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An only bike list would take them i would think.

Im thinking about making a only bike list for fun (I only need 2 more boxes, so its not like i'm far off from doing it lol).

Outrider
Sheild Cap-Bike
Bike x3-bolters
Bike x3-bolters
Bike x3-bolters
Outrider
Sheild Cap-Bike
Bike x3-bolters
Bike x1-bolters x2 Salvo
Bike x1-bolters x2 Salvo

The problem is you only have 20 models lol.

As a grey knight player, I absolutely added a salvo launcher to my bikes (1 per squad). You just can’t kill some things efficiently if you only rely on melee. I currently have pure bikes, but I’m most likely going to drop a shield captain for a vexila magnifica and some extra salvo launchers. -1 to hit on the first turn, then he stays back and babysits an objective. I’m planning on at least running an outrider paired with 1k of GK eventually as well.

What is everyone’s opinion on bases? They come with 2 options, the smaller pairs nicely with fly but the big ones mean you can block off objectives or have a bigger charge footprint.

I like the oval bases for my bikes. Just for looks purpose lol.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I like the oval bases for my bikes. Just for looks purpose lol.

Yeah, I much prefer the modelling potential that comes with the oval base. Planning on doing a stone/marble temple type of thing. The in-game differences are too minor.

Much like how I've decided to just keep the lances up because doing all the cutting/green stuffing to have them pointing down (without looking weird) isn't worth the slightly easier to hide profile.

The only way i could see Allarus is if you regularly play on boards with a decent amount of terrain, letting you drop the Vexilla turn one 9" away behind a wall, and then on your next turn, move, advance, and at the end of your movement phase drop the Termies and hopefully charge.

My area does have decent terrain, so i was thinking:

Outrider:

SC on Bike

3 Bikes - Bolters
3 Bikes - Bolters
3 Bikes - Bolters
3 Bikes - Bolters

Vanguard:

SC on bike, Warlord, Superior Creation, Auric Aquilis

Termie Vexilia - -1 hit banner
Termie Vexilia - -1 hit banner, misercordia (Deepstriking)
4 Allarus - Axes

-2000

Obv not the most competitve, but it seems like it could be fun.

With all Bike you would want some anti tank.

The list Amishprn86 would be best for this.

I plan to try the list out Friday hopefully.

As for bases, I think the general consensus is oval ones. You can get more into CC and the base is longer to measure by. There was a good point about it being fatter so you could be close to objectives, but if your playing all bikes, your going for full murder and to objectives much. Plus the modeling aspect makes them tied in to the rest of my armies bases better

I think I'm going with:

Shield Cap
Shield Cap on Jet Bike

3x3 Normies - 1 Sword/Shield and 2 Spear each

3 Wardens - Axe
3 Wardens - Axe

Praetor Vex
Praetor Vex

5 x Jet Bike

My full bike list is a combined outrider and supreme command detachment. I get 9 hurricane bikes, 4 salvo bikes, and then 4 salvo captain bikes.

Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.

 Primark G wrote:
Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.

There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.



In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.

Primark G wrote:Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.

Id like that also, but I don't see a reason for warden either. Yea +1 Attack, axes, and 6+ FNP but I can just take more basic guys. They need a transport, and there isn't one worth taking yet. Yu can spend the CP to deepstrike them, but then at that point its better for terminators cause of the range weapon they have. Which goes full circle to why not just take bikes (Obviously to be different, or just play for fun, or theme, but all options are worse at a completive level then bikes ATM.)

Oberron wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.

There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.

In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.

There isn't though. Bikes are the most point cost effective unit in the codex. They fly, they shoot a lot, they have good toughness, they have good melee. That's the problem with A GW Balance, and B having so few units in a codex. Half of the range is stuck in garbage 30k 7th edition land until forgeworld stops sitting on their thumbs

Oberron wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.

There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.



In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.

I'm going to take 2 Smash Captains, IDK what chapter yet, but the are really good for the points. The other night my BA player killed a 12w t7 Flyer in 1 round of CC.

Oberron wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.

There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.



In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.

I run a vanguard detachment so I need another elite unit and Wardens have been doing some work for me.

I look forward to hearing how you Allurus do.

Pretty sure wardens are point for point the best melee in the codex. Axes are just better than spears and wardens are the cheapest axe holder. If you are getting your CP from your guard brigade then I think wardens are straight better than spear custodians. ~12 more points for an axe and 6+ FNP is totally worth it. Uh WOW, wardens have an extra attack. You might as well run all your custodians with spears as counts as wardens. RIP custodians. EDIT: 67 points for axe/misercodia warden. 52 for a spear custodian. For 15 points you get:
1 extra attack
2 extra str on your swings
1 misercodia swing
6+ FNP

That simply isn't close. And they fit in the elite slot in your 3x biker captain detachment.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Oberron wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Wardens are really good. I wish Bike Captains could take axes.

There has to be SOME downside to taking bikes, not having as strong a melee wep should be one of them since they are already faster, tougher, more dakka than anything else.



In other news i'm excited about my 2k points game using the allurus for the first time. I'll post my experience with them tonight.

I'm going to take 2 Smash Captains, IDK what chapter yet, but the are really good for the points. The other night my BA player killed a 12w t7 Flyer in 1 round of CC.

By Smash Captain you mean a space marine captain with thunderhammer?

100% run them as BA. relic to re-roll charge + immune to overwatch. 3d6 charge stratagem, +d3 attacks statagem.

Wulfey wrote:
Pretty sure wardens are point for point the best melee in the codex. Axes are just better than spears and wardens are the cheapest axe holder. If you are getting your CP from your guard brigade then I think wardens are straight better than spear custodians. ~12 more points for an axe and 6+ FNP is totally worth it. Uh WOW, wardens have an extra attack. You might as well run all your custodians with spears as counts as wardens. RIP custodians. EDIT: 67 points for axe/misercodia warden. 52 for a spear custodian. For 15 points you get:
1 extra attack
2 extra str on your swings
1 misercodia swing
6+ FNP

That simply isn't close. And they fit in the elite slot in your 3x biker captain detachment.

Good analysis of the unit. Also Wardens come with Misercodia built-in.

I'm thinking of doing a Custodes force as a side project, trying to build something that uses a bit of everything in a Battalion detachment. I really wish there were rules for 40k Sagittarum Guard to fit in, but until that happens, what do people think of this for a 2k list?

The jump from Warden to Allarus is interesting. Wardens are 67 points after axe and mandatory misercordia. Allaraus with just axe are 84 points. 17 extra points buy you:

deepstrike without spending a CP
interesting strategems
interesting pilein mechanics
the grenade launcher
+1 wound
no more 6+ FNP

I am kind of not seeing it. Durability per point isn't really increasing (3W / 52, 3W 6+++ / 67, 4W / 84), but you are getting more firepower. You aren't getting any more melee power. The custodian -> warden upgrade is a huge upgrade in melee threats. Spears don't actually threaten T7 that much.

yeah the temries are a bit over costed right now, Maybe when they where costed they did have the 4++ native invul save?

Yeah, GW's pointing feels like it is based strictly on the native stats of the unit, without any consideration of stacking buffs or strategems. Like a 30 stack of shooting gaunts can do like 120 shots with strategem trickery .. but they are 4 points or model or something dumb. You end up with silliness like how phosphor robots are the overwhelmingly best unit in the admech codex because of cawls modifier resistant reroll aura and wrath of mars. But for some reason the phosphor bots cost 11 points less than the fist robots.

With custodes we have termies costing 6 points less than bikers ... but bikers are like the only near competitive unit in the codex. GW thought that native deepstrike, axe, and 4W was worth a significant amount of points. On the whole, all of the custodes foot range is overpriced by like 10 points. GW isn't accounting for competitive opponents bringing mobile armies and screens that can deny 6" move non-deepstriking termies combat forever. It is like they looked at the ideal swinging power of custodes in doing the pricing, as opposed to reality where Eldar waveserpents and YNNARI free moves and deepstrike and fire and fade mean that 6" move models are never going to get into combat.

EDIT: that said ... if those sagitarum guard ever come out ... if they are ~52 points for custodian guard that has 4 shot superheavy bolter (str5, -2, 2 dam) ... yeah ... those will be good. If they end up carrying just a regular heavy bolter, oh well, maybe custodes will be good in 3 years.

Do you think the codex was developed with the main intent for stand alone armies?

 Primark G wrote:
Do you think the codex was developed with the main intent for stand alone armies?

I am torn on this. I am convinced that their internal playtesters play games at 1500 points using maelstrom rules with 1 battalion and 1 (vanguard/spearhead/outrider) of mono-codex armies. At 1500 points, you can't get the super firepower lists you see at 2000 points, and you also can't get up to the high CP armies that can really turn CP into damage (obliterators, admech, eldar/ynnari, guard brigades, etc.). I think they did write Custodes to be a stand alone force at 1500 in an environment of limited command points and against armies that also only brought 7CP and 2 detachments from mono-codexes. But in the real world where games are actually played (the entire competitive scene plays way more games than the garage gamers, see ITC, adepticon, etc.), the game has 3 detachments and cross codex armies and 13 CP lists. So yes, I do think GW did write the codexes to be standalone. But they did it with serious handicaps on list construction.

Just checkout at the nonsense that was the release of the daemon's codex. It was instantly obvious that you would want to use the whole new batch of strategems from codex daemons on every 'daemon' unit from forgeworld and codex heretic astartes. But for some reason GW didn't realize this before printing and had to put out a FAQ to block cross codex strategem use. Their internal guys just don't get the idea that you would want to reach across codexes whereever you can because it is always going to be out of whack for balance purposes. Rambling here, but I also think that GW writes the strategems as if they will only ever be used on unit entries from within the codex. They for some reason think that their faction KEYWORD system is enough to keep cross codex strategem use under control, but it sure as hell isn't. I expect the March FAQ to have a hard line saying something like: 'Unless otherwise noted in a unit's datasheet, strategems can only be use on units with unit entries in the same book as the strategem'. Then they add some FAQ notes to the forgeworld unit entries that specify what strategems certain units get access to.

^^ I think you're probably right on the money with that one Wulfey.

Its a sublte but important factor: under what conditions is playtesting conducted. Their claimed consultation with tournament organisers and players would imply a competitive type of playtest, but as you say the results suggest otherwise.

So for Allarus Custodes, what kind of a point decrease (the only rules change we can reasonably expect) will be needed to bring them into regular use compared to the rest of the codex? 10 Points?

The daemon thing was probably an oversight... everyone makes mistakes - the main thing is they jumped on it real fast. Now TBH I don't think the daemon codex is all that good compared to what it was in the last edition. In regards to AC I see them as the ultimate ally but will struggle to win as a stand-alone army... but jetbikes are really cool and I am sure GW is selling a sh*t tonne of them.

Spartacus wrote:
^^ I think you're probably right on the money with that one Wulfey.

Its a sublte but important factor: under what conditions is playtesting conducted. Their claimed consultation with tournament organisers and players would imply a competitive type of playtest, but as you say the results suggest otherwise.

So for Allarus Custodes, what kind of a point decrease (the only rules change we can reasonably expect) will be needed to bring them into regular use compared to the rest of the codex? 10 Points?

I think some of the guys from Frontline Gaming are rumored to have been (maybe still are) involved in playtesting. But if they are then either GW isn't listening to them or they aren't doing their job because they should be good enough to quickly spot stuff like using Codex Deamon stratagems on other Daemons.

Ordana wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
^^ I think you're probably right on the money with that one Wulfey.

Its a sublte but important factor: under what conditions is playtesting conducted. Their claimed consultation with tournament organisers and players would imply a competitive type of playtest, but as you say the results suggest otherwise.

So for Allarus Custodes, what kind of a point decrease (the only rules change we can reasonably expect) will be needed to bring them into regular use compared to the rest of the codex? 10 Points?

I think some of the guys from Frontline Gaming are rumored to have been (maybe still are) involved in playtesting. But if they are then either GW isn't listening to them or they aren't doing their job because they should be good enough to quickly spot stuff like using Codex Deamon stratagems on other Daemons.

It's no rumour - they have confirmed many times that they are playtesters. I can't imagine the Denizens of the Warp issue was outright missed as immediately as the leaks started they went on record to say 'That thing you think you can do? You can't.', so I have to imagine that the context of Stratagems etc isn't presented in it's final form, or that GW ignored any complaints about it.

Allarus would probably be more competitive with Bikes of they had that sweet sweet 3++, or dropped some points. I'm hoping that's the way it's dealt with instead of just making the Bikes more expensive - as they're really cool and having them be the benchmark the rest of the codex is balanced against would be really nice.

Yeah, the FLG guys playtest. That said, they don't seem like the most balanced and objective group of dudes for that job, what, with obvious favourite armies and armies they hate.Meh, better than a kick in the head I guess.

Personally, I think Custodes are a better support codex than stand alone, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was the goal all along. There are a bunch of groups on the imperium side that are (or were) essentially support elites (Custodes, Inquisitors, GK originally, SoS etc), and while it makes sense to allow them to be played in mono lists, that may not have been the prime goal of releasing the list. From a marketing and sales perspective it makes sense to give Imperium players another range of cool figs to add to their collections. People are more likely to buy cool figs that they can field right away. I'm ok with that too, I like Imperium soup, mostly because it matches up with what I've always though Imperial armies should look like - masses of guard, marines, and a smattering of fancy elites.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah, the FLG guys playtest. That said, they don't seem like the most balanced and objective group of dudes for that job, what, with obvious favourite armies and armies they hate.Meh, better than a kick in the head I guess.

I agree 100%. Compare for reference: Grey Knight and Guard Codices.

 Primark G wrote:
The daemon thing was probably an oversight... everyone makes mistakes - the main thing is they jumped on it real fast. Now TBH I don't think the daemon codex is all that good compared to what it was in the last edition. In regards to AC I see them as the ultimate ally but will struggle to win as a stand-alone army... but jetbikes are really cool and I am sure GW is selling a sh*t tonne of them.

Chaos obviously synergizes with its other parts way better than imperium and you are shooting yourself in the foot badly if you aren’t taking advantage of at least two chaos codexes. Most imperial codexes do not have the same crossover benefits

I play a lot of ITC competitively.

I enjoy the FLG guys and what they do.

I'm 100% of the opinion they should never be involved with the rules, ever again, in any way.