. Almost all of the primaris stuff was never mentioned in the fluff befor release.
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
ObSec is critically important and you want tons of it. Not only does it score/deny primaries, but it does things like burn down Raise the Banners flags and open the door to scoring stuff like Domination consistently.
I know how important ObSec is but guards are not good enough in my opinion to be included in my next tournament list. The last tournament i played was in 8th.
Spartacus wrote:
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
How are you managing to get 2 obsec models? Bearing in mind that all Custodes infantry and bikes get it, including characters. Unless you're taking all vehicles or something?
It's terribly important. I'm convinced that Custodes are the strongest objective holders in the game all things considered, but that only goes for infantry and bikes who have the strats and obsec to be tough and scrappy in close quarters (the heroic intervene strat is particularly good to prevent enemies stealing your objectives).
Yeah i know everything has obsec except for vehicels. IMO Custodes are good at holding objectives but are not the best at it we just have to few models.
I was thinking about a list like this
Back to the main topic. I am thinking about tournament list with only two obsec models but i am not sure if that is enough. If both players have obsec the only thing that matters is the number of models and we are almost allways outnumbered. what are your thoughts and experiences.
How are you managing to get 2 obsec models? Bearing in mind that all Custodes infantry and bikes get it, including characters. Unless you're taking all vehicles or something?
It's terribly important. I'm convinced that Custodes are the strongest objective holders in the game all things considered, but that only goes for infantry and bikes who have the strats and obsec to be tough and scrappy in close quarters (the heroic intervene strat is particularly good to prevent enemies stealing your objectives).
Yeah- how do you write such a list in custodes? is it all vehicles?
If so, the all vehicle lists that shined last edition really really do not now. objectives are far far more important and as custodes we play them very well.
I thought going into 9th that the lack of 3x3 battalion tax was a blessing, but I've quickly gone back to using 3x3 guard, even more, to provide a backbone to the armies objective power.
I think you'd really struggle at a tournament with only 2 such models.
The thing is, i would include guardians but i can't justify 150+ points and have them to nothing other then stand on a marker. I think of it this way ii i have to have something on the maker it schould be able shoot other wise it is not doing anything.
Sterling191 wrote:Also keep in mind that vehicle only lists can give up multiple secondaries very, very easily. One of the biggest strengths of elite armies (and one that's generally underrated) is their capacity to construct lists in such a way that they only give up maybe half of a given secondary's value, not the full 15.
Preventing an opponent from scoring 25 points just by list construction is not something to take lightly.
I agree you could deny your opponent some points but more like 10 not 25. But i think i need to consider doing it.
Thanks for all the repleys
This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2020/08/28 18:27:07
2020/08/28 12:20:25
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I ran a list like that as an experiment, though instead of the ares I had a 4-man terminator squad. The list you have is also well over 2000 points, you’ll need to drop some stuff. Played against an admech list of breachers and almost tabled them. I don’t think takes full advantage of Custodes strats though.
I’ll be the contrarian here, obsec is nice but in my 3 games I haven’t seen it be all that important. YMMV, but most of the objective grabs happen by obsec units, which often outnumber ours. I think an obsec block of terminators to hold center objectives make sense, but my experience has been if I’m kicking a unit off an objective I’m killing it outright.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/08/28 12:58:02
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Triple telemon is not competitive. You can't support 3 with strats, and harlequins are a thing. Their range is an issue as well, unless your running their bad gun. If you want that type of list just play knights.
Every actually competitive list in 9th is going to have a termy blob, one or two telemons, and some other spattering of characters/troops that don't cost them cp (i.e. patrol or battalion).
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2020/08/28 20:12:41
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
The thing is, i would include guardians but i can't justify 150+ points and have them to nothing other then stand on a marker. I think of it this way ii i have to have something on the maker it schould be able shoot other wise it is not doing anything.
That's good logic but it doesn't always work that way. Yes you definitely want some units that can move to and sit on an objective to be armed with guns, but for the centre board objectives which are almost certainly going to be contested by your opponent, a unit like a Telemon or caladius will likely end up as a bit of a liability. You'll get charged by something cheap, tough/numerous and obsec and be unable to clear them which means you need to either fall back to finish them with shooting (and your unit does nothing), or charge in with another unit in support to help claim the objective, in which case your original unit wasn't a very good choice to take it in the first place. You'll also have almost no chance of having held that objective in your command phase because you would have needed to destroy the whole enemy squad in the fight phase (which Caladius tanks/Telemons can't do).
If that unit was a squad of shield guard or terminators on the other hand, you remove your opponents option to charge them and easily steal the objective. A squad can cut the enemy unit to bits when it charges in, and even if you don't wipe them out you'll probably still hold the objective at the start of your turn because of your multiple models + obsec. To push them off your opponent needs to commit a large investment of shooting and/or assault firepower which they don't always have the option to do depending on how the battle is going.
Infantry can also prevent an enemy from sneaking a few models onto the edge of an objective as well, either by the tanglefoot strat or the heroic intervene strat, both of which I have found to be so powerful when fighting over objectives.
Hopefully that all reads clearly , my experience with 9th so far is that you really need a split of shooty vehicles to hold rear objectives and do the damage from far away, and squads who can push onto the mid field and enemy held objectives to hold them without being swarmed.
2020/08/28 20:28:23
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Something to also consider with Vehicles is that an enemy doesn’t need to steal an objective to keep you from scoring. Simply charging a Rhino (or other cheap transport) into your single tank can null the objective. This can be the break point for Hold More while simultaneously denying your capacity to score simply by virtue of nulling the objective for a single turn.
With ObSec bodies, that can’t happen.
2020/08/28 21:39:47
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Yeah... telemons are seriously not killy enough for them to be the backbone of your force. They rely pretty heavily on using the defensive stratagems, otherwise with any dedicated AT fire they simply die.
Basic shield guard don't ostensibly bring a lot to the table when compared to a telemon or a caladius, but they provide so much utility and flexibility while also being a real bugger to shift off an objective.
the rule obsec itself is often not all that massively important, in my experience it is everything else they do that is the important bit- screen, move quickly, hide, stay on objectives and bring some real skirmishing power. (a unit of say 5 intercessors isnt going to want to get charged/charge you, they'll die in two rounds of combat)
And you say that 150+ points to do nothing isn't that favourable, but in my experience they don't impact what you kill, but how well you score.
I don't know how I feel about the ares, I've never seen it used. But I do feel like getting more boots on the ground and maybe running 1 telemon 2 caladius and/or a couple pallas would work far far better in a tournament setting. The playstyle of the mechastodes list of 8th is massively punished in how the game is played now.
But, maybe playing intelligently you can still do well. Give it a shot and report back I will be interested to see how you fare.
greyknight12 wrote: I ran a list like that as an experiment, though instead of the ares I had a 4-man terminator squad. The list you have is also well over 2000 points, you’ll need to drop some stuff. Played against an admech list of breachers and almost tabled them. I don’t think takes full advantage of Custodes strats though.
I’ll be the contrarian here, obsec is nice but in my 3 games I haven’t seen it be all that important. YMMV, but most of the objective grabs happen by obsec units, which often outnumber ours. I think an obsec block of terminators to hold center objectives make sense, but my experience has been if I’m kicking a unit off an objective I’m killing it outright.
All those lists are 2000 points. yup i think i will include a units of terminators for holding the midfield objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eihnlazer wrote: Triple telemon is not competitive. You can't support 3 with strats, and harlequins are a thing. Their range is an issue as well, unless your running their bad gun. If you want that type of list just play knights.
Every actually competitive list in 9th is going to have a termy blob, one or two telemons, and some other spattering of characters/troops that don't cost them cp (i.e. patrol or battalion).
The bad gun is the same as the caladius gun minus 12" range. It is very good for killing marines.
The thing is, i would include guardians but i can't justify 150+ points and have them to nothing other then stand on a marker. I think of it this way ii i have to have something on the maker it schould be able shoot other wise it is not doing anything.
That's good logic but it doesn't always work that way. Yes you definitely want some units that can move to and sit on an objective to be armed with guns, but for the centre board objectives which are almost certainly going to be contested by your opponent, a unit like a Telemon or caladius will likely end up as a bit of a liability. You'll get charged by something cheap, tough/numerous and obsec and be unable to clear them which means you need to either fall back to finish them with shooting (and your unit does nothing), or charge in with another unit in support to help claim the objective, in which case your original unit wasn't a very good choice to take it in the first place. You'll also have almost no chance of having held that objective in your command phase because you would have needed to destroy the whole enemy squad in the fight phase (which Caladius tanks/Telemons can't do).
If that unit was a squad of shield guard or terminators on the other hand, you remove your opponents option to charge them and easily steal the objective. A squad can cut the enemy unit to bits when it charges in, and even if you don't wipe them out you'll probably still hold the objective at the start of your turn because of your multiple models + obsec. To push them off your opponent needs to commit a large investment of shooting and/or assault firepower which they don't always have the option to do depending on how the battle is going.
Infantry can also prevent an enemy from sneaking a few models onto the edge of an objective as well, either by the tanglefoot strat or the heroic intervene strat, both of which I have found to be so powerful when fighting over objectives.
Hopefully that all reads clearly , my experience with 9th so far is that you really need a split of shooty vehicles to hold rear objectives and do the damage from far away, and squads who can push onto the mid field and enemy held objectives to hold them without being swarmed.
Thanks you made some good points. But the vehicles don't need to leave combat or the objective they can just shoot in combat and overwatch on 5+. You are right screening the table edges might be importet against some armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Yeah... telemons are seriously not killy enough for them to be the backbone of your force. They rely pretty heavily on using the defensive stratagems, otherwise with any dedicated AT fire they simply die.
Basic shield guard don't ostensibly bring a lot to the table when compared to a telemon or a caladius, but they provide so much utility and flexibility while also being a real bugger to shift off an objective.
the rule obsec itself is often not all that massively important, in my experience it is everything else they do that is the important bit- screen, move quickly, hide, stay on objectives and bring some real skirmishing power. (a unit of say 5 intercessors isnt going to want to get charged/charge you, they'll die in two rounds of combat)
And you say that 150+ points to do nothing isn't that favourable, but in my experience they don't impact what you kill, but how well you score.
I don't know how I feel about the ares, I've never seen it used. But I do feel like getting more boots on the ground and maybe running 1 telemon 2 caladius and/or a couple pallas would work far far better in a tournament setting. The playstyle of the mechastodes list of 8th is massively punished in how the game is played now.
But, maybe playing intelligently you can still do well. Give it a shot and report back I will be interested to see how you fare.
Telemon is as killy as a Caladius but 3 Telemon is probably to much. The problem is, with Eradicators everywhere the Caladius dies very fast. The ares is really great tougher than 2 Caladius and cheaper but more damage output. And those boms really clear inv. hordes like demons.
I will test a few lists one is this:
Trajann
SC on bike
3 guardians with shields
4 Aquilon with 4 mis.
vex
Telemon
Telemon
Ares
I could also swap one Telemon vor a fifth Aquilon and a Caladius.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/08/29 07:01:24
2020/08/29 13:51:31
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Thanks you made some good points. But the vehicles don't need to leave combat or the objective they can just shoot in combat and overwatch on 5+. You are right screening the table edges might be importet against some armies..
Here's the thing: against a delaying play that doesnt matter. Shutting down a Telemon or a Caladius for a single turn is worth the price of a Rhino (or equivalent cheap throwaway disruptor unit). Keeping the firepower from one of your very limited fire pieces from affecting the table for even a turn, while simultaneously denying you victory points, is a massive thing, and a trade skilled players are delighted to make.
2020/08/29 14:27:05
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Is there any chance that in the future Custodes might get a Super ObSec, where we control anything we are standing on? Is there a precedent for a unit with a rule like that in the past? Also, if we have some pretty large based land units, how many shields would it take to completely crowd an objective?
2020/08/29 19:26:50
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Is there any chance that in the future Custodes might get a Super ObSec, where we control anything we are standing on? Is there a precedent for a unit with a rule like that in the past? Also, if we have some pretty large based land units, how many shields would it take to completely crowd an objective?
The only thing that comes close is a 3cp strat that the Black Legion gets. It isnt "super ObSec", but it turns off enemy ObSec if an appropriate unit is on an objective.
As to whether Talons will get it? Not a chance. Theyre an army that already gets substantially better access to ObSec via their core army rules (any infantry or bike, regardless of FoC placement).
2020/08/31 06:07:40
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
Custodes need a plastic naught and tank that are not SM handmedowns
2020/08/31 11:25:58
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Eihnlazer wrote: We wont be getting any new FW models. The FW stuff we got is all for Horus Heresy converted to 40k and they arent gonna be making anything new for HH.
We could possibly get more options gear-wise from FW such as being able to take Solarite gauntlets on guardians but there wont be any new kits.
Custodes dont really have much more new stuff they could get.
There are units like Epherioa assassins', characters (such as valdor), and a possibly that our new codex will be Talons of The Emperor (so sisters wrapped into our dex).
I'd love a new plastic kit from GW but theres not much from the lore to support it. What we need is to gain access to a scout type unit of some type and a smaller flyer (i so wish we could put a custode piloting a xiphon for example).
Custodes need a plastic naught and tank that are not SM handmedowns
Please, no more elites slot choices....
I'd settle for a Plastic heavy tank/transport that isn't dog crap. Ala Venerable Impulsor/Repulsor Exectutioner. A solid T8 transport with a +++6 invuln stock.
2020/08/31 17:22:36
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Not going to lie, a single list in a vacuum like this does create more questions than answers. What was the opposition like? Aggregate Skill level? What were/was the missions? What did the match ups shake out to?
I'm guessing here, but the Rhinos were for grabbing objectives quickly and holding, or at least denying, the Ares/Terminators were for character slaying and monster killing on turn 2, possibly turn 1, and the tanks just provided long range killy dakka? I mean no clue here, but it scares me how prevelent the Ares is becoming. 4th list I've seen it in. Don't like our competitiveness tied to a giant air Gallant that costs more than the rest of the army combined? (500USD w/ S&H)
2020/08/31 19:05:53
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not going to lie, a single list in a vacuum like this does create more questions than answers. What was the opposition like? Aggregate Skill level? What were/was the missions? What did the match ups shake out to?
Opponents were Farsight Enclaves Tau (Brandon Brown), Harlequins (Ray Ahumada), Orks (Jeff Poole), and Chaos Space Marines (Richard Cozart, Loss). GT mission pack, skill level was high. From what I saw on the stream, it looked like most opponents chose to not kill the Ares or were incapable of doing so. My personal theory is that with Shadowkeepers it's just durable enough that people give up trying to kill the Ares, and since everyone has bought into "YoU hAvE To PlAy ThE oBjEcTiVeS" so hard no one (except Salamanders) is bringing enough firepower in their lists. I mean, the gold standard in 8th was "Can you drop a Knight in 1 turn?" and like you said Fezzik the Ares isn't that much more durable than one even with strat support.
Custodes got a lot of durability from PA, but I think it's being exaggerated right now cause no one is trying to kill anyone anymore. I think once more tournaments start up we're going to see a shift back to more "leafblower style" lists, though that's just my opinion.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/08/31 19:37:05
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I think it's hard to "catch" an ares, just like it's hard to catch a bike captain, and lock it down. You either shoot it out of the sky, or prey you can get a lucky combat phase. I just think it's a lot of points to basically tie into a gimmicky model that people are going to learn how to just shoot off the table in one turn. But by then, you may have dropped your troops and roasted a tank or two. But if you go second, and your opponent nails your big beautiful transport full of 1k of Terminators, you may have just lost turn 1. It's a risky strat, and if it pays off it's glorious, but people will spot it and prep for it. Hell, how many shots of full shooting would it take a Executioner to drop an Ares? Given all the strat support that Marines can muster?
I just want to see land raiders get buffed. Why does a Venerable Landraider cost almost the same as a Coronus?
Also, I wonder if an Orion wouldn't be a better Strategy now? Get in, drop elite murder squads, fly around and distract?
2020/09/01 02:14:15
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Very interesting list. There's no good way of scoring secondaries against it and it is very nicely killy. I like the inclusion of the two rhinos and sister squads, transports are really THAT GOOD.
Maybe I underrate the Ares. I need to see it in action I think. I'm interested he chose shadowkeepers here when he has 2 squads of termies. Would've thought dread host is nicer for double termie squads. Maybe he used vexilla homer twice per game?
Seems like it plays the objective really well despite the gigantic points sinks. I like it.
I reckon the Shadowkeepers strat Grim Resolve is pretty much a mandatory take for a list with an Ares, pop it every turn to drag that things life out as long as possible.
The battle reports I've seen with 2 units of termies either start with one on the board or even both depending on the board and opponent. Just barrel them up the middle. In trying 5 of each this weekend.
2020/09/01 11:08:56
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Is anyone else kinda amazed they are doing in person tournaments during a pandemic? I mean it boggles my mind. Unless the average unkempt table top gamer has suddenly become the Avatar of washed hands in the last 10 months, how is this happenening?
2020/09/01 12:30:04
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Is anyone else kinda amazed they are doing in person tournaments during a pandemic? I mean it boggles my mind. Unless the average unkempt table top gamer has suddenly become the Avatar of washed hands in the last 10 months, how is this happenening?
Not every country is the clusterfeth that is the United States.
2020/09/01 12:43:00
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
THe UK is loosening restrictions in ways that are questionable, for the same reasons only with less insanity that the US has been bumbling about in the pandemic.
2020/09/01 19:22:25
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Since I can't be bothered looking through 158 pages I'm gonna post my question here, sorry if it has been asked before.
I'm having trouble deciding on Allarus or Aquilons. I'll mostly go up against SM or DG.
Any suggestions?
Also since we mostly play 1k games I kinda expect being crushed by eradicators and bladeguard veterans etc so any tips for a good 1K list would be nice The one I'm thinking of is:
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian sword and board x3
Praetors with salvo launchers x3
Allarus x3 OR Aquilons with gauntlet + twin adrathic x3
thats over 900 pts already and only 10 dudes...
2020/09/01 19:39:32
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Totto wrote: Since I can't be bothered looking through 158 pages I'm gonna post my question here, sorry if it has been asked before.
I'm having trouble deciding on Allarus or Aquilons. I'll mostly go up against SM or DG.
Any suggestions?
Also since we mostly play 1k games I kinda expect being crushed by eradicators and bladeguard veterans etc so any tips for a good 1K list would be nice The one I'm thinking of is:
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian sword and board x3
Praetors with salvo launchers x3
Allarus x3 OR Aquilons with gauntlet + twin adrathic x3
thats over 900 pts already and only 10 dudes...
Aquilons are better unless you want to do character sniping. If you're going to try sniping, it won't help on the Death Guard since you're wounding on 5's. So my recommendation is the Aquilons.
Keep the Aquilons with Lastrum Bolters. You can use the 1CP strat from Psychic Awakening to double the shots.
Salvo Launchers can be useful sometimes, but with your list I'd recommend Hurricane Bolters. You're killing heavy armor in melee, not shooting. Use the Hurricane and Lstrum Bolters to clear anything in your path, then slam the rest.
Sword+Board and Jetbike Captain are good. Think about taking an Assassin or Inquisitor with your remaining points.
2020/09/02 18:46:44
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I've been thinking about bringing wardens to a friendly game, but even then they are just so lackluster compared to our other elite choices like allarus or aquilon. I just can't see a reason why you would run them right now.
What are your experiences with warden in 9th? Have any of you brought any warden recently? And what do you think would have to happen to make them viable again compared to our more superior options....a 5+++? More attacks?
2020/09/02 20:44:16
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Tiberias wrote: I've been thinking about bringing wardens to a friendly game, but even then they are just so lackluster compared to our other elite choices like allarus or aquilon. I just can't see a reason why you would run them right now.
What are your experiences with warden in 9th? Have any of you brought any warden recently? And what do you think would have to happen to make them viable again compared to our more superior options....a 5+++? More attacks?
5+++, 4W should do it if they don't already have 4W. I haven't used them in forever.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/02 20:45:45
2020/09/03 00:07:41
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Wardens have the cheapest 4 attack models in our line up, and are relatively good at horde fighting with their survivability. But in 8th, they were almost as good as Allarus, given the cost. now in 9th with the buffs and strats going mostly to Allarus and Aquilons, Wardens are kinda bottom tier now. Hopefully they get a further points decrease to put them more in line with good elite options. Or just move them out of Elite Slot entirely. We have waaay too many same style elites. Who would bother taking anything but terminators or our lesser Dreadnaughts.
Wardens have no business being on a table in their current state unless they are counts as.
2020/09/03 02:03:20
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
If wardens get a 5+++ right now and stay at their points cost, they'll be a fantastic unit and maybe be in contention with terminators. They could almost be seen as favourable/an alternative to guard squads as they get similar durability(depending on the weapon)+ are far more killy than base guard. A good take and hold unit.
Because right now terminators get 4W, a free deepstrike, a blast weapon and loads of CP potential for 10 points.
Night and day in terms of competitiveness.
It'd be great to see wardens get a buff though, would finally give me an excuse to buy some
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 08:52:34
See, my problem with the Wardens is that they are so easy to buff. Just give them A, better ranged options (a special grenade maybe) or b. give them the ability to get the allarus launcher as a weapon. They are distinct enough from Allarus so that last change wouldn't make too much difference. But honestly, giving wardens the ability for a blast dakka weapon would seriously increase their usefullness.
Right now they are the worst at everything, given the options. Allarus are better at character hunting, Aquillons are better at Monster/tank busting, Shield Guard are better at holding objectives, and Bikes are better for hordes.
Seriously, give them the ability to use launchers or some special Warden strat.
That being said I bought 2 boxes back in 8th, and they are essentially worthless to me now. I hope the new dex drops in 2020, so I can sell them on ebay for something. If nothing else, the axes are useful for bits.
, my experience with 9th so far is that you really need a split of shooty vehicles to hold rear objectives and do the damage from far away, and squads who can push onto the mid field and enemy held objectives to hold them without being swarmed.
