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3 bikes within 12" kill 13 guardsman. Cutting a hole to charge through isn't that hard.

Your suggestions are all based on the easiest of situations and you seemed to have ignored some of what I said such as the Devs shooting on 3+ when they die... they can mulch an entire squad easy. I believe you advocate all bikes 24-7 right? I advocate the use of various units including bikes but not exclusively and I can tell you that the Vexilla will never get anywhere close to the Dev castle.

On T7 -

Dreads can... fail a couple invuls there goes a bike. Redemptor can potentially clear a full squad. Deamon Prince take down a couple jetbikes easy.

" I'll point out your story is a bit inconsistent though because you DID charge them according to your previous post."

I was able to charge the chaff easy but not the Devs. May have made it in on sixth turn but it was really late at the shop so we called it after the fifth turn.

Ordana wrote:
3 bikes within 12" kill 13 guardsman. Cutting a hole to charge through isn't that hard.

Not a big blob if they are spaced out correctly.

 Primark G wrote:
Your suggestions are all based on the easiest of situations and you seemed to have ignored some of what I said such as the Devs shooting on 3+ when they die... they can mulch an entire squad easy. I believe you advocate all bikes 24-7 right? I advocate the use of various units including bikes but not exclusively and I can tell you that the Vexilla will never get anywhere close to the Dev castle.

I didn't ignore the Dev 3+. I didn't say for you to attack the devs unless you got within 12". It's largely a non-issue since they're not really dying till in close combat.

It's also the situation YOU offered as an example. You want a harder one? Offer it.

No, devs cannot mulch a squad of bikes easy. It takes 21 lascannons to drop bikes within range of the Vexilla. 3 Dev squads is like 12. You'll likely lose 1 model from 1 squad per turn and maybe a two-fer on T2 or T3. You'll be in range an fighting before significant damage unless there's other fire support

Anyway, I don't advocate the bikes 24/7. I just say the Allarus aren't worth it because the bikes do everything better or close enough to equal. Custodian Guard are great if you want a pure battalion for CP. Guard and Wardens can work if you want an immobile unit to camp an objective without allies. The Allarus just don't work in any role because they need buffs or point reductions.

Finally, I didn't say to get the Vexilla near the castle. The Vexilla is to protect any bikes on T2 that can't get into LoS blocking terrain.

On T7 -

Dreads can... fail a couple invuls there goes a bike. Redemptor can potentially clear a full squad. Deamon Prince take down a couple jetbikes easy.

Anything CAN happen, what matters is likely. A guardsman can punch an Imperial Knight to death, but is that likely? No. Dreads don't have enough volume of attacks to likely kill a bike squad. I don't even think one bike is like but I'm on the road so no maths. Daemon Princes are the same.

" I'll point out your story is a bit inconsistent though because you DID charge them according to your previous post."

I was able to charge the chaff easy but not the Devs. May have made it in on sixth turn but it was really late at the shop so we called it after the fifth turn.

Okay, my bad. I got lost there.

Ordana wrote:
3 bikes within 12" kill 13 guardsman. Cutting a hole to charge through isn't that hard.

Not a big blob if they are spaced out correctly.

 Primark G wrote:
Your suggestions are all based on the easiest of situations and you seemed to have ignored some of what I said such as the Devs shooting on 3+ when they die... they can mulch an entire squad easy. I believe you advocate all bikes 24-7 right? I advocate the use of various units including bikes but not exclusively and I can tell you that the Vexilla will never get anywhere close to the Dev castle.

On T7 -

Dreads can... fail a couple invuls there goes a bike. Redemptor can potentially clear a full squad. Deamon Prince take down a couple jetbikes easy.

" I'll point out your story is a bit inconsistent though because you DID charge them according to your previous post."

I was able to charge the chaff easy but not the Devs. May have made it in on sixth turn but it was really late at the shop so we called it after the fifth turn.

Ordana wrote:
3 bikes within 12" kill 13 guardsman. Cutting a hole to charge through isn't that hard.

Not a big blob if they are spaced out correctly.

A dread isn’t beating 3 bikers

stratigo wrote:


A dread isn’t beating 3 bikers

Yeah, getting 1.111 unsaved wounds through on average - which is a bit more likely to not even kill a bike than to do so. And the bikes in turn tear chunks out of the Dread (even worse if they got the charge and dropped the Dread's WS before it got to swing).

You are assuming best case dice for Custodes... dread hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+... fail two 4++ and the opponent rolls 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. Redemptor fist does D6 damage. The dread might not take out the squad but can neuter them.

No, devs cannot mulch a squad of bikes easy. It takes 21 lascannons to drop bikes within range of the Vexilla.

The magical Vexilla - how is it ever getting that close to the Dev castle?

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming best case dice for Custodes... dread hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+... fail two 4++ and the opponent rolls 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. Redemptor fist does D6 damage. The dread might not take out the squad but can neuter them.

No, devs cannot mulch a squad of bikes easy. It takes 21 lascannons to drop bikes within range of the Vexilla.

The magical Vexilla - how is it ever getting that close to the Dev castle?

By being a character you can't target and Deepstriking next to the bikes after they advance up turn 1?

A Redemptor dread does 1.5 wounds per fight phase. it takes 3 tries for it to kill 1 bike on average. Its not going to neuter them unless your assuming 'best case dice'.

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming best case dice for Custodes... dread hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+... fail two 4++ and the opponent rolls 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. Redemptor fist does D6 damage. The dread might not take out the squad but can neuter them.

No, devs cannot mulch a squad of bikes easy. It takes 21 lascannons to drop bikes within range of the Vexilla.

The magical Vexilla - how is it ever getting that close to the Dev castle?

It's still like 18 even without the Vexilla, you realize that right?

And for the second time, it isn't meant to. It's for protecting the bikes on T2.

Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

What is keeping it from getting shot down? Versus say the example of a Dev castle or reaper castle the opponent will deploy as deep as possible in their DZ.

The Vexilla?

The... Character rule...?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

Range is 6" but there's a strat to make it 12" if you need the extra space. So yep, you got it!

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming best case dice for Custodes... dread hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+... fail two 4++ and the opponent rolls 5/5, 5/6, or 6/6. Redemptor fist does D6 damage. The dread might not take out the squad but can neuter them.

Errr...best case for the Custodes is they make their 4++ on whatever manages to actually hit and wound (which is 2.22222, at 4++ that's the 1.1111 getting though - which makes saving everything not that far-fetched). The Dread on average does about 3.8 damage, which means a bit more than half the time it's not even killing one bike.

And again, that's assuming it gets the charge off and isn't charged first and dropped to a worse damage bracket.

Audustum wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

Range is 6" but there's a strat to make it 12" if you need the extra space. So yep, you got it!

I forgot about that strat... really good but still don't know if it will guarantee you can charge the castle - will prolly come down to the deployment type and how much chaff they have.

So back to dread - 4 attacks, hits 3 times and wounds three times. You fail two saves losing a bike. These are the type of odds you should consider, not those most favorable.

 Primark G wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

Range is 6" but there's a strat to make it 12" if you need the extra space. So yep, you got it!

I forgot about that strat... really good but still don't know if it will guarantee you can charge the castle - will prolly come down to the deployment type and how much chaff they have.

So back to dread - 4 attacks, hits 3 times and wounds three times. You fail two saves losing a bike. These are the type of odds you should consider, not those most favorable.

Averages. not most favorable.
2.667 hits, not 3.
2.222 wounds, not 3
1.111 failed saves, not 2

 Primark G wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, considering most deployments, if you start it slightly behind the operating line and then advance it, you have a coverage of 6+d6+9" (iirc, range of the vex) distance out to the backmost bike unit. It's unlikely you're not staying within range.

It's not magic, it's just math.

Range is 6" but there's a strat to make it 12" if you need the extra space. So yep, you got it!

I forgot about that strat... really good but still don't know if it will guarantee you can charge the castle - will prolly come down to the deployment type and how much chaff they have.

Or, as noted, just DS an Allarus Vexilla into supporting position.

So back to dread - 4 attacks, hits 3 times and wounds three times. You fail two saves losing a bike. These are the type of odds you should consider, not those most favorable.

Funny how you admonish us to not take the more favorable outcomes, when you are doing exactly that for the Dread, It's 4 attacks hits 2.667 times, which wound 2.222 times, which gets 1.111 unsaved through for 3.889 damage inflicted on average. Yes, that means the Dread does have a pretty good chance to kill one bike - but that's hardly neutering or cleaning out the unit. And more often than not, it's not even killing a bike.

And if you want to consider unfavorable odds for the dread: with bolter fire and misercordia, 3 bikes kill the Redemptor firing into then charging more often that not (13.333 damage inflicted on average).

Yeah, there will be times when the Dread will get in and have 3 swings that get through the invul and roll 4+ on the damage and it will one shot a min bike squad and it will be a great story because of how unlikely it is. Especially when compared to the likelihood of the Dread not even killing one bike (the most common case).

"Funny how you admonish us to not take the more favorable outcomes, when you are doing exactly that for the Dread, It's 4 attacks hits 2.667 times, which wound 2.222 times, which gets 1.111 unsaved through for 3.889 damage inflicted on average."

Okay we agree on average the dread can kill one bike in melee and that is assuming there are no wounds on the squad. And yeah I do admonish you for taking the most favorable odds... it is not realistic if you are playing competitive games.

 Primark G wrote:
"Funny how you admonish us to not take the more favorable outcomes, when you are doing exactly that for the Dread, It's 4 attacks hits 2.667 times, which wound 2.222 times, which gets 1.111 unsaved through for 3.889 damage inflicted on average."

Okay we agree on average the dread can kill one bike in melee and that is assuming there are no wounds on the squad. And yeah I do admonish you for taking the most favorable odds... it is not realistic if you are playing competitive games.

On average it doesn't because the average is 3.889 damage done, which is less than the bike's 4 Wounds. That means over half the time it isn't killing a bike. That's not "most favorable", that's overall the majority case. Again, most favorable is the bikes acing their saves (and optionally the Dread whiffing more) and not taking any damage at all.

And yes, that's assuming no wounds on the bikes - and no wounds on the Dread and the Dread getting the charge so it attacks first before it gets dropped to a lower damage category.

You keep on going on about not using "most favorable" when we are giving the straight averages and you are assuming more favorable outcomes for the Dread.

You are assuming that the unit has taken no wounds prior to the melee though. AC doesn't really have the weapons to kill a dread from range.

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming that the unit has taken no wounds prior to the melee though. AC doesn't really have the weapons to kill a dread from range.

funny how the goalposts keep moving.

Your assuming an uninjured dreadnought getting the charge on a vastly more mobile enemy.
If the bikers get the charge its a bad story. 2 bikers will knock the dread down a profile (by the slimmest of margins, granted). And thats just counting their melee attacks, not any shooting.

 Primark G wrote:
You are assuming that the unit has taken no wounds prior to the melee though. AC doesn't really have the weapons to kill a dread from range.

14" move with FLY. You are assuming that the bikes were in a position to be shot at before hand. And that the Dread hasn't taken any damage from anything itself. And that it gets to make the charge.

A dakka Redepmtor with storm bolters and rocket pod does 1.777 damage if it stands still, 1.333 if it moves. So yes, it can put some damage on before contact is made - and then the bikes most likely cripple or kill it on the charge.

In short: Yes, a Redemptor isn't something a jetbike squad can blithely ignore while it goes about it's business. But practically speaking, that Dread isn't going to be "clearing the unit" or really even "neutering" it.

3 bikes with hurricane bolters do 3.33 wounds to a redemptor at 12”. And since you want to explore possibilities beyond the average, a lucky Melta missile from another squad can easily take off a few more.
As far as losing the charge, that’s easy: back out of combat and each bike dumps 12 Bolter shots at whatever they charged last turn. In my game, I leapfrogged my bike squads (2k, I had 6 3-man squads) so units were either charging or retreating and shooting. Fly is shockingly good, especially on a unit which has the levels of offense bikes do (shooting and assault). And remember that they are functionally immune to S3 and take minimal damage up until you hit S6+ AP-2 weapons. So while the devs or dreadnought are a threat, it’s one you can overwhelm because it is the ONLY threat.

Alendrel wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

In short: Yes, a Redemptor isn't something a jetbike squad can blithely ignore while it goes about it's business. But practically speaking, that Dread isn't going to be "clearing the unit" or really even "neutering" it.

Sure it can with a D6 DMG DCCW. And if it is smacking you then you can bet there is prolly a Captain or Chaplain nearby buffing it.

Here is a good VBR to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6VTQ3wgtws&t=6020s

“Can” isn’t “likely”. If you are thinking “I’m gonna take this Redemptor and it’s gonna *own* those pesky jetbikes” you are going to be sadly disappointed.

And yeah we aren’t factoring Captain buffs (lol at taking Chaplains to babysit gunlines) but we aren’t factoring the inevitable Shield-Captain buffs either, so keep them goalposts moving.

Ok I’m not sure what’s gone on for the last page or so, but let me try to sum it up and simultaneously put the issue to rest:

1) the redemptor dread, if it’s a little lucky, kills a bike or two before being murdered by his friends. If he’s not lucky, he dies without killing a single bike

2) average math is the only math that bears understanding. It’s a dice game. Anything can happen. But I’ve had people say “Mortarion can do 100+ wounds in a single turn”.....yes technically, but no.

Can we get back to tactics now? Like has anyone put this “I’m going to take only hurricane bolters and use pokey sticks for melee” strategy and actually tried it, or is this all just blowing steam? I still have 9 more bikes to assemble before I can run my list. So next Friday hopefully

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok I’m not sure what’s gone on for the last page or so, but let me try to sum it up and simultaneously put the issue to rest:

1) the redemptor dread, if it’s a little lucky, kills a bike or two before being murdered by his friends. If he’s not lucky, he dies without killing a single bike

2) average math is the only math that bears understanding. It’s a dice game. Anything can happen. But I’ve had people say “Mortarion can do 100+ wounds in a single turn”.....yes technically, but no.

Can we get back to tactics now? Like has anyone put this “I’m going to take only hurricane bolters and use pokey sticks for melee” strategy and actually tried it, or is this all just blowing steam? I still have 9 more bikes to assemble before I can run my list. So next Friday hopefully

I have been running a Custodes battalion to test different options, but don't confuse only.loadout discussions with tactics. The last few pages were definitely a tactical discussion.

Here's what I've got so far based on what I took and theorizing while list creating:

Custodian Guard: Sword+Board is better than spear in a majority Custodes force. The spear is great and all but Wardens and Jetbikes do anything you want the spear to do but better. The unique thing the Guard add are access to a 3++ to ensure they hang on to anything like nails. That said, not worth it if you wanna take Astra Militarum ally or the like.

Wardens: Good if you want mass axes but not for much else. Jetbikes hit harder and Guards are more durable with the 3++.

Shield-Captain: Jetbike version is best but his point cost with Allarus armor isn't awful and is a good way to get axe access.

Vexilla: Magnifica is the clear winner. I think it's better to leave him in plain armor for axe access than to put him in Allarus and get stuck with only a Misericordia.

Jetbikes: Hurricane Bolters all the way. Missiles are just not worth it. Most powerful unit in the Codex.

Allarus: Not worth it in current point cost. Need a capabilities buff or cost decrease.

Taking axes just on your characters is good enough axe access to deal with the armor present in most TAC lists.

What is Custodes best option for anti tank?

I'm thinking of the Leman Russ variety.

 dan2026 wrote:
What is Custodes best option for anti tank?

I'm thinking of the Leman Russ variety.

Melee.

For shooting: the missile launcher for the bikes gets the best math results. The problem is just that you're paying too much for it. It won't be cost effective. The Hurricane Bolters aren't bad for glancing and are probably second best in rapid fire range.

Forgeworld just released beta rules (free and online) for Custodes units they sell. Those present MUCH better options than the Codex. The Caladius Tank having the most potential from my point of view, but I still need to experiment.

Best shield captain is on bike with 3++ and 5++ FNP. I’d like to take the ranged missile launcher but the hurricane bolter is better for clearing out chaff.

"“Can” isn’t “likely”. If you are thinking “I’m gonna take this Redemptor and it’s gonna *own* those pesky jetbikes” you are going to be sadly disappointed."

I typically cast MoH and VoT on my Redemptor so good luck with that plus a close by CM.

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok I’m not sure what’s gone on for the last page or so, but let me try to sum it up and simultaneously put the issue to rest:

1) the redemptor dread, if it’s a little lucky, kills a bike or two before being murdered by his friends. If he’s not lucky, he dies without killing a single bike

2) average math is the only math that bears understanding. It’s a dice game. Anything can happen. But I’ve had people say “Mortarion can do 100+ wounds in a single turn”.....yes technically, but no.

Can we get back to tactics now? Like has anyone put this “I’m going to take only hurricane bolters and use pokey sticks for melee” strategy and actually tried it, or is this all just blowing steam? I still have 9 more bikes to assemble before I can run my list. So next Friday hopefully

The bike guns are super easy to magnetize and according to some can even swap in/out without them (mine kept falling out whenever I picked up the bike so I went ahead and magnetized them).