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2018/01/23 18:55:49
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Yes the BoLS battle from yesterday also mentioned that you pay for the banner on the Vexilla. Which is imo a good thing. They can price the soup banner (5++ bubble) higher without hurting custodes
2018/01/23 18:56:14
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Kdash wrote: I agree, however, i think, where possible i'll personally opt for the Axe anyway, as it's only 2 points more than the Spear and str 8 is one of those "important" levels.
Oh I agree, I was thinking in terms of the base Custodian Guard. Everyone capable of taking an axe will. It's too good not to.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
2018/01/23 18:59:18
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Yes the BoLS battle from yesterday also mentioned that you pay for the banner on the Vexilla. Which is imo a good thing. They can price the soup banner (5++ bubble) higher without hurting custodes
Damn that sucks, if i'm right in guessing that the costs look to be either 20 or 30 points each, that's immediately adding 50 points onto my army and making me consider even using them now. Can they be taken without the banner upgrade? Because, if not, i think, for 104-134 depending on type and banner, i think i'd rather just have another couple of models or basic squad...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 19:00:59
2018/01/23 19:27:19
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
The -1 to hit aura is worth an awful lot - except against ****ing dark reapers of course. But it would be pricey to have more than one. It would really help against IG. Maybe it's true that you just want more guys. The vexilla is only good some of the time but more people are good all of the time.
Mandragola wrote: According to a preview I saw the shields are going up to 10ppm. If so, I think it's even more clear that spears are the way to go for a full-custodes army.
There's arguably a case for having one or two guys with shields in each squad, to take lascannon shots. But even then going from 4++ to 3++ only helps if you actually roll a 3 - so it's only affecting one shot in 6. At 7 points more expensive than the spear, and with a loss of firepower and strength, I think it makes shields pretty difficult to argue for.
On the other hand, it's very easy to argue against terminators. 84 ppm is just nuts. A squad of 5 to drop in and hopefully get a difficult 9" charge is crazy when you consider that unit costs 420 points. Most of the time it's going to be charging into some random screening squad of nobodies anyway. You're paying 10x the cost of the IG infantry squad you might well find yourself charging into.
Plus it's not even as if deep strike is anything special. It costs 1CP to give it to any of your other units. I'd much rather save a hundred points and use 5 Wardens.
It might be worth putting shield captains and vexillae in terminator armour, if the cost isn't too crazy. The extra wound and ability to deep strike could be valuable on those guys.
If shields go up that much then I agree there isn't really even a discussion to be had, spears all the way.
As far as terminators go - I'd worry about the "it's just 1CP" mentality for swapping them out to Wardens. Lose a wound, gain 6+++, lose a CP, gain ~100pts. How many points would it cost you to regain that 1CP? In an army that starves for CPs outside of allies, I may just pay that cost. Then again, I'm speak from a not strictly competitive POV. My FLGS doesn't have 50 man conscript screens or maximized imperial/chaos soup murder trains.
It's probably 10 for sword AND shield. 10 for shield is likely just for characters otherwise it's a crazy beyond GW's norm.
I'd say in that light you always want swords or axes. Spears are kinda the generalist weapon that is outclassed in survivability by s+s and damage by axe.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote: I'd go with spears, especially if you also use Bikers. Since those are more likely to eat the big guns.
4++ instead of 3++, but double the range, -1AP and 2D, and extra str in melee and the ability to use the knife.
(plus spears look better)
Bikes can't use spears, just lances.
I mean the big weapons that you need your invul save for will be shooting at bikes. Making the +1 invul less important for the basic Custodes.
I think the case against sword and board has been made. They make your lowest-priority target units tougher. All that does is force your opponent to fire lascannons at your terminators and bikes - like he was going to do anyway.
2018/01/23 19:42:32
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Yes the BoLS battle from yesterday also mentioned that you pay for the banner on the Vexilla. Which is imo a good thing. They can price the soup banner (5++ bubble) higher without hurting custodes
Damn that sucks, if i'm right in guessing that the costs look to be either 20 or 30 points each, that's immediately adding 50 points onto my army and making me consider even using them now. Can they be taken without the banner upgrade? Because, if not, i think, for 104-134 depending on type and banner, i think i'd rather just have another couple of models or basic squad...
2 dudes or -1 to hit on a bunch.
Think its worth it for pure custodes.
Not sure for soup. since the invul requires the entire unit to be within 9".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 19:42:44
2018/01/23 19:47:22
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.
I think Sword+Shield should cost the same as Spear. It looks to me more a sidegrade than a upgrade to justify costing more. You sacrifice meele and shooting power for being a little more tanky.
Axes should cost more than spears, thats for sure. Probably 25-30% more. I believe 2 points is too small to justify taking spears when you can take Axes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 19:47:45
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/01/23 20:14:19
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.
I think Sword+Shield should cost the same as Spear. It looks to me more a sidegrade than a upgrade to justify costing more. You sacrifice meele and shooting power for being a little more tanky.
Axes should cost more than spears, thats for sure. Probably 25-30% more. I believe 2 points is too small to justify taking spears when you can take Axes.
I'm inclined to say that the shield costs more because of 5++ to 3++. and doesn't account for the +1 invul from being a pure Custodes force.
2018/01/23 20:17:29
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Yeah, before the difference between 5++ and 3++ was too big, so it was sword+shield all the way. But with the custodes trait... tables have turned. Maybe in some CA they'll touch the Sword+Shield point cost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 20:17:42
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/01/23 20:24:01
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Yeaaaah, sword and board is way pricey now. I am shocked GW actually did that and broke it's attempt to standardize wargear costs across factions in the process.
I'll probably still use them because my experience in my local meta is a 3++ survives two rounds while a 4++ dies after one, but the costs are definitely out of whack. I think the axe should stay the current cost but sword and spear should be reduced.
2018/01/23 20:24:24
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
What does everyone think of Valoris? Pricewise he's comparable to Cawl, Abaddon, Draigo, etc and I think he can offer a lot. Rerolling hit rolls and wound rolls of 1 for an army that hits on 2+ and wounds on 2+ and 3+ against infantry regularly is certainly helpful but I think his Moment Shackle is what sets him apart. Either fight twice if you REALLY want something dead or recover D3 command points is huge for an army that's going to be starving for them. His warlord trait didn't impress me initially but thinking about it, if you deep strike him with Allarus or near bikes, he's a unit your opponent will never want to charge since they can all perform a heroic intervention to him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/23 20:26:33
2018/01/23 20:36:06
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Honestly? I think k he's overpriced. You can get two other foot slogging HQ's for his price. Moment Shackle doesn't give D3 CP, you recover up to D3 from using a Stratagem but not more than the cost of the Stratagem. An axe HQ is cheaper and still hits at S8. Re-rolling Wounds on 1 is nice, which is basically how I'd describe him: nice, but not worth it.
2018/01/23 20:37:50
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
It does also make it seem like the Vexillas cost points as well in addition to the dude carrying it???
Looked that over, it seems Sword&Board does in fact now run base cost +19 vs the Guardian spear at base cost +12. That cinches it for me in favor of spears. +7ppm for +1 invul -1 STR doesn't cut it in my book.
I think Sword+Shield should cost the same as Spear. It looks to me more a sidegrade than a upgrade to justify costing more. You sacrifice meele and shooting power for being a little more tanky.
Axes should cost more than spears, thats for sure. Probably 25-30% more. I believe 2 points is too small to justify taking spears when you can take Axes.
I'm working off incomplete data, so correct me if this is completely wrong, but the Axe doesn't have a shooting attack where the spear does, no?
Edit: Looks like I'm wrong. The pic on faeit looks to confirm the axe shoots just as well as the spear, which means you're totally right - 2 points is too small to justify taking spears when the str vs ap trade off swings in favour of the axe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 20:44:44
2018/01/23 20:41:52
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Audustum wrote: Honestly? I think k he's overpriced. You can get two other foot slogging HQ's for his price. Moment Shackle doesn't give D3 CP, you recover up to D3 from using a Stratagem but not more than the cost of the Stratagem. An axe HQ is cheaper and still hits at S8. Re-rolling Wounds on 1 is nice, which is basically how I'd describe him: nice, but not worth it.
Correct, which is why if you're going to be using 2/3 CP strategems regularly as part of a specific strategy (deep strike strategems, counter charge with the bikes, shooting characters with Allarus, etc) being able to recover potentially the amount you spent or at the very least mitigate the cost somewhat is invaluable IMO especially with the number of great strategems they have. Compared to similarly priced HQs, I think he's solid and a lot more durable and kill-y than they are at that. He might not be an auto include but I think you can make a decent case for taking him in any pure Custodes list barring jetbike spam. Of course, if you're only running Custodes as an allied detachment then I agree, take a Shield Captain instead.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/23 21:04:54
2018/01/23 21:18:02
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
So, this is probably a really dumb question and I apologize ahead of time.
But I have a question about the Moment Shackle thing. Is it that once per battle, you may choose to do one of the three things - or is it that you can do each of those three things only once per battle?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 21:18:36
2018/01/23 21:19:35
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Lemondish wrote: So, this is probably a really dumb question and I apologize ahead of time.
But I have a question about the Moment Shackle thing. Is it that once per battle, you may choose to do one of the three things - or is it that you can do each of those three things only once per battle?
Activate the item once per battle, pick one of three things to do. If memory serves.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
2018/01/23 21:48:13
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I am very happy about the AC codex and the new units we get but.
I think the Termis are a bit to expansive. Valoris is probably ok i need to see the full rules. And the Jetbikes are a bit to cheap. So i hope the FAQ will take care of it.
And the thing that concerns me more is the low CP count we will have. I thought there will be a mechanic to give the Custodes more CP. For example every HQ give CP like RG does not 3 but at least 1. Or something like AM's Grand Strategist.
2018/01/23 22:45:43
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
obsidiankatana wrote: Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.
The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).
Going to a 3++ from a 4++ still makes you 50% more survivable on average against anything that's not mortal wounds, so it's still very nice to have. S5 instead of S6 hurts though, together with sword + shield costing 19 pts... still might do it simply because of aesthetic reasons though
2018/01/23 23:48:23
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
obsidiankatana wrote: Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.
The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).
Going to a 3++ from a 4++ still makes you 50% more survivable on average against anything that's not mortal wounds, so it's still very nice to have. S5 instead of S6 hurts though, together with sword + shield costing 19 pts... still might do it simply because of aesthetic reasons though
My new favorite poster in this thread!
And that's a stat I was trying to remember all day: thank you.
2018/01/24 00:16:08
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Don't forget, the shields and spears are not "All models", it's "Any model" so you are open to mix and match as you please. It's not a bad idea to go mostly spears with one or two shields for tanking heavy shots like lascannons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/24 00:16:50
2018/01/24 02:33:58
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
The point hes trying to make is your spending 4 points on a 2 point weapon. They are priced appropriately however since they are on such a powerful base model.
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2018/01/24 02:37:22
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
obsidiankatana wrote: Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.
The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).
Going to a 3++ from a 4++ still makes you 50% more survivable on average against anything that's not mortal wounds, so it's still very nice to have. S5 instead of S6 hurts though, together with sword + shield costing 19 pts... still might do it simply because of aesthetic reasons though
Spear + Shield is about as aesthetic as you can get I reckon, then you can call them whatever you like in game
2018/01/24 02:45:29
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/01/24 03:27:33
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
2018/01/24 03:45:24
Subject: Re:Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.
Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.
2018/01/24 06:17:07
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
WindstormSCR wrote: 1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.
Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.
The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.
2018/01/24 06:50:06
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
WindstormSCR wrote: 1 board per two spears seems to be about the right mix, given the cost difference.
Am I the only one that is underwhelmed by the bikes? they are incredibly expensive and seem to be at odds with themselves, wanting both to be in the thick of the fight, yet carrying heavy weapons they take penalties to shoot or horde-clearing weapons that are not the targets they excel against in melee.
The hurricane bolters crack open the shell of guardsmen, then the spears feast on the juicy yolk of whatever they were screening.
I was originally thinking the same, but while putting all the stuff that's currently out into battlescribe (yes the file will be out shortly after release, soon as I can get my digital copy since I'm authoring the data file for this codex), I was doing the math for fun and they seem to provide disappointing results vs T6/7+ because of the Interceptor lances only being S6 even on a charge. I'm aware the Lances reroll to wound on the charge, but my dubious perspective comes from using shining spears to do the same, and the results even with craftworld psychic buffs have always left something to be desired, usually doing far less damage than they would to a more appropriate target. The number of attacks from a full 5 unit of spears is similar, and the strength is identical and the damage output actually more consistent with no armor saves usually taken. and they cost less than the Vertus Praetors!
Castellan Axes are incredibly nasty and far more reliable vs vehicles, as is the grenade launcher relic. The better plan seems to my mind to be clearing the chaff with a different option, perhaps even just regular custodian rapid fire from multiple units, before charging in with the axes to finish the job.
The only time the Vertus Praetors seem worth it at all is comparing to the contemptor (which isn't very hard)
A Land Raider Crusader and/or Redeemer would have been a great add to this army list, and feels like a criminally wasted opportunity to sell more kits and give the custodes a useful tool.
