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2018/03/13 19:46:52
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
The Vexilla Magnifica is good against just about anyone; it keeps you alive long enough to get into melee where your actual damage happens.
There isn't really much about Tau that pushes your builds one way or another; they're a gunline with reasonably effective chaff and hard targets packing a lot of firepower, you don't really need to tweak anything to handle them specifically. Things to worry about with Custodes:
--Drones: Tau Battlesuits (including some of the really big ones) can allocate incoming Wounds to drones; this is done per-wound rather than per-hit, so your multi-damage attacks aren't necessarily better-off shooting the drone than the battlesuit. Weaker shots into heavier battlesuits (staff-bolters that would wound a Riptide on a 5+ going into a 3+ modified armour save, for instance) and any single-damage shots (hurricane bolters, Allarus wrist grenades) should target the drones first, however. The drones interfere with any ranged alpha-strike potential that the beta rules' bigger guns offer; the Caladius and the las-talons on the Dreadnaughts are still useful, but use them carefully lest you find yourself wasting firepower on said drones.
--Markerlights: The aforementioned drone problem and our lack of long-range shooting makes clearing Pathfinders early more of a problem than it is for other armies. Stick hard to the Vexilla Magnifica on the first turn or two so their markerlights only hit you on 5+; they can still get markerlights through but you'll force them to burn command points on the Networked Markerlight stratagem. Keep in mind that Pathfinders are single-Wound T3/5+ models and task Vertus bolters with clearing them if possible. Remember that all these big scary non-Commander battlesuits are BS4+ with no rerolls if there aren't any Markerlights on the table.
--Fly and damage tables: Riptides, Ghostkeels, and the FW Riptide variants' BS goes down when they drop past half health; they may have Fly so you can't lock them in combat, but if you can deny them their Markerlights it's usually enough to cripple them.
--Deepstrike-chicken: Most of the time you want everything on the table immediately since your army needs to get a quick lead on damage to perform well, but Tau can and will hold fusion-suits to drop in and blast down some Custodians where you really don't want them to. There's not a huge amount you can do about it, but Tau are one of the few armies against which I'd actually recommend having a few Sentinel Guard (shield/blade Guard models) to interfere with said fusion-suits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: ...It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn...
One of the great things about the Vexilla Magnifica against Tau is that their Pathfinders are hitting with said Markerlights on a 5+. You don't stop them from getting 5 Markerlights, but you usually force them to burn CP on Networked Markerlights to do it and making their big suits hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ is still useful.
The problem i have with this though, is that for the same amount of points as the standard guy with the banner, you can get 3 markerlights that hit on 2+, on top of the 1 CP stratagem i don't really envision many issues - but yes, if it's against something like a marker drone spam list, then, the -1 to hit would prevent a lot of stacks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/13 19:47:42
2018/03/13 19:50:14
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote:Are you planning to play pure Custodes?
Yes i do. its a casual game so i don't want to ally AM or some thing.
Kdash wrote:
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn.
As for vs T'au, i think the best bet is bikes - unfortunately. You're going to need the dakka to take out the Drones and Fire Warrior screens, and the mobility to chase suits down. I do love the Dreadspear Dreadnought, but, unless you can screen it, it's going to die very quickly vs T'au, from either Ion Hammerheads, Riptides, Broadsides or Crisis Suits dropping in to instantly blow it up.
What about teleporting it on to the battlefield and try to charge on first turn?
Spoiler:
AnomanderRake wrote:
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
The Vexilla Magnifica is good against just about anyone; it keeps you alive long enough to get into melee where your actual damage happens.
There isn't really much about Tau that pushes your builds one way or another; they're a gunline with reasonably effective chaff and hard targets packing a lot of firepower, you don't really need to tweak anything to handle them specifically. Things to worry about with Custodes:
--Drones: Tau Battlesuits (including some of the really big ones) can allocate incoming Wounds to drones; this is done per-wound rather than per-hit, so your multi-damage attacks aren't necessarily better-off shooting the drone than the battlesuit. Weaker shots into heavier battlesuits (staff-bolters that would wound a Riptide on a 5+ going into a 3+ modified armour save, for instance) and any single-damage shots (hurricane bolters, Allarus wrist grenades) should target the drones first, however. The drones interfere with any ranged alpha-strike potential that the beta rules' bigger guns offer; the Caladius and the las-talons on the Dreadnaughts are still useful, but use them carefully lest you find yourself wasting firepower on said drones.
--Markerlights: The aforementioned drone problem and our lack of long-range shooting makes clearing Pathfinders early more of a problem than it is for other armies. Stick hard to the Vexilla Magnifica on the first turn or two so their markerlights only hit you on 5+; they can still get markerlights through but you'll force them to burn command points on the Networked Markerlight stratagem. Keep in mind that Pathfinders are single-Wound T3/5+ models and task Vertus bolters with clearing them if possible. Remember that all these big scary non-Commander battlesuits are BS4+ with no rerolls if there aren't any Markerlights on the table.
--Fly and damage tables: Riptides, Ghostkeels, and the FW Riptide variants' BS goes down when they drop past half health; they may have Fly so you can't lock them in combat, but if you can deny them their Markerlights it's usually enough to cripple them.
--Deepstrike-chicken: Most of the time you want everything on the table immediately since your army needs to get a quick lead on damage to perform well, but Tau can and will hold fusion-suits to drop in and blast down some Custodians where you really don't want them to. There's not a huge amount you can do about it, but Tau are one of the few armies against which I'd actually recommend having a few Sentinel Guard (shield/blade Guard models) to interfere with said fusion-suits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: ...It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn...
One of the great things about the Vexilla Magnifica against Tau is that their Pathfinders are hitting with said Markerlights on a 5+. You don't stop them from getting 5 Markerlights, but you usually force them to burn CP on Networked Markerlights to do it and making their big suits hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ is still useful.
Thanks for your detailed answer. I think i will take one Vexillus Praetor. I was planning on taking the Caladius grav tank and maybe a LR to kill tanks, Riptides and so on. What do you think good idea or will the Tau kill the LR in turn one?
Deep striking it is a solid way of preventing the 1st turn destruction, but, you then have to make sure that you do enough damage in that first turn to reduce the threat. This goes for going up against most 40k armies, due to the ability of just falling back from combat.
2018/03/13 19:59:11
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Okay cool it is a fun game. First don't necessarily assume the Tau will be a gunline. Commandrone spam is still a thing! Tau can play very aggressively and are pretty mobile with all those suits hopping around. What you want is a lot of units held in deep strike reserve so you can react to how they deploy. If your opponent does bring gun line then drop everything in turn 1 as close as possible - they cannot get away then you charge the next turn. However also note Tau can deep strike a lot of units too. Probably two squads of jetbikes and two shield captains on jetbikes and you'll be fine. Anything you touch will die.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/13 20:04:32
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: Okay cool it is a fun game. First don't necessarily assume the Tau will be a gunline. Commandrone spam is still a thing! Tau can play very aggressively and are pretty mobile with all those suits hopping around. What you want is a lot of units held in deep strike reserve so you can react to how they deploy. If your opponent does bring gun line then drop everything in turn 1 as close as possible - they cannot get away then you charge the next turn. However also note Tau can deep strike a lot of units too. Probably two squads of jetbikes and two shield captains on jetbikes and you'll be fine. Anything you touch will die.
Have you not heard the new info GW released? Tau commanders is NOT a thing, they are 0-1 per detachment, you can only have 3 in Matched play here really soon.
It is still a thing until the new codex drops... chill bruh.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/13 21:33:53
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: It is still a thing until the new codex drops... chill bruh.
I would imagine all the discussion about counters to Tau in this thread would be in context to the new rules in the codex, seeing as it is a matter of days away.
Riptides with overcharged weapons look absolutely devastating against Custodes and Custodian accessories. Even if they're forced to hit on a 5+, the sheer number of shots and damage from things like an overcharged Heavy burst cannon will brutalise whatever unit that get shot at.
It will be a matter of how quickly can you shut them down if you're up against them. I imagine your opponent will screen them with the cheap-as troops options Tau now have so going for a charge out of deepstrike is probably off the table. I have been thinking about an expensive unit of 5-6 bikes all with salvo launchers, brought in via teleport. Even if you can't kill it ouright it will be much easier to bring down eventually. Not cost effective but its something. Just hope he doesn't have the 3++ Nova save up when you do it.
2018/03/13 21:39:38
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Not necessarily and even if my advice still stands... even with just three commanders Tau can be a highly mobile army. Remember their tanks have keyword Fly so they can hop up on top of buildings and such.
Amishprn86's question was ignorant IMO.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/13 22:43:21
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: Not necessarily and even if my advice still stands... even with just three commanders Tau can be a highly mobile army. Remember their tanks have keyword Fly so they can hop up on top of buildings and such.
Amishprn86's question was ignorant IMO.
WOW "Chill Bruh"
Why are you so hostile for me saying they can no longer be spammed? many dont know, its good to let people know new rules, you need to calm down.
I didnt attack you, i didnt call you names, i didnt say you were wrong in advice that tau can be fast, i said "You can not spam Commanders in new rules"
Lol are you seriously trolling me? Do you really think I am not aware of the pending new Tau codex and restriction on commanders. You need to dial down your rudeness.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/13 23:24:58
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Best tactical thread ever. The answer to everything is "moar bikes" right?
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/13 23:43:09
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Unfortunately it seems like all the discussion revolves around Shield Captains mounted on Dawneagles and the Vertus Preators.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/14 08:49:05
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Some updates after a recent game. Jetbikes were great as expected. I was hoping to run more, but due to a friend grabbing the wrong foam I was short by 2 for my intended list. Had to swap around models to make up the points (included a Trajann and cut Guard).
My biggest take away from my game vs Tyranids was that Jetbikes will draw almost all of the enemy fire. This allowed my Termies to run free and shell out some massive damage. Very excited to test out some more with the Allarus, gonna try to deep strike + Release the Lions in my next game to see how a “Voltron” style would play. May be playing 1000 Pts this weekend though, in which case I’ll be trying out 10 bikes as we both want to see how that goes.
2018/03/14 11:14:37
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I like that list... maybe you discovered something by accident.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/14 11:57:20
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Eihnlazer wrote: If your going pure, you really need 2 battalions for the CP.
Two!? How much CP are you spending? 1 works fine for me with a specialty detachment or two. 7-8 CP nets a fair amount of options (generally I use 1 Victor of the Blood Games, 1 Deep Strike and reserve the rest for situational).
2018/03/14 16:00:02
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
How many relics are you running? I typically take a 3++ for one of my captains.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/14 16:01:32
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
2 Battalions also requires a whole bunch of points wasted spent on Guard that could've gone elsewhere. Pretty sure I'm not a fan of that for an extra 2 CP.
2018/03/14 16:17:22
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
How many relics are you running? I typically take a 3++ for one of my captains.
I generally just take 1. The relic Vexilla aren't terribly exciting so I'm mostly bouncing around between Aurric Aquillus, Eagle's Eye and Praetorian Plate (I may not like Allarus as an elite unit but it's a completely worthwhile upgrade on a Shield-Captain).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MilkmanAl wrote: 2 Battalions also requires a whole bunch of points wasted spent on Guard that could've gone elsewhere. Pretty sure I'm not a fan of that for an extra 2 CP.
Yeah, precisely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/14 16:17:36
2018/03/14 16:40:42
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I run my AC as Vanguard and Smurfs as a battalion - if Marneus dies then I convert the jetbike Captain to WL with the SC trait.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/14 18:04:51
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: I run my AC as Vanguard and Smurfs as a battalion - if Marneus dies then I convert the jetbike Captain to WL with the SC trait.
Going allies opens up SO MANY doors. This is a good example of one of them. Allarus actually have a place with Ultramarines by being super terminators and the Ultras supply CP and 1st turn assault denial.
I've been running mine with AdMech at the moment. An Outrider of Custodes (Bike-Captain, 2 Bike Squads, Vexilla Praetor, 1 Caladius Tank) and a Battalion of AdMech (Dominus, Enginseer, 3 Skitarii Rangers, 2 Neutron Onagers). Still experimenting with the remaining flex points that leaves me at 2k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/14 18:05:04
2018/03/14 18:25:34
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
How do you like the Calidus tank? I can't until FW releases official rules. Admech seems like a great army to combine with Custodes... Neutron Onagers are sick!
My army half sets up in deep strike reserve so first turn I can drop everything in and overload a flank.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/14 19:18:48
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
We are starting an escalation league at 500 points. I am considering starting a Custodes army. Where would you suggest to start? Dont be afraid to explain why as well, I have very little knowledge about the army as I have only played a handful of games in my short gaming time and they were all with the waaaagh.
2018/03/14 19:33:40
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
Primark G wrote: How do you like the Calidus tank? I can't until FW releases official rules. Admech seems like a great army to combine with Custodes... Neutron Onagers are sick!
My army half sets up in deep strike reserve so first turn I can drop everything in and overload a flank.
That's a nice start!
My opinion of the Caladius has improved a lot over time. In the beginning, I thought it was really overcosted, but now I've decided it's only a little overcosted. It works great as a stationary, heavy gun for taking out vehicles/monsters.
Obviously, this isn't how it was meant to be used. It's a hover tank with fly, it should move and zoom, but that -1 to Hit penalty for moving is just brutal when lots of targets already have a -1 to Hit buff of their own. I sent an e-mail to Forgeworld recommending they add Power of the Machine Spirit at no extra cost (or a 5++). I feel this would bring it fully into line as a good, competitive pick within the Codex.
I also recommended they do both for a small points increase (to 335 or 350).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiderOrk wrote: We are starting an escalation league at 500 points. I am considering starting a Custodes army. Where would you suggest to start? Dont be afraid to explain why as well, I have very little knowledge about the army as I have only played a handful of games in my short gaming time and they were all with the waaaagh.
At 500 points you're basically stuck at a patrol detachment, but if you want to make a real competitive one try out a Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor, a Custodian Guard Squad (1 shield and 2 spears) and a Vexilla Preator with the Magnifica. Give the Captain and the Praetorian both Castellan Axes and Misericordias. Give the 2 spears Misericordias.
This should be about 447 points altogether. The axes let your Captain and Vexilla be anti-tank hunters, striking at S8 with AP-2 and 1D3 damage. The Vexilla gives your entire army -1 to be Hit to be safe from shooting. The spears and shield give you what most view as the most balanced Guard unit, with one model having a 3++ to soak the big wounds while the other two hit harder offensively at S6.
Your shooting is low in this list, about 4 Rapid Fire 1 shots, but they'll do 2 damage each so you can strip some armor. The shield gives you two pistol shots too. Every unit you have is also objective secured.
The Misericordias are the Custodes equivalent of chainsword. They cost points, but you get a bonus S5 AP-2 1 damage attack per model so helpful for clearing out more numerous armies.
Importantly, the Vexilla is a unit you'll want in any build you grow into while the Captain and Guard begin the path to opening up a battalion for the CP.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/14 19:51:25
2018/03/14 21:37:02
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I think grav tanks could make Custodes well rounded if FW does a great job.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/14 21:46:46
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
I agree and I have said before I hope they get a bit of a break.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/03/15 06:58:58
Subject: Codex Adeptus Custodes: By His will alone
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
