Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone

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**stratigo**

greyknight12 wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Here's what a bloodletter bomb is. 30 bloodletters with a herald in support. It will kill, statistically, a jetbike squad.

Now we're talking a 294 point (minimum) unit dedicated to CC, so you cost more than the bike squad. Lets assume that they summon/deepstrike in, and make the charge (+1 attack):
30 Bloodletters (WS2+): 60 attacks/50 hits/16.7 wounds/8.33 unsaved. That ups to 12 wounds if we assume that half of the unsaved wounds were 6's to wound.
Herald: 5 attacks/4.2 hits/1.4 wounds/0.46 unsaved.
So yes, on average you can get 13 wounds on a 12 wounds squad, assuming you make the charge and didn't take excessive casulties (on average you lose 2.7 from overwatch, meaning you do 0.38 less unsaved wounds).
For comparison, lets do a squad of 3 bikes shooting hurricanes at the bomb: 36 shots/30 hits/20 wounds/13.3 unsaved
Then, assuming they charge: 12 attacks/10 hits/9.72 wounds/6.5 unsaved. 19.8 dead bloodletters in total. In CC you'll probably kill a bike in return, but that's assuming they charged you at all and didn't just shoot with another squad.

@Audustum
Manticores/Hemlocks

The farthest your opponent can keep a manticore from you T1 is 55 inches, in vanguard strike (actually, more like 49 cause the tank is about 6" long). So if you advance T1, you'll be able to shoot T2 assuming you deploy forward. Hemlocks do 2xD3 hits, average 4, for 3.33 wounds which becomes 3.33 damage. If it also successfully smited, it killed a single bike.
Leman russes are the same as manticores regarding damage to bikes on their battle cannon, if they have plasma sponsons they do an additional 0.67 wounds (1.33 if they overcharged).

The reason why the bikes are nasty when is because their counters are unlikely to be spammed by your opponent in a TAC list. There is a limit to how many bloodletter bombs you can take. How many manticores did your opponent take and still be able to screen their tanks? The ideal weapon to kill our jetbikes is is a S7+ 4 dmg weapon with at least -2 AP. There aren't many of those that can be spammed while also being able to deal with green tide or cultists. And while those counters to bikes definitely exist, the rest of the army isn't doing meaningful damage at all (rapid-firing guard squad w/FRFSRF does 0.5 wounds).

If you are facing demons, multiple letter bombs is actually quite easy to pull off. Each one makes the herald more valuable, as you only need the one herald.

As for tanks? This is guard. You can get around 6 to 7 tanks and still have a significant number of screens. And the tank math is worse as they will be a number of commanders, a number of rerolls of 1, and maybe pask. A guard gun line very efficiently cleans up bikers fast enough that the return punch on turn 2 doesn’t kill enough

I haven’t matched out any eldar matchups or played them, so I don’t know how well eldar manage, though I imagine dark reapers murder you like they do all else

**greyknight12**

Cephalobeard wrote:
Ordana wrote:
In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.

Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.

Exactly. ITC Champs missions are each turn: +1 if you killed a unit, +1 if you held an objective, +1 if you killed more units than your opponent, +1 if you held more (and a usually impossible +1 for something special). You have 2 points easily with bikes, and with the difficulties in killing them it's quite likely you'll get "killed more" as well (this is a similar reason to why gunlines actually rule progressive scoring games despite intentions to the contrary). If you need objective holders, 180 pts gives you a guard battalion. Additionally, a 3-man squad of bikes can surround an objective with 2" spacing and keep anything else from claiming it short of charging them.

**Amishprn86**

greyknight12 wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:
Ordana wrote:
In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.

Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.

Exactly. ITC Champs missions are each turn: +1 if you killed a unit, +1 if you held an objective, +1 if you killed more units than your opponent, +1 if you held more (and a usually impossible +1 for something special). You have 2 points easily with bikes, and with the difficulties in killing them it's quite likely you'll get "killed more" as well (this is a similar reason to why gunlines actually rule progressive scoring games despite intentions to the contrary). If you need objective holders, 180 pts gives you a guard battalion. Additionally, a 3-man squad of bikes can surround an objective with 2" spacing and keep anything else from claiming it short of charging them.

But not everyone plays those missions. Many just use the BRB ones. You need to build your list and when we talk about building a list, say what mission types so others dont misunderstand.

**Cephalobeard**

Amishprn86 wrote:
greyknight12 wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:
Ordana wrote:
In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.

Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.

Exactly. ITC Champs missions are each turn: +1 if you killed a unit, +1 if you held an objective, +1 if you killed more units than your opponent, +1 if you held more (and a usually impossible +1 for something special). You have 2 points easily with bikes, and with the difficulties in killing them it's quite likely you'll get "killed more" as well (this is a similar reason to why gunlines actually rule progressive scoring games despite intentions to the contrary). If you need objective holders, 180 pts gives you a guard battalion. Additionally, a 3-man squad of bikes can surround an objective with 2" spacing and keep anything else from claiming it short of charging them.

But not everyone plays those missions. Many just use the BRB ones. You need to build your list and when we talk about building a list, say what mission types so others dont misunderstand.

Depends on your format.

**str00dles1**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Anyone else have an opinion on Salvo Launchers? Looking back at them I can see maybe sticking 1 launcher in a unit of 3 or even give the SC one since even though he hits on 3+ he'll reroll 1's anyway to help mitigate it. 1 launcher and 2 Hurricane Bolters in a 3 bike unit sounds fairly balanced especially in a TAC pure Custodes list. Curious to hear people's opinions on this.

Even in a pure bike army I find them suspect. I did 20 bikes, 4 being salvo for anti tank. They did nothing that game

**Audustum**

stratigo wrote:
greyknight12 wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Here's what a bloodletter bomb is. 30 bloodletters with a herald in support. It will kill, statistically, a jetbike squad.

Now we're talking a 294 point (minimum) unit dedicated to CC, so you cost more than the bike squad. Lets assume that they summon/deepstrike in, and make the charge (+1 attack):
30 Bloodletters (WS2+): 60 attacks/50 hits/16.7 wounds/8.33 unsaved. That ups to 12 wounds if we assume that half of the unsaved wounds were 6's to wound.
Herald: 5 attacks/4.2 hits/1.4 wounds/0.46 unsaved.
So yes, on average you can get 13 wounds on a 12 wounds squad, assuming you make the charge and didn't take excessive casulties (on average you lose 2.7 from overwatch, meaning you do 0.38 less unsaved wounds).
For comparison, lets do a squad of 3 bikes shooting hurricanes at the bomb: 36 shots/30 hits/20 wounds/13.3 unsaved
Then, assuming they charge: 12 attacks/10 hits/9.72 wounds/6.5 unsaved. 19.8 dead bloodletters in total. In CC you'll probably kill a bike in return, but that's assuming they charged you at all and didn't just shoot with another squad.

@Audustum
Manticores/Hemlocks

The farthest your opponent can keep a manticore from you T1 is 55 inches, in vanguard strike (actually, more like 49 cause the tank is about 6" long). So if you advance T1, you'll be able to shoot T2 assuming you deploy forward. Hemlocks do 2xD3 hits, average 4, for 3.33 wounds which becomes 3.33 damage. If it also successfully smited, it killed a single bike.
Leman russes are the same as manticores regarding damage to bikes on their battle cannon, if they have plasma sponsons they do an additional 0.67 wounds (1.33 if they overcharged).

The reason why the bikes are nasty when is because their counters are unlikely to be spammed by your opponent in a TAC list. There is a limit to how many bloodletter bombs you can take. How many manticores did your opponent take and still be able to screen their tanks? The ideal weapon to kill our jetbikes is is a S7+ 4 dmg weapon with at least -2 AP. There aren't many of those that can be spammed while also being able to deal with green tide or cultists. And while those counters to bikes definitely exist, the rest of the army isn't doing meaningful damage at all (rapid-firing guard squad w/FRFSRF does 0.5 wounds).

If you are facing demons, multiple letter bombs is actually quite easy to pull off. Each one makes the herald more valuable, as you only need the one herald.

As for tanks? This is guard. You can get around 6 to 7 tanks and still have a significant number of screens. And the tank math is worse as they will be a number of commanders, a number of rerolls of 1, and maybe pask. A guard gun line very efficiently cleans up bikers fast enough that the return punch on turn 2 doesn’t kill enough

I haven’t matched out any eldar matchups or played them, so I don’t know how well eldar manage, though I imagine dark reapers murder you like they do all else

This actually sums up what I was gonna say, but I'll add:

1. Hurricane Bolters or even our anti-tank missile don't do much to Manticores. You need to get in melee.

2. You likely can't move 20" towards them because you'll slam into enemy units (assuming you went 2nd).

3. Even if you can move 20", dropping yourself in the veritable middle of the board probably isn't wise.

4. To answer your question, you should anticipate 3-7 Manticores (each one is cheaper than a bike squad at about 133 points per Manticore, so in theory he could afford 2 per bike squad). Infantry are 4 PPM. Screens will be everywhere.

I believe one of the regimental bonuses let's the Manticores re-roll 1's if they don't move so should probably add that in too.

EDIT: When I maths it it's 2.71 wounds per Manticore with re-rolling 1's. 4 Manticores almost wipe a squad a turn (10.93) for 532 points.

**stratigo**

str00dles1 wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Anyone else have an opinion on Salvo Launchers? Looking back at them I can see maybe sticking 1 launcher in a unit of 3 or even give the SC one since even though he hits on 3+ he'll reroll 1's anyway to help mitigate it. 1 launcher and 2 Hurricane Bolters in a 3 bike unit sounds fairly balanced especially in a TAC pure Custodes list. Curious to hear people's opinions on this.

Even in a pure bike army I find them suspect. I did 20 bikes, 4 being salvo for anti tank. They did nothing that game

I've had mine pop a tank. I've get 14 bikes currently (2 of them forgeworld that I am running as shield captains). They're good at setting up heavy tanks to be killed and killing lighter tanks. But I'm not sure they are worth 15 more points per model sadly.

**greyknight12**

stratigo wrote:
If you are facing demons, multiple letter bombs is actually quite easy to pull off. Each one makes the herald more valuable, as you only need the one herald.

Sure it can be done, but how often is it done? You're getting into the realm of tailoring now

As for tanks? This is guard. You can get around 6 to 7 tanks and still have a significant number of screens. And the tank math is worse as they will be a number of commanders, a number of rerolls of 1, and maybe pask. A guard gun line very efficiently cleans up bikers fast enough that the return punch on turn 2 doesn’t kill enough

Normal bikers don't have 2+/4++, 4 wounds, hurricane bolters, or Fly. How many of those tanks are punishers (1.1 wounds w/BS4+ firing twice)? How many are wyverns (0.8 wounds)?

I haven’t matched out any eldar matchups or played them, so I don’t know how well eldar manage, though I imagine dark reapers murder you like they do all else

Reaper launchers do a flat 3 dmg, so it takes 2 unsaved wounds to kill each bike. A squad of 3 (81 points) on average does 3 shots/2 hits/1.33 wounds/0.67 unsaved/2 damage. A bike kills 1.1 dark reapers at 24", or 2.2 at 12" with hurrican bolters.

My point is merely that bikes are extremely tough, even against things which would normally counter their unit type. They have a unique profile that makes them extremely difficult to kill while putting out a large amount of damage. I think for these reasons you're going to see outrider detachments allied into soup alot, and potentially a few pure bike lists. I apologize if I'm coming across as a jerk.

**Amishprn86**

Cephalobeard wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
greyknight12 wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:
Ordana wrote:
In my opinion in a competitive environment if your sitting on an objective with Custodes your doing it wrong. They are way to expensive for that.
Bring a detachment of something cheap (IG obviously, but AdMech, SoB or Marines can do it aswell) to sit on Objectives while your Custodes go balls to the wall and force your opponent to deal with them rather then your softer Objective units.

Depends on your format. With all bikes/infantry having Obsec, advancing 20" onto an objective and stealing it from a min-man squad of something random from a soup detachment is a real threat you can absolutely do, and may very well win you a game. Not only that, but thinks like the ITC format don't award max points if you table an opponent, so being able to quickly take objectives is a powerful ability.

Exactly. ITC Champs missions are each turn: +1 if you killed a unit, +1 if you held an objective, +1 if you killed more units than your opponent, +1 if you held more (and a usually impossible +1 for something special). You have 2 points easily with bikes, and with the difficulties in killing them it's quite likely you'll get "killed more" as well (this is a similar reason to why gunlines actually rule progressive scoring games despite intentions to the contrary). If you need objective holders, 180 pts gives you a guard battalion. Additionally, a 3-man squad of bikes can surround an objective with 2" spacing and keep anything else from claiming it short of charging them.

But not everyone plays those missions. Many just use the BRB ones. You need to build your list and when we talk about building a list, say what mission types so others dont misunderstand.

Depends on your format.

It wasn meant for everyone since you couple seem to be talking about different formats (which is 100% ok).

**Cephalobeard**

Oh, totally. There's like a million formats and it's all super confusing in general. I'd love to see a standardized format eventually, but it's unlikely.

**greyknight12**

So something less controversial from me:
Salvo launcher vs Hurricane bolter math!
Assuming the bikes moved, and D6 dmg averages to 3.5

T4
2+ - HB24": 0.42 HB12": 0.83 Salvo: 1.62
3+ - HB24": 0.83 HB12": 1.67 Salvo: 1.94
4+ - HB24": 1.25 HB12": 2.50 Salvo: 1.94
5+ - HB24": 1.67 HB12": 3.33 Salvo: 1.94
6+ - HB24": 2.08 HB12": 4.17 Salvo: 1.94

T5-7
2+ - HB24": 0.28 HB12": 0.55 Salvo: 1.30
3+ - HB24": 0.55 HB12": 1.10 Salvo: 1.56
4+ - HB24": 0.83 HB12": 1.65 Salvo: 1.56
5+ - HB24": 1.10 HB12": 2.20 Salvo: 1.56
6+ - HB24": 1.38 HB12": 2.75 Salvo: 1.56

T8
2+ - HB24": 0.14 HB12": 0.28 Salvo: 0.28
3+ - HB24": 0.28 HB12": 0.56 Salvo: 1.17
4+ - HB24": 0.42 HB12": 0.83 Salvo: 1.17
5+ - HB24": 0.56 HB12": 1.11 Salvo: 1.17
6+ - HB24": 0.69 HB12": 1.39 Salvo: 1.17

**Wulfey**

And if the target has an invul save, then the melta missile is much worse than that math indicates.

**Audustum**

Wulfey wrote:
And if the target has an invul save, then the melta missile is much worse than that math indicates.

Most tanks don't. Even Imperial Knights are just a 5++.

That said, the bonus is minimal so I'd say not worth 1.5x the cost.

**Wulfey**

Audustum wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
And if the target has an invul save, then the melta missile is much worse than that math indicates.

Most tanks don't. Even Imperial Knights are just a 5++.

That said, the bonus is minimal so I'd say not worth 1.5x the cost.

Eldar, custodes, Tzeentch, primarchs, assassins ... I mean I can think of stacks of common competitive units that have a 4++. Anything with a 4++ makes the melta missile into a complete waste.

**Audustum**

Wulfey wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
And if the target has an invul save, then the melta missile is much worse than that math indicates.

Most tanks don't. Even Imperial Knights are just a 5++.

That said, the bonus is minimal so I'd say not worth 1.5x the cost.

Eldar, custodes, Tzeentch, primarchs, assassins ... I mean I can think of stacks of common competitive units that have a 4++. Anything with a 4++ makes the melta missile into a complete waste.

Right, which is why I specified tanks in my answer. Tanks being the primary reason you want an anti-tank missile.

**KiloFiX**

Cephalobeard wrote:
I respect your insight, but most OP thing in the game is sensationalism at it's best.

Counters?

Psychic powers in general
Smite
Nurgle mortal wounds
High volume of fire, 2d+ weapons (avenger knights, etc)
Large hordes
Literally any screen
Eldar, specifically denying invulns and dark reapers
Tzeentch Daemons like Flamers and exalted Flamers
I, genuinely, could go on for a very long time.

They're good.
Compared to everything else Custodes have, amazing.

That doesn't mean they're Op because everything else is mediocre.

Btw, exactly what kind of Eldar can deny Invul (aside from Psychic Mortal Wounds)?

**Cephalobeard**

They reduce them, by 1. With jinx. Giving bikes only a 5++, and things like CSM can deny them entirely. I was being relatively vague on purpose because the argument was somewhat pedantic.

**karandrasss**

nordsturmking wrote:
Custodes FaQ is here:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/warhammer_40000_adeptus_custodes_en.pdf

no 5++ for our LR

Where is this from? It's not on the community site...

**Spartacus**

karandrasss wrote:
nordsturmking wrote:
Custodes FaQ is here:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/warhammer_40000_adeptus_custodes_en.pdf

no 5++ for our LR

Where is this from? It's not on the community site...

Thats the repository on GW main site. The community site sometimes lags behind putting up an article.

**karandrasss**

Spartacus wrote:
karandrasss wrote:
nordsturmking wrote:
Custodes FaQ is here:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/warhammer_40000_adeptus_custodes_en.pdf

no 5++ for our LR

Where is this from? It's not on the community site...

Thats the repository on GW main site. The community site sometimes lags behind putting up an article.

How do you get to it? The "Rules errata" button leads to the community FAQ page, no Custodes there.

**Booger ork**

How does this look. Thinking of bringing it to a 650 pt tournament where the beta character rules are not in effect? Plan is to have the ogryn bodyguard march up the board screening the shield captains who then pop out and murderise. Guardsmen are there to fill points and hold objectives

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [27 PL, 480pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Open the Vaults (1 Relic)

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Superior Creation, Warlord

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Eagle's Eye, Hurricane Bolter

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [9 PL, 152pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Catachan

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Elites +

Ogryn Bodyguard [4 PL, 62pts]: Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield, The Deathmask of Ollanius

++ Total: [36 PL, 632pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Any ideas for improvement? Could this idea work for a 2k point list as well?
Most important, is there anything that could beat it

?

**greyknight12**

What’s the rest of the list? Or are you playing in a 632 pt tourney?

**Booger ork**

greyknight12 wrote:
What’s the rest of the list? Or are you playing in a 632 pt tourney?

I need 12 points for misercordia, otherwise its for a 650 pt tournament

**Amishprn86**

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ForgeWorldCustodes-RulesPreview-Feb18.pdf

**stratigo**

Well... the tank is over 300 points. That said, a heavy 8 gun is a bit silly.

I was hoping for around 200.

The dreadnoughts on the other hand feel.. questionable to me

**Cephalobeard**

It's all pretty bad.

Lol

**Mr. Funktastic**

The tanks seem overpriced but the Dreadnoughts might have potential if you deep strike them and force your opponent to answer them? They can definitely stand to get a bit of a points drop though. FW is taking suggestions for improvement and none of this is final so I would probably email them and let them know what they can do to balance it better.

**Kdash**

Cephalobeard wrote:
It's all pretty bad.

Lol

So, i got to the first unit... then realised the Spear costs 75 points.. at which point i started choking and sighing at the same time.

Also, i know they have the note at the bottom saying "Designer's Note: Further wargear options and Dreadnoughts will be available with the full rules in a future Imperial Armour volume!" but, why is the Heavy Flamer included in the stats box when it can't even take one right now???????

**stratigo**

on one hand, I'd like better options. On the other, I don't like forge world as the source of the best options. Because they are both poor at balance and hilariously expensive, and GW should never rely on forge world to patch holes in their armies.

**A.T.**

stratigo wrote:
Well... the tank is over 300 points. That said, a heavy 8 gun is a bit silly.
I was hoping for around 200.

200 points of missile launcher equivalent for 70pts, and a flying predator hull with a +130pt price hike.
I can't help but feel they are missing the point of the points split.