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3 CP for a stratagem that still requires you to make a successful charge roll? No thanks.

I think it'd only be useful if your opponent charges against a unit of Bikes or Allarus with a very choppy unit (Death Company, Berzerkers, etc) and you have a second unit right next to it.
Otherwise, no opponent is gonna leave a valuable unit at charge distance. Spending 3CP and having to make a 9-12" charge? No thanks.

Yeah like I said Allarus get all the best strats.

Hoodwink wrote:
3 CP for a stratagem that still requires you to make a successful charge roll? No thanks.

3 CP to potentially wipe a enemy unit and/or contest an objective you couldn't reach on your turn during your opponent's turn. Yes please.

Also, you should be running a Imperial Guard warlord anyway so it's more than likely a 2 CP Stratagem after refund with that sweet, sweet, 1/27 chance of being completely free.

Also, just the threat of the Stratagem means he has to be really nervous about getting into CC with any of your gunline so long as the bikes are near.

 Primark G wrote:
3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Yeah, and looking at these strats I barely start the game with any CP between open the vaults (3), victor of the blood games (2-4) and from golden light (3) that's between 8-10 cp I'm spending before the game starts.

I really wish I could have CP regen or some sort of CP battery outside of a guard detachment but I just can't make any of this work without a cheap battalion and a guard warlord and relic.

I guess I could squeeze gulliman in but the guard battalion is just cheaper (220-320 points) and does a better job racking up those CPs...

RogueApiary wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
3 CP for a stratagem that still requires you to make a successful charge roll? No thanks.

3 CP to potentially wipe a enemy unit and/or contest an objective you couldn't reach on your turn during your opponent's turn. Yes please.

Also, you should be running a Imperial Guard warlord anyway so it's more than likely a 2 CP Stratagem after refund with that sweet, sweet, 1/27 chance of being completely free.

Also, just the threat of the Stratagem means he has to be really nervous about getting into CC with any of your gunline so long as the bikes are near.

The problem is that you are using the max possible CP a stratagem can use on something that is not guaranteed to work in an army that already struggles with CP. I mean, Orbital Strike is potentially an absolutely devastating stratagem but you never really see it used outside of "Eh why not?" moments due to its inconsistency. The only time it'd be worth it, like someone said, is it you are sitting right beside the unit getting charged. It's got its potential, but a lot of things have to line up perfectly for it to work the way you want. Even if they do, you still have to not botch the charge roll. The threat of losing 3 CP for nothing off a botched roll is tough to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
Yeah, and looking at these strats I barely start the game with any CP between open the vaults (3), victor of the blood games (2-4) and from golden light (3) that's between 8-10 cp I'm spending before the game starts.

I really wish I could have CP regen or some sort of CP battery outside of a guard detachment but I just can't make any of this work without a cheap battalion and a guard warlord and relic.

I guess I could squeeze gulliman in but the guard battalion is just cheaper (220-320 points) and does a better job racking up those CPs...

Victor of the Blood Games is so stupidly good on a Shield Capt on Bike with 3++ relic lol.

Strats I find worthwhile:

1) Blood Games
2) extra 3++ relic
3) from golden light

That’s it

Does a Supreme Command Detachment get the benefit of Emperors Chosen?

Incognito15 wrote:
Does a Supreme Command Detachment get the benefit of Emperors Chosen?

If all the units in the detachment are ADEPTUS CUSTODES, then yes.

Spartacus wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Does a Supreme Command Detachment get the benefit of Emperors Chosen?

If all the units in the detachment are ADEPTUS CUSTODES, then yes.

Which is precisely why a Supreme Detachment of Shield Captains on Bikes is sooooo tempting to add into another army for so many people right now.

 luke1705 wrote:
Strats I find worthwhile:

1) Blood Games
2) extra 3++ relic
3) from golden light

That’s it

Ditto on that I've played 5 games with custodes so far and I still haven't been able to even attempt stooping dive and a lot of the other strats are either way to niche for the list or I haven't had the Cp to spend.

I mean I’ve got 8 CP in my list from an IG batallion, plus two 5+ CP relics (one for when I spend them and one for when my opponent does).

So I’m likely looking at 14ish CP for the game, which is broken down as follows:

8-10 on blood Games (I have 5 shield captains on jetbikes)
1 for bike relic
Maybe 1 or 3 to deep strike but not often
One or two left over for charge re-rolls
Situationally 1 for Vengeance if Lost Cadia for my Guard mortars

I just dislike Guard aesthetically and play style so I avoid them, but I still scrounge up 7 CP with some builds having a 5+ recovery. A lot of the Stratagems are situational, but it gets hard to not want to just spend most of it on Victor of the Blood Games.

Concussion grenades is really good too combined with Culexus.

Stooping dive isn't only useful against enemy assaults. It's also good if you have your bikers in enemy lines but not engaged. It's a free round of attacks from your unit, which could be devastating.

For me the biggest benefit of Stooping dive is that when your opponent walks out of CC to shoot at you with the rest of his army he needs to focus you enough to kill you or you dive right back into the unit.
This is a problem when you charged with mulitple bike units.

Retreat is a big problem for assault armies. Having some sort of answer to it is great.

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Whilst not having had a game for yonks, let alone with Custards, I'd like to speak in defence of Unleash The Lions.

It definitely needs a bit of know-wots to be effective, but done so it doesn't half help overcome the numerical inferiority inherent to Custards. To break up a unit of 5 Allarus into 5 separate, rampaging demi-gods has a definite appeal. They're tough enough that desultory fire isn't going to reliably drop them, so your opponent splitting fire may not be as bad as one assumes - there's the very real risk that whilst he might take a few wounds off, not enough will be done to a given model to remove it. Not unless they really pour it on. And whilst they're trying to deal with the Sudden 5, that's firepower not being directed at the rest of my force. Again, that has an appeal all it's own.

I guess it really boils down to what your opponent is fielding.

If he's going with Guardsmen for the bulk, a single Allarus is tough and 'ard enough to wallop a unit on their own, and capitalise on the Battleshock (provided of course you've removed the Commissar...).

If it's multiple units of 30 Ork Boyz? Yeah, well, my charge is defo gonna hurt them....but that's an awful lot of attacks coming back at me. Yes, I could bung multiple Allarus into that combat - but because of the alternating activation in HTH, I could lose more than one without getting a single swing in.

So not universally useful, but damned good if you work at it.

I wouldn't worry too much about Commissars any more.

With the Ork Boyz example, splitting the unit up can still be advantageous. Each Allarus is a separate unit, so wound pools don't transfer between them. The Ork player will need to spread out their attacks and inevitably end up over-killing some and leaving others alive to strike back.

Strange I didn't think of that! Totally clocked it as a benefit of forcing your opponent to divide his fire!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Whilst not having had a game for yonks, let alone with Custards, I'd like to speak in defence of Unleash The Lions.

It definitely needs a bit of know-wots to be effective, but done so it doesn't half help overcome the numerical inferiority inherent to Custards. To break up a unit of 5 Allarus into 5 separate, rampaging demi-gods has a definite appeal. They're tough enough that desultory fire isn't going to reliably drop them, so your opponent splitting fire may not be as bad as one assumes - there's the very real risk that whilst he might take a few wounds off, not enough will be done to a given model to remove it. Not unless they really pour it on. And whilst they're trying to deal with the Sudden 5, that's firepower not being directed at the rest of my force. Again, that has an appeal all it's own.

I guess it really boils down to what your opponent is fielding.

If he's going with Guardsmen for the bulk, a single Allarus is tough and 'ard enough to wallop a unit on their own, and capitalise on the Battleshock (provided of course you've removed the Commissar...).

If it's multiple units of 30 Ork Boyz? Yeah, well, my charge is defo gonna hurt them....but that's an awful lot of attacks coming back at me. Yes, I could bung multiple Allarus into that combat - but because of the alternating activation in HTH, I could lose more than one without getting a single swing in.

So not universally useful, but damned good if you work at it.

This still does not seem very worthwhile. You're spending 2 CP and spending a ton of points on the off-chance he'll screw up his division and wounds will overkill. Pass.

When it comes to the actual effectiveness of the Allarus in combat, see a few pages back. Multiple people exhaustively went over the math. You are better off taking a bike in every scenario including character hunting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asmodai wrote:
I wouldn't worry too much about Commissars any more.

With the Ork Boyz example, splitting the unit up can still be advantageous. Each Allarus is a separate unit, so wound pools don't transfer between them. The Ork player will need to spread out their attacks and inevitably end up over-killing some and leaving others alive to strike back.

It's really not that hard to get an approximate average, add 1 Boy for luck and move on. I wouldn't invest so many resources on something so easily thwarted.

Audustum wrote:


This still does not seem very worthwhile. You're spending 2 CP and spending a ton of points on the off-chance he'll screw up his division and wounds will overkill. Pass.

When it comes to the actual effectiveness of the Allarus in combat, see a few pages back. Multiple people exhaustively went over the math. You are better off taking a bike in every scenario including character hunting.

Can you link the page that this is on? I feel like the higher strength of axes would make them better against high toughness targets than the bikes lances.

 Swiftblade wrote:

Audustum wrote:


This still does not seem very worthwhile. You're spending 2 CP and spending a ton of points on the off-chance he'll screw up his division and wounds will overkill. Pass.

When it comes to the actual effectiveness of the Allarus in combat, see a few pages back. Multiple people exhaustively went over the math. You are better off taking a bike in every scenario including character hunting.

Can you link the page that this is on? I feel like the higher strength of axes would make them better against high toughness targets than the bikes lances.

I'll do you one better and serve some delicious copy-pasta divided by category.

Bikes and Terminators Shooting Characters

The Allarus can kill the Captain in the shooting phase then charge another unit - something your precious jetbikes cannot do. I was very generous with the math to help the durability of the Captain... arguing 2.5 versus 3 is dumb.

Can=/=probably will. The math shows that no, on average they fail to kill the captain. If I grab Anydice to math out the probability of him dying...

Okay, chances of doing wounds in shooting are as follows, assuming 2 shots on the grenades each and in range (including Rapid Fire) for everything.

0 Wounds.........100%
1 Wound...........89.96%
2 Wounds.........80.25%
3 Wounds.........60.48%
4 Wounds.........44.31%
5 Wounds.........27.59%

So they've got about a 1/4 chance of one-shotting the Captain in shooting. Not bad... But when you're paying 2 CP and 3-4 times his points cost, not good.

If the character is exposed, then the bikes can shoot him just as well as the Allarus can, and they do, assuming a min squad in rapid fire range, the following wounds...

0 Wounds.....100%
1 Wound.......99.54%
2 Wounds.....96.87%
3 Wounds.....89.35%
4 Wounds.....75.58%
5 Wounds.....57.27%

Making them twice as likely to down him in shooting for barely any more points.

Let's look at 'character shooting' too. One of the things Allarus are supposed to be good at. You know how many Allarus are needed to 1 round a character with shooting? Let's use the humble and quite average Space Marine Captain as an example. For purposes of this, we'll ignore the fact that if you're fighting a good opponent you will never be able to deep strike within 12" of a vanilla captain like this:

3 Ballistus Grenade Launchers shooting at a naked Captain in Power Armor with an Iron Halo will inflict 2 wounds on average. That's it. Not even 50% of the Captain's life. The axes, even IN rapid fire range, will only inflict 2.5. A Captain has 5 wounds. That means even after you spend CP to let an Allarus unit shoot at a humble Captain, you're still not likely to actually kill the guy unless you're packing more than a minimum squad. Let's look at the costs on that, a minimum squad already costs you 252 points. The stratagem to shoot characters is 2CP on top of those points. That lowely Captain you just tried to kill? 74 points. That minimum squad of Allarus costs more than THREE TIMES the Captain, can't even kill him with shooting, and doesn't have the Fly keyword to get over his surrounding retinue.

If you take a bigger unit of Allarus you can one round the Captain, sure, but now you're looking at an even BIGGER than 3-1 ratio on points. This is not an effective method at all. Heaven forbid you actually try to shoot a Character who WANTS to fight you either; it's gonna get even worse.

FYI, if you CAN somehow shoot their Hurricane Bolters against a character, the Bikes average more damage. 3 Bikes is 36 Hurricane Bolter shots (we gave Rapid Fire to the Allarus so we'll give it to the Bikes too). 36 bolter shots is 5 damage exactly against T4 3+, which means the Bikes SHOULD kill the Captain with their guns if they can shoot him.

Conversely, the Bikes can Deep Strike if you want (From Golden Light), can jump over chaff and retinues, are better at killing higher toughness, get the same number of attacks and only cost 270 to the Allarus's 252.

Resiliency of Bikes Against Shooting

Without any Vexillia, it takes the following to kill a minimum unit of 3 Bikes:

324 Bolter Shots

54 Plasma Shots (27 overcharged)

16 Lascannon Shots

WITH the Vexillia Magnifica:

432 Bolter Shots

72 Plasma Shots (36 overcharged)

21 Lascannon Shots

Specifically Overwatch

Wraithguard are T6 with 3W and a 3+. A minimum squad of Bikes drops one with Hurricane Bolters from the get-go (3.33 wounds). Then the overwatch: 4d3 S10 AP-4 1 damage. Sure this is it, right?

2.68 wounds. That's how much damage those 4 Wraithguard with D-Scythes should do.

Damage of Bikes Vs. Terminators

Let's invent a T8 model with a 4++ and FnP Warlord Trait of 5+++. Let's simulate 2 rounds of combat for each:

Bikes R1: 3.71 wounds.
Bikes R2: 2.22 wounds.
Total: 5.93 wounds.

Allarus R1: 3.33 wounds.
Allarus R2: 3.33 wounds.
Total: 6.66 wounds.

Difference? .73 wounds. A fairly negligible difference. The only time the Allarus have a decent wounds advantage over the Bikes is against T7.

Bikes R1: 3.71 wounds.
Bikes R2: 2.22 wounds.
Total: 5.93 wounds.

Allarus R1: 4.45 wounds.
Allarus R2: 4.45 wounds.
Total: 8.90 wounds.

Even this isn't huge though.

As you can see, the only noticeable lead the axes get is when you have three conditions met: 1. Multi-round combat. 2. You're at a damage differential (T7 is still 3+ for axes but 5+ for bikes, T15 would be 6+ for bikes but 5+ for axes). 3. There is a notable invulnerable save.

So basically if you're fighting Magnus or Mortarion. If you want to just straight up hit a T7 tank with no invulnerable:

Bike R1: 6.17
Bike R2: 3.70

Allarus R1: 5.94
Allarus R2: 5.94

T8 vehicle (Imperial Knight)

Bike R1: 6.17
Bike R2: 3.70

Allarus R1: 4.45
Allarus R2: 4.45

In multi-round combat, the Allarus eventually pull ahead (but what tank won't pull back?) while on the turn they charged the Bikes will actually average a bit more damage against T7. Against T8, the Bikes outperform the axes until you hit the third round of combat.

All math can be quickly and easily verified here:
http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/

I assume all the math works out to include the rerolling wounds on the charge for Bikes? If it does, you really can't dismiss the fact that counter assaulters will deny you that option in that round of combat. Then, you are stuck in combat if neither unit wipes the other, forcing you to miss the rerolling wounds on the subsequent round, too. Also, if you fail to wipe the unit in assault on your charging round, you are missing the rerolling yet again.

This is the problem with taking Mathhammer as the end all. It works in a vacuum which is rarely the case in real life. Bikes are great when they are used at their best case scenarios. Allarus I feel are more consistent since they don't rely on requiring the charge to be max effectiveness. That and mixed with the ability to deepstrike and deny first turn wipes without using CP, and they have more options for stratagems as mentioned earlier.

Hoodwink wrote:
I assume all the math works out to include the rerolling wounds on the charge for Bikes? If it does, you really can't dismiss the fact that counter assaulters will deny you that option in that round of combat. Then, you are stuck in combat if neither unit wipes the other, forcing you to miss the rerolling wounds on the subsequent round, too. Also, if you fail to wipe the unit in assault on your charging round, you are missing the rerolling yet again.

This is the problem with taking Mathhammer as the end all. It works in a vacuum which is rarely the case in real life. Bikes are great when they are used at their best case scenarios. Allarus I feel are more consistent since they don't rely on requiring the charge to be max effectiveness. That and mixed with the ability to deepstrike and deny first turn wipes without using CP, and they have more options for stratagems as mentioned earlier.

Check the resiliency part of the math. Your bikes are in no danger T1.

As multiple others have said recently in the thread, the Allarus Stratagems just aren't that good.

The math shows re-rolling wounds on first round then no re-roll on second. The Bikes are 14" move with Fly, they almost certainly WILL get the charge your target. You'll also have multiple units to counter charge any counter chargers (once we start looking at the whole board).

If there is a more dangerous unit to 'counter assault' then that's actually the unit your bikes are probably charging so I find this point relatively moot.

The fact is the bikes do just about everything the Allarus do but better for the same cost.

EDIT: Even without the charge bonus, the difference between the Bikes and axes is negligible. Against an Imperial Knight the bikes will do 3.70 Vs. the 4.45 of the axes. That's a very small difference you're gaining by giving up everything the Bikes offer. Notably, the Bikes can charge flyers like Stormravens and Fire Raptors while the Terminators cannot.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Whilst not having had a game for yonks, let alone with Custards, I'd like to speak in defence of Unleash The Lions.

It definitely needs a bit of know-wots to be effective, but done so it doesn't half help overcome the numerical inferiority inherent to Custards. To break up a unit of 5 Allarus into 5 separate, rampaging demi-gods has a definite appeal. They're tough enough that desultory fire isn't going to reliably drop them, so your opponent splitting fire may not be as bad as one assumes - there's the very real risk that whilst he might take a few wounds off, not enough will be done to a given model to remove it. Not unless they really pour it on. And whilst they're trying to deal with the Sudden 5, that's firepower not being directed at the rest of my force. Again, that has an appeal all it's own.

I guess it really boils down to what your opponent is fielding.

If he's going with Guardsmen for the bulk, a single Allarus is tough and 'ard enough to wallop a unit on their own, and capitalise on the Battleshock (provided of course you've removed the Commissar...).

If it's multiple units of 30 Ork Boyz? Yeah, well, my charge is defo gonna hurt them....but that's an awful lot of attacks coming back at me. Yes, I could bung multiple Allarus into that combat - but because of the alternating activation in HTH, I could lose more than one without getting a single swing in.

So not universally useful, but damned good if you work at it.

I agree that splitting the unit can be very powerful. I was playing against an Imp soup army with lots of support characters. I angled some shots using the strat to target characters and popped a couple psykers. Next turn they split and I bring in my Wardens and a SM unit overwhelming his three SM Dev squads. Worked out pretty good.

As multiple others have said recently in the thread, the Allarus Stratagems just aren't that good.

Have you actually played more than one game using the terminators?

So, what we discovered when we had the dicussion a few pages back/in another thread, was the following -

Bikes out damage Terminators in regards to shooting.
Bikes have the mobility to -potentially- target characters.
Bikes out damage Terminators in assault, in the turn they charge.

Terminators can always shoot past screens into characters at the cost of CP.
Terminators can force the split up of enemy fire.
Terminators out damage Bikes if Bikes don't get the charge
Terminators out damage Bikes after the initial fight phase.

In the example of both units shooting a Marine Captain, 3 Rapid Fire Hurricane bolters will on average kill 1 captain, whereas the Terminators will do 3.75 wounds (due to Iron Halo)

Against each other -

Shooting
Bikes do 1.67 wounds
Termiantors do 1.94 wounds

Combat
Charging bikes do 8.89 wounds
Bikes do 6.67 wounds
Terminators do 6.67 wounds

They do the same damage, simply because of the 4++ and both having the same amount of attacks and both wounding on 3s.

Combat vs a Rhino
Charging Bikes do 9.26 wounds
Bikes do 5.56 wounds
Terminators do 8.89 wounds

At the end of the day -

For shooting Bikes > Terminators
For Combat Charging Bikes > Terminators > Bikes

It's simply your choice as the points difference is 18 points in favour for the Terminators.
Free deep-strike vs 14" move

The rest is going to completely depend on how many CP you have available to you.

Personally, if i was vs Custodes bikes i'd take 2nd turn every single time. They have to come towards you, you get a turn of likely decent fire vs them. You likely get the charge and deny them their re-rolls. After that the bikes simply never get to benefit from their re-rolls from charging as you can potentially just keep locking them up when/if they fall back. (8" charges though)

 Primark G wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

3 CP is not worth it imo when there are so many other really good ones for 1 CP.

This is why I find Unleash the Lions problematic too. Army wide Split Fire makes it questionable to begin with. Then 2CP...

Honestly, the only Stratagems I think are worthwhile:

From Golden Light They Come

Unflinching

Tangle Grenade

Open the Vaults

Victor of the Blood Games

Shoulder the Mantle

Indomitable Guardians

Spark of Divinity

Even in Death

And maybe Plant the Vexilla.

None of these are unit specific.

Whilst not having had a game for yonks, let alone with Custards, I'd like to speak in defence of Unleash The Lions.

It definitely needs a bit of know-wots to be effective, but done so it doesn't half help overcome the numerical inferiority inherent to Custards. To break up a unit of 5 Allarus into 5 separate, rampaging demi-gods has a definite appeal. They're tough enough that desultory fire isn't going to reliably drop them, so your opponent splitting fire may not be as bad as one assumes - there's the very real risk that whilst he might take a few wounds off, not enough will be done to a given model to remove it. Not unless they really pour it on. And whilst they're trying to deal with the Sudden 5, that's firepower not being directed at the rest of my force. Again, that has an appeal all it's own.

I guess it really boils down to what your opponent is fielding.

If he's going with Guardsmen for the bulk, a single Allarus is tough and 'ard enough to wallop a unit on their own, and capitalise on the Battleshock (provided of course you've removed the Commissar...).

If it's multiple units of 30 Ork Boyz? Yeah, well, my charge is defo gonna hurt them....but that's an awful lot of attacks coming back at me. Yes, I could bung multiple Allarus into that combat - but because of the alternating activation in HTH, I could lose more than one without getting a single swing in.

So not universally useful, but damned good if you work at it.

Have you actually played more than one game using the terminators?

I play against people who would never let you deep strike Allarus anywhere close to 3 units of their devastators or any other relevant portion of their gunline. You're not even going to get within 18" let alone 9". Without Fly you will get bogged down in inexpensive chaff for the entirety of the game.

Plus, look at my forum title. I originally played Grey Knights. The Allarus are stronger than the GK's, but they're the same idea. I've got experience on this topic dating back to before you could even field Custodes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:
So, what we discovered when we had the dicussion a few pages back/in another thread, was the following -

Bikes out damage Terminators in regards to shooting.
Bikes have the mobility to -potentially- target characters.
Bikes out damage Terminators in assault, in the turn they charge.

Terminators can always shoot past screens into characters at the cost of CP.
Terminators can force the split up of enemy fire.
Terminators out damage Bikes if Bikes don't get the charge
Terminators out damage Bikes after the initial fight phase.

In the example of both units shooting a Marine Captain, 3 Rapid Fire Hurricane bolters will on average kill 1 captain, whereas the Terminators will do 3.75 wounds (due to Iron Halo)

Against each other -

Shooting
Bikes do 1.67 wounds
Termiantors do 1.94 wounds

Combat
Charging bikes do 8.89 wounds
Bikes do 6.67 wounds
Terminators do 6.67 wounds

They do the same damage, simply because of the 4++ and both having the same amount of attacks and both wounding on 3s.

Combat vs a Rhino
Charging Bikes do 9.26 wounds
Bikes do 5.56 wounds
Terminators do 8.89 wounds

At the end of the day -

For shooting Bikes > Terminators
For Combat Charging Bikes > Terminators > Bikes

It's simply your choice as the points difference is 18 points in favour for the Terminators.
Free deep-strike vs 14" move

The rest is going to completely depend on how many CP you have available to you.

Personally, if i was vs Custodes bikes i'd take 2nd turn every single time. They have to come towards you, you get a turn of likely decent fire vs them. You likely get the charge and deny them their re-rolls. After that the bikes simply never get to benefit from their re-rolls from charging as you can potentially just keep locking them up when/if they fall back. (8" charges though)

Mostly right but slightly off. Axes only beat bikes against T7 and just by a hair's breadth at T8 without the charge. For similar reasons, the axes also outperform against T6 (it's another break point). Outside the break points, however, the bikes win even without the charge unless you have a good invulnerable save (at which point they equalize).

Without Charge
Against T9 it's 5.56 (bikes) to 4.45 (axes).
Against T5 it's 11.11 (bikes) to 8.89 (axes).
Against T4 it's 11.11 (bikes) to 11.11 (axes) (the -1 AP of the bikes equals out the 2+ to wound for the axes).
Against T3 it's 13.90 (bikes) to 11.11 (axes).

So the axes only beat the bikes in very specific niches and even then they only do it by a handful of wounds at best. That's it. They really aren't that much better even in places where they are supposed to excel.

Moving on, I'll add that bikes have Fly, which is way more valuable than deep strike. Fly allows them to jump and charge over chaff units. It allows them to fall back and shoot their hurricane bolters while in rapid fire range. It allows them to charge flyers like Hemlock's, Fire Raptors, Flyrants and Stormravens. In an era of mass screening and tons of cheap horde units to wall off deep strike, that's far more important than natively having deep strike yourself.

With their fast movement, the bikes are also much more likely to charge than the Allarus or any would-be enemy assaulters. This is important not just for their re-rolls but because chargers strike first. The Allarus are much more likely to have to suffer through an onslaught of enemy attacks before swinging back while the bikes get first strike.

I gave the example of the army I faced that had AM blob screen with three castled SM Dev squads... your bikes are not going to be able to charge them either. They also has banner shoot on 3+ if Dev bites the dust. Soooo you can shoot them with hail of SB fire and charge chaff. He will pull models so you are out of combat then blast you. How do you deal with this scenario using the jetbikes? assume he will not remove chaff such that you can charge Devs.


"So the axes only beat the bikes in very specific niches and even then they only do it by a handful of wounds at best. That's it. They really aren't that much better even in places where they are supposed to excel."

It is kind of a big deal because units at T7 and up typically can smash Custodes in combat.

 Primark G wrote:
I gave the example of the army I faced that had AM blob screen with three castled SM Dev squads... your bikes are not going to be able to charge them either. They also has banner shoot on 3+ if Dev bites the dust. Soooo you can shoot them with hail of SB fire and charge chaff. He will pull models so you are out of combat then blast you. How do you deal with this scenario using the jetbikes? assume he will not remove chaff such that you can charge Devs.

This is easy because it's common. I'll point out your story is a bit inconsistent though because you DID charge them according to your previous post.

When facing castled devs, turbo boost T1 into LoS blocking terrain. Don't play on planet bowling ball. On T2, your aim is to move over the chaff so look for a landing zone. If there isn't one, attempt to cripple a unit sufficiently to make one for T2/T3 with hurricane bolter fire (whole Guard squads are only 10 models after all). If charging will significantly increase your proximity to the devs then go ahead and do that too but he's gonna fall back so it won't defend you from his shooting regardless.

Move and Advance your Vexila Magnifica to keep the bikes in range if anybody can't block LoS with terrain.

Likely by T2 but certainly by T3 you should have a spot to complete a landing behind the chaff line and attempt a charge against the devs. Remember, we're talking about army on army combat here so you won't have just one bike squad up here but several. You should easily be able to put 50-100 shots out on T2. Your healthiest bike squad can attempt the charge at the earliest opportunity.

Consult the resiliency chart for how survivable this is. Even with 3 Dev squads you shouldn't even lose a full unit of bikes on average (assuming they're all packing lascannons).

"So the axes only beat the bikes in very specific niches and even then they only do it by a handful of wounds at best. That's it. They really aren't that much better even in places where they are supposed to excel."

It is kind of a big deal because units at T7 and up typically can smash Custodes in combat.

Uhhh, no. There's nothing T7 that can 'smash' Custodes in combat except Magnus and Mortarion.

Also, since the bikes are faster with fly, they're more likely to get to swing first against Morty while the Allarus are gonna eat a round of combat from either Primarch first. Even worse, Magnus can just kite the Allarus indefinitely and smite them into oblivion.