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the twin accelerator cannon is really good. It's just... probably not... 300 points good.

The Exemplar dread with two fists and two Bolters is only 210 and has potential to be worth it's weight.

stratigo wrote:
on one hand, I'd like better options. On the other, I don't like forge world as the source of the best options. Because they are both poor at balance and hilariously expensive, and GW should never rely on forge world to patch holes in their armies.

So, the Heavy grav tank is 30 points cheaper than the landraider, gets a 6++, a better heavy bolter, fly and can transport 1 extra model. However it loses power of the machine spirit, -1 armour save and 2 lascannon shots.

Jury is out on which version of lascannon is better til some mathhammer can be done.

But, all for 30 points cheaper?

I'm surprised the Caladius weapons don't have additional rules like the Sicaran - if it is/was the forerunner to it.

Anyway, they probably should have released a whole lot more if they want things play testing for balance. How can we balance these 4 units against each other and the rest of the 40k units without the full knowledge and additional units. We could come together and make these 4 super balanced, only to have the rest of the units massively out of balance as a result.

I do like the "only 1 allowed per detachment" on the dreadnoughts though. Instantly shuts down the potential spam lists and increases list diversity.

So they are finally getting away with the pretense that this is a final product and just embracing the beta nature of 8th?

Take a look at any balancing thread on dakka and I'm pretty sure we can agree how that will go.

The weapons are way undercosted but the platforms are way over costed. I have no idea what they are doing and I doubt they do either. The accelerator cannon for only 70 points (8x missile launcher)?

The Bolt Cannon for only 25 (the -2 ap and +1 str over dual heavy bolters for only 5 more points, sign me up).

On the other hand the las-blaze (really, terrible name) cost more than a TL LC with less range and some wonky burst fire mode?

Also what's with only being able to take one per detachment? And the weird can't reduce enemy mod beyond 6+?

I don't think this bodes well as a first draft and I'm pretty sure those tanks are going to come in at 100 USD+ which makes it even more unlikely that I will buy one.

The more I think about it the more I hope this is a hoax or something...

bananathug wrote:
So they are finally getting away with the pretense that this is a final product and just embracing the beta nature of 8th?

Take a look at any balancing thread on dakka and I'm pretty sure we can agree how that will go.

The weapons are way undercosted but the platforms are way over costed. I have no idea what they are doing and I doubt they do either. The accelerator cannon for only 70 points (8x missile launcher)?

The Bolt Cannon for only 25 (the -2 ap and +1 str over dual heavy bolters for only 5 more points, sign me up).

On the other hand the las-blaze (really, terrible name) cost more than a TL LC with less range and some wonky burst fire mode?

Also what's with only being able to take one per detachment? And the weird can't reduce enemy mod beyond 6+?

I don't think this bodes well as a first draft and I'm pretty sure those tanks are going to come in at 100 USD+ which makes it even more unlikely that I will buy one.

The more I think about it the more I hope this is a hoax or something...

In that case, this would be an alpha, not beta stage, as they are beta'ing the rules for the upcoming imperial armour release.

I can see the modifiers all going the same was in the march FAQ. -1's stack but never reduce beyond making it a 6+ to hit. This would be really healthy for the scene.

Double Supreme Command of 3x Bike Captains and 2x Exemplars with Bolters is only 1380. Can deep strike both Dreads and easily afford a brigade of AM, if you wanted.

Or just a really efficient Battalion with sentinels, mortars, etc.

I don't hate it.

Question is, though, do the FW dreads come with 2 hands each? Bare hands, that is.

The Achilus with spear has -1 attack, +1 S, +1 T, +1 move compared to an GK grandmaster dreadknight...for 50 points cheaper.

Character rule, friend.

I'd pay 50pts to drop the Dreads wounds down to 9, increases it's FNP to 5+ and become a Character.

Edit: I'm dreadfully tired and may have misread the point here. Ignore me if I'm wrong.

 greyknight12 wrote:
The Achilus with spear has -1 attack, +1 S, +1 T, +1 move compared to an GK grandmaster dreadknight...for 50 points cheaper.

With I'd argue a worse shooting attack and, most importantly, no psychic. And doesn't the Dreadknight GM have a 4 up invul?

 greyknight12 wrote:
The Achilus with spear has -1 attack, +1 S, +1 T, +1 move compared to an GK grandmaster dreadknight...for 50 points cheaper.

Its worth noting that the Dreadknight is a psyker with a better invuln that can also boost his own invuln, and has much better shooting. Both can deepstrike, but the Custodes dread does so through a strat while the DK just pays 10 points, which is very cheap.

Thore dreadnoughts and vehicles benefits from the +1 invulnerable too?

Zorninsson wrote:
Thore dreadnoughts and vehicles benefits from the +1 invulnerable too?

No, it says only infantry and bikes

Caladius Grav Tank - Ranks in at 315. Needs a baby sitter near it to give it rerolls but never has to move, and never worries about getting into melee since fly on tanks is pretty big. also gives you instant threat for any part of your army trying to get up the table. Over all good, but could be better with a points drop a bit. (Maybe 250-280)

Coronus Grav Carrier - Ranks in at 370. Flying Land Raider. Except worse armor and 2 less las cannons. 6+ Invlun is nice, and holds 1 more guy. This isn't enough to justify using it though. Like above, fly is good for tanks, but you loose out half the firepower for AT. Land Raiders are bad, this is bad. Needs a major point drop

Exemplar dread Ranks in 210 base or 260 for anti infantry plasma or 265 for random shots anti tank. Missing a rule where he would get more attacks with 2 CCW, since most things like that have it. Barebones hes ok. I can see throwing him at big stuff asap to cause a distraction and hopefully punch some stuff to nothingness. Plasma flamers are good but way to much points wise each. Anti Tank is ok but random shots kills it. If it was a steady 3 shots id say may be worth it to run him up field while blasting since he still has 4 attacks in melee.

Achillus Ranks in at 245. Sticking with GWs really stupid idea of random shots, has a lascannon like spear. Min damage of 3 is nice, max of 6. Hes, ok...I guess?

Id maybe take the spear guy if I owned it or the Grav tank for funs. Its all disappointing. We must remember that bikes are our closest thing to my mighty lord fire raptor!

I think the costs are about right.

The Achillus looks decent to me. 12 wounds with a 5++ and 6+++ makes for a very tough platform. It’s very dangerous and quick too. The storm bolters are more like heavy bolters – and better when up close.

The tanks fly, so they can’t be locked in combat. Describing the Caladius as a predator hull is absurd. It has more wounds and two tries at a 6++. It has BS2+ as well. It’s murderous against heavy infantry and T7 vehicles. It’s also a fast attack choice for some reason, which could come in handy if trying to make an outrider detachment with bikes.

Meanwhile the Coronus can carry a full squad and a character across the board in safety. It costs a little more than a repulsor but is even tougher. It’s faster and tougher than the Land raider, carries an extra guy, and costs 10% less – though to be fair it’s got one less twin lascannon.
Did anyone seriously expect that Custodes would suddenly get a bunch of cheap stuff?

It's not a tough platform when a Lascannon forces it to only have a 5++/6+++ and then immediately degrade it. In fact, that's a pretty poor platform because suddenly it is less effective in shooting and melee than even Custodes troops.

No on is arguing Custodes would/should get cheap things, they're arguing they should be worth their price.

They're not.

Mandragola wrote:
The tanks fly, so they can’t be locked in combat. Describing the Caladius as a predator hull is absurd. It has more wounds and two tries at a 6++. It has BS2+ as well.

Speaking as a SoB player - you'll rarely get that first 6++. It only applies when your tank is out of cover and taking meltagun hits or for occasional run-ins with shadow swords. Not getting locked in combat is the big draw IMO.
As for BS2+, it really should be part of the weapon cost. Feels like forgeworld isn't splitting their prices in quite the same way as GW.

The local chaos player would love that transport, if only because he keeps getting his landraider swamped with models still inside :p

The Spear Contemptor looks decent but I think i'd rather just have 3 more bikes.

The Caladius actually doesn't seem half bad. It's like 315 points, 60" on the main gun means you don't really gotta move him. 8 shots should pack a punch.

Now he IS gonna get alpha struck by enemy fire and he WILL be dead by T2. He is not an objective holder or something you expect to keep around till end game.

So the question is whether you think he can kill enough to justify 315 in 1 or 2 rounds of shooting.

Exactly. Three bikes, three terminators, it all ends up doing more damage and being more durable.

Yeah the same issue applies to the Coronus. There’s no particular need to transport Custodes around, when bikes exist. It’s hard to see what you’d accomplish with a Coronus full of guys that you couldn’t achieve with 8-9 bikers for the same price.

Actually I think the Caladius has real merit. If there are a bunch of jetbikes zooming ahead, most people are going to be very worried. They will therefore shoot at the jetbikes, rather than the Caladius. The idea that it will always be dead by turn 2 is therefore not really true. If they’ve got that kind of firepower, and they don’t shoot it at your bikes, then they are probably about to be charged by a loads of bikers.

I’m not sure it’s needed, but it does a job nothing else in the list can – pretty well I think.

Mandragola wrote:
I think the costs are about right.

The tanks fly, so they can’t be locked in combat. Describing the Caladius as a predator hull is absurd. It has more wounds and two tries at a 6++. It has BS2+ as well. It’s murderous against heavy infantry and T7 vehicles. It’s also a fast attack choice for some reason, which could come in handy if trying to make an outrider detachment with bikes.

Meanwhile the Coronus can carry a full squad and a character across the board in safety. It costs a little more than a repulsor but is even tougher. It’s faster and tougher than the Land raider, carries an extra guy, and costs 10% less – though to be fair it’s got one less twin lascannon.
Did anyone seriously expect that Custodes would suddenly get a bunch of cheap stuff?

Huh?

Im guessing you think all the costs in the codex are right also?

Fly is good for tanks yes. Doesent mean it makes them playable still. It being a cast attack choice means nothing. Youd just take more bikes realistically. There no issue in custodies "making an outrider detachment".

Or I can spend a CP and 100% guarantee my guys get even farther then that flying turd transport can go and to the exact spot. Custodes are durable enough with stormshields they either teleport in or foot slog. A repulsor is bad to begin with, but its way better then this. It has a vast amount of HB shots so it can actually kill a lot.

No one asked for cheap stuff, but for things to be the correct point cost for what they are/do.

I can't wait until the release some more rules for other units.

Sooooo I am out of the home, but it looks like the Vexilla Magnifica would grant -1 to Hit the tanks and the dreads? If you're doing Caladius that could help keep it standing.

Well, at 1500 points you could do something like:

Shield Captain on Bike
3 bikes
3 bikes
4 bikes
Dude with -1 Vexilla
Caladius

Even if they keep the point costs as is, I'm gonna test the Caladius. I might even buy one though (such a cool miniature)

Audustum wrote:
Sooooo I am out of the home, but it looks like the Vexilla Magnifica would grant -1 to Hit the tanks and the dreads? If you're doing Caladius that could help keep it standing.

It can yea, but its not worth it really. If you do that. you might as well have a captain nearby to make sure it gets to reroll 1s to hit. Or even if you just do -1 that's another 120-30 points or something.

AC were designed as a close range/melee force in 40k

If you take the tank, its a pure distraction from your bikes. It sits back field and shoots at things that could hurt your bikes

str00dles1 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Sooooo I am out of the home, but it looks like the Vexilla Magnifica would grant -1 to Hit the tanks and the dreads? If you're doing Caladius that could help keep it standing.

It can yea, but its not worth it really. If you do that. you might as well have a captain nearby to make sure it gets to reroll 1s to hit. Or even if you just do -1 that's another 120-30 points or something.

AC were designed as a close range/melee force in 40k

If you take the tank, its a pure distraction from your bikes. It sits back field and shoots at things that could hurt your bikes

So I don't really see it as an extra cost because I'm planning to have a flag bearer anyway. He gives my bike some badly needed first turn protection from being Alpha struck. If he's going to be with the bikes turn one anyway then he can also protect the tank turn one. The bikes will usually outpace him by turn to return 3 depending on how good his Advanced roll is. So the way I'm doing it is that if I get good Advance rolls he'll keep moving up with the bikes and I can scoop the tank around the back to keep it in range oven. If, however, he can just hang back with the tank and continue giving it a nice bubble.

I'm debating whether it's worth it to make him a Alaris flag bearer and give him the praetorian plate so he can then jump in the combat when the bikes engage in melee after crossing the board.

The one thing i keep coming back to and questioning is the 4 attacks on the Dreadnoughts. It just doesn't feel right when everything else you want to take already has 4+ attacks.

Sure, they are slightly tougher vs heavy bolters through to plasma, but the invuln is worse. Str 14 -3ap is going to help vs tanks, but, are the Dreadnoughts going to survive to get to the tanks?

I really want to see what the Galatus can do now!

But, on the plus side, the FW Custodes dreads do look absolutely amazing.

Custodes don't need units that are lascannon bait when the entire army is already lascannon bait. The forgeworld models are priced out of competitive play, and GW even notes that they should not be used in competitive play. I think GW doesn't want to see resin in its tournament anymore. See also, Chapter Approved stomping all over resin models and making them cost 20% more points than plastic models for comparable mathhammer damage/durability amounts. See also again, Chapter Approved entirely shutting down every resin model with power level over 30 with a 50-100% points cost increase.

Wulfey wrote:
Custodes don't need units that are lascannon bait when the entire army is already lascannon bait. The forgeworld models are priced out of competitive play, and GW even notes that they should not be used in competitive play. I think GW doesn't want to see resin in its tournament anymore. See also, Chapter Approved stomping all over resin models and making them cost 20% more points than plastic models for comparable mathhammer damage/durability amounts. See also again, Chapter Approved entirely shutting down every resin model with power level over 30 with a 50-100% points cost increase.

They say don't use them in competitve because they are pretty much untested beta rules.... Not that "when released don't take these in competitve".

Still plenty of FW resin out there that can, and does work. It's just not common in current lists.

Kdash wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Custodes don't need units that are lascannon bait when the entire army is already lascannon bait. The forgeworld models are priced out of competitive play, and GW even notes that they should not be used in competitive play. I think GW doesn't want to see resin in its tournament anymore. See also, Chapter Approved stomping all over resin models and making them cost 20% more points than plastic models for comparable mathhammer damage/durability amounts. See also again, Chapter Approved entirely shutting down every resin model with power level over 30 with a 50-100% points cost increase.

They say don't use them in competitve because they are pretty much untested beta rules.... Not that "when released don't take these in competitve".

Still plenty of FW resin out there that can, and does work. It's just not common in current lists.

Contrast how common resin was pre-chapter approved with post-chapter approved .