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@ Audustum -

Remember Allarus with Trajann are hitting on 2+ and wounding 2+ with rerolls for both (T2-T4) and burn 1 CP for T5-T7.

Audustum wrote:

Gryphonne wrote:
Can we realistically expect any changes with the coming FAQ? I feel pretty much all the Custodes units are overpriced, with the biggest offender being the Land Raider. The only unit priced pretty good is the bikes.

I'm hoping but it's doubtful cause we're new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
I don't think so since the codex is so new. Changes to points are only done in Chapter Approved.

We actually don't know if point changes are only CA. Just as many people say they'll be in both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
Trajann buffs to Custodes units is highly underrated and jetbikes are overrated. Allarus if properly used are one of the best units in the codex. I also happen to like Wardens since they can take axes - I run a Vanguard detachment by the way. Jetbikes are good but I wouldn’t build my army around them.

We went over the math on the bikes Vs. Allarus pretty darn thoroughly!

I don't think G cares about the math...

 Primark G wrote:
@ Audustum -

Remember Allarus with Trajann are hitting on 2+ and wounding 2+ with rerolls for both (T2-T4) and burn 1 CP for T5-T7.

And that's 500+ points to wound MEQs on a 2+ rerolling.

Let's, just for fun, compare Trajaan and a squad of 3 Allarus shooting and charging a squad of MEQs, as compared to 4 Vertus Praetors and a Captain on Dawneagle, all with bolters, doing the same.

502 points for Trajaan and the Allarus, versus 520 for the bikes. We'll give the Allarus each a Misericordia, to add 12 points and make it a little closer. 514 to 520.

Allarus get 6 shots with Axes and 6 with Grenades, doing 35/6 hits each.
Wounding on 4s rerolling 1s gives us 21/36 or 7/12 wounds per hit, for 245/72 wounds on each type of gun.
With a 4+ save on the axes, that's 245/144 dead, and a 6+ on the grenades gives us 1,225/432.
Trajaan Gets 2 shots, for 35/18 hits.
Wounds on 3s, rerolling 1s, for 28/36 or 7/9 wounds per hit, for 245/162.
With a 4+ save, that's 245/342.
Total damage in shooting? 245/144+1,225/432+245/342=1.70+2.84+.72=5.26 damage.
Close combat gets us 5 attacks from Valoris and 4 from each Allarus, hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s, rerolling, plus 4 attacks hitting on 2s, rerolling, and wounding on 3s, rerolling 1s. AP-2 on everything but Valoris' Axe, which is AP-3.
That's 35/3 hits with the Allarus Axes, 175/36 hits from Trajaan's Axe, and 35/9 hits from the Misericordias.
1,225/108 wounds on the Allarus Axes, 6,125/1,296 wounds from Trajaan's, and 245/81 wounds from the Misericordias. Total AP-2 wounds are (3,675/324+980/324) 4,655/324, and then 6,125/1,296 wounds at AP-3.
5+ saves multiply the -2 by 2/3, for 9,310/972, and then 6+ save multiplies Trajaan's Axe by 5/6, for 30,625/7,776.
Total damage in close combat? 9,310/972+30,625/7,776=9.58+3.94=13.52 damage.

TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
18.78

Now, to do the same for the Praetors and Captain.
60 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling, gives us 175/3 hits.
Wounding on 4s gives us 175/6 wounds.
A 3+ save gives us 175/18 unsaved wounds.
Total damage in shooting? 175/18=9.72 damage.
Close combat gets us 21 attacks, hitting on 2s, rerolling, for 245/12 hits.
Wounding on 3s, rerolling, gets us 8/9 wounds, for 490/27 wounds at AP-3.
With a 6+ save, that gets multiplied by 5/6, for 1,225/81 unsaved wounds.
Total damage in close combat? 1,225/81=15.12 damage.

TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FOUR VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
24.84

Nearly a third again better, on a more mobile, more durable chassis.

Even if we go one more round of close combat, somehow, that adds the same 13.52 to the Allarus, though it does drop the Praetors to only getting 11.34 more, for totals of 32.30 on Allarus+Trajaan to the Praetors 36.18.

It would take FOUR ROUNDS OF COMBAT for the Allarus to exceed the Praetors, assuming the combat lasts that long.

Admittedly, of course, you paid a whopping 6 more points.

And what are they fighting against? MEQs!?!?!



That is a total waste of resources... sorry you are total mathammer without any practical application.

 Primark G wrote:
@ Audustum -

Remember Allarus with Trajann are hitting on 2+ and wounding 2+ with rerolls for both (T2-T4) and burn 1 CP for T5-T7.

I'm sorry, what other T4 models are you referring to? Because there's no Stratagem that lets you wound T5-7 on 2s. There's a Stratagem to improve your AP to -3, but that doesn't affect wound rolls, now does it?

I don't have my codex with me (at work) but they have one for 1 CP that is +1 to wound.

 Primark G wrote:
I don't have my codex with me (at work) but they have one for 1 CP that is +1 to wound.

That is for Spears only.

I will have to check.

Anyways even so wounding on 3+ rerolling 1s is going to wreck face.

 Primark G wrote:
I will have to check.

Anyways even so wounding on 3+ rerolling 1s is going to wreck face.

Do you want me to run the math? Because I'm pretty sure it'll bear out that the Praetors are better. Pick a target.

Let's go with a squad of five Ogryns! Make the Ogryns as tough as possible.

 Primark G wrote:
Let's go with a squad of five Ogryns! Make the Ogryns as tough as possible.

Tough as possible? Ogryns near a Vexila Defensor, equipped with Slab Shields, and under the effects of Pyshic Barrier. 2++, so AP is totally moot.

Hitting is identical to before, so I won't repost that.

Allarus get 245/108 wounds with each gun. Trajaan gets 245/216 wounds.
With a 2+ save, that drops to 245/648, and 245/1,296. Then, damage 2 matters now, so multiply the damage on everything but grenades by 2.
Total damage shooting? (245/648)*3+(245/1,296)*2=1.13+.38=1.51 damage.
Close combat gives us 12 attacks on 2+ rerolling, then 3+ rerolling 1s, 4 attacks at 2+ rerollable, followed by 4+ rerolling 1s, and 5 attacks at 2+ rerollable twice in a row.
35/2 hits from Axes becomes 245/18 wounds, 35/9 Misericordia hits becomes 245/108 wounds, 175/36 Trajaan hits becomes 6,125/1,296 wounds.
With a 2+ save, you get 245/108 d3 damage wounds, 245/648 1 damage wounds, and 6,125/7,776 d3 damage wounds. Assume you roll 2s for all damage rolls, but no overkill ever.
Total CC damage? (245/108+6,125/7,776)*2+245/648=(2.27+.79)*2+.38=66.50 damage.

TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
8.01

Vertus Praetors get 175/3 hits which becomes 175/9 wounds.
With a 2+ save, that becomes 175/54.
Total damage shooting? 175/54=3.24 damage.
245/12 hits, wounding on 3s rerolling , gives us 490/27 wounds dealt.
With a 2+ save, that's 245/81 d3 damage (treated as 2) wounds unsaved.
Total CC damage? (245/81)*2=6.05 damage.

TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FOUR VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
9.29

Once again, the Praetors pull out ahead. In subsequent rounds, though, they drop to 4.54 damage a round of close combat, as opposed to 6.50 from the Allarus, so it takes...

Just one additional round for the Allarus to catch up. So, it's slightly more favorable to the Allarus, but I'd still prefer a unit that's both faster AND tougher AND does more damage in a round of shooting and charging.

As undeniably correct as you are JNA, you're barking up the wrong tree so to speak. This has all been done before multiple time in this thread.

Spartacus wrote:
As undeniably correct as you are JNA, you're barking up the wrong tree so to speak. This has all been done before multiple time in this thread.

Usually by me.

I like doing the math, though, so hey, might as well.

Okay thanks JNA - I feel like this example is valuable because Ogyrn are popular and a good target for Custodes to deal with. How about versus say a Baneblade chassis?

Allarus get 35/6 hits with each gun, and Trajaan gets 35/18 hits.
That becomes 245/1,296 wounds with each, except Trajaan, who gets 245/324.
At AP-1, D2, and AP-3, D1, that's 245/2,592 and 245/648 at D2, and 1,225/7,776 at D1.
Total damage in shooting? (245/2592+245/648)*2+1,225/7,776=(.09+.38)*2+.16=1.10 damage.
In close combat, you get 35/3 Axe hits, 175/36 Trajaan hits, and 35/9 from Misericordias.
That's 245/36 Axe wounds, 1,225/324 Trajaan wounds, and 35/27 Misericordia wounds.
With a 5+ save on all that except Trajaan, that's 245/54 Axe wounds, 70/81 Misiericrodia wounds, and 6,125/1,944 Trajaan wounds.
Total CC damage? (245/54+6,125/1,944)*2+70/81=(4.54+3.15)*2+.86=16.24 damage.

TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
17.34

Praetors get 175/3 hits.
175/18 wounds.
175/54 damage.
Total damage in shooting? 175/54=3.24 damage.
In close combat, they get 245/12 hits.
Wounding on 5s, rerolling, gets us 5/9 chance of wounding, for 1,225/108 wounds.
With -3 AP on all that, that's 6,125/648.
Total CC damage? (6,125/648)*2=18.90 damage.

TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FOUR VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
22.14

If I had to guess, though, it'd take only a single extra round to make up the difference. Double-checking that...

11.34 damage on each next round for Praetors, 16.24 damage for Allarus. So actually, they're basically equal round two (a difference of a tenth of a point of damage) and the Allarus do better round three.

Except there is no round 3. The Baneblade is dead by then.

Now, for bonus maths, I'm going to AnyDice, and checking the odds of them one-rounding this thing.

Allarus and Trajaan can one-round a Baneblade .15% of the time (26+ wounds), drop it to the bottom bracket 5.51% of the time (20+ wounds), drop it to the second bracket 52.95% of the time (13+ wounds). All percentages are INCLUSIVE, meaning the chance of not bracketing it at all are 47.05%.

Praetors and Captain can one-round a Baneblade 24.57% of the time (26+ wounds), drop it the bottom bracket 70.23% of the time (20+ wounds), drop it to the second bracket 97.80% of the time (13+ wounds). All percentages are INCLUSIVE, meaning the chance of not bracketing it at all are 2.20%.

Edit: Also, outside of Mathhammer, the Praetors are far, FAR more likely to be doing the charging and be in rapid fire range, since they're more than twice as fast.

That’s very interesting! Thanks again.

Dawneagles are more reliable for getting stuck in due to their amazing speed.

Allarus have a lot of dirty tricks up their sleeves.

Did you factor in rerolls 1s to wound for the Allarus?

 Primark G wrote:
That’s very interesting! Thanks again.

Dawneagles are more reliable for getting stuck in due to their amazing speed.

Allarus have a lot of dirty tricks up their sleeves.

Did you factor in rerolls 1s to wound for the Allarus?

Please elaborate. And yes, I did.

Okay thanks.

Some dirty tricks for Allarus Custodians:

Coming in from deep strike from the Vexilla Praetor in guaranteed charge range.

Using Balistus grenade launchers to prevent multiple units from firing Overwatch - really dirty versus T’au Yvharra (sp?).

Splitting into individual units (very situational).


Also Allarus synergize with Trajann very well with makes him that much more potent (imo).

Vexilla Teleport homer and Praetorian plate are the best way to make use of a large group of allarus terminators.

see this post for how the combo works: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/749151.page#9805195

 Primark G wrote:
Okay thanks.

Some dirty tricks for Allarus Custodians:

Coming in from deep strike from the Vexilla Praetor in guaranteed charge range.

Using Balistus grenade launchers to prevent multiple units from firing Overwatch - really dirty versus T’au Yvharra (sp?).

Splitting into individual units (very situational).


Also Allarus synergize with Trajann very well with makes him that much more potent (imo).

Requires the Vexilla Praetor first survive a turn out in the open. Considering that they're a T5 W5 (6) 2+/4++ model... Tough to remove, but hardly impossible. I mean, one good smite can technically achieve it, and on average, it takes only 3 or 4 Smite attempts to kill them. If you're facing, say, Marines with a couple Librarians, Guard with a few Psykers, Chaos with anything but Khorne... That trick will fail. Plus, that's a Turn 2 charge at the earliest. You know what else has a guaranteed Turn 2 charge? Vertus Praetors, since they can move up to 28" in that time. Also, this trick requires a whopping 3 command points.

Works on a max of one unit per Allarus-so, to prevent, say, 4 units from Overwatching, you'd need to spend 336 points and a command point. And, since you bring up Tau, you know what's a better defense against S5 guns than spending a command point to shut down overwatch? Being T6, like Vertus Praetors are. That's a 33% reduction in damage across the board.

You yourself note that this (2 command point, by the way) stratagem is situational. Because it is. It also weakens your other Allarus Stratagems, since now it only affects one at a time.

And you'll note that I recently did some math. Scroll up, go ahead, it's there. And it shows that Vertus Praetors with a Captain on Dawneagle outperform Allarus with Trajaan by a pretty significant margin-for just 6 points more.

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Vexilla Teleport homer and Praetorian plate are the best way to make use of a large group of allarus terminators.

see this post for how the combo works: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/749151.page#9805195

Wouldn't that take 6 Command Points? 3 for Swooping Dive, 3 for summoning the Allarus? And your sole Relic, unless you want to up that to 7 CP?

 Primark G wrote:
Okay thanks.

Some dirty tricks for Allarus Custodians:

Coming in from deep strike from the Vexilla Praetor in guaranteed charge range.

Using Balistus grenade launchers to prevent multiple units from firing Overwatch - really dirty versus T’au Yvharra (sp?).

Splitting into individual units (very situational).


Also Allarus synergize with Trajann very well with makes him that much more potent (imo).

The concussion grenades stratagem doesn't work against all the nasty Tau battlesuits unfortunately, they are not INFANTRY.

My Tau friend has yet to bring his Yvahra against my Custodes yet, I think on purpose, to let my fears build up to the point of being irrational... D:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Okay thanks.

Some dirty tricks for Allarus Custodians:

Coming in from deep strike from the Vexilla Praetor in guaranteed charge range.

Using Balistus grenade launchers to prevent multiple units from firing Overwatch - really dirty versus T’au Yvharra (sp?).

Splitting into individual units (very situational).


Also Allarus synergize with Trajann very well with makes him that much more potent (imo).

Requires the Vexilla Praetor first survive a turn out in the open. Considering that they're a T5 W5 (6) 2+/4++ model... Tough to remove, but hardly impossible. I mean, one good smite can technically achieve it, and on average, it takes only 3 or 4 Smite attempts to kill them. If you're facing, say, Marines with a couple Librarians, Guard with a few Psykers, Chaos with anything but Khorne... That trick will fail. Plus, that's a Turn 2 charge at the earliest. You know what else has a guaranteed Turn 2 charge? Vertus Praetors, since they can move up to 28" in that time. Also, this trick requires a whopping 3 command points.

Works on a max of one unit per Allarus-so, to prevent, say, 4 units from Overwatching, you'd need to spend 336 points and a command point. And, since you bring up Tau, you know what's a better defense against S5 guns than spending a command point to shut down overwatch? Being T6, like Vertus Praetors are. That's a 33% reduction in damage across the board.

You yourself note that this (2 command point, by the way) stratagem is situational. Because it is. It also weakens your other Allarus Stratagems, since now it only affects one at a time.

And you'll note that I recently did some math. Scroll up, go ahead, it's there. And it shows that Vertus Praetors with a Captain on Dawneagle outperform Allarus with Trajaan by a pretty significant margin-for just 6 points more.

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Vexilla Teleport homer and Praetorian plate are the best way to make use of a large group of allarus terminators.

see this post for how the combo works: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/749151.page#9805195

Wouldn't that take 6 Command Points? 3 for Swooping Dive, 3 for summoning the Allarus? And your sole Relic, unless you want to up that to 7 CP?

yep, but such is the price for getting a lot of points worth of stuff into a decent combat. consider that in using those 6cp you can often get a large unit of terminators in behind a screen the expenditure starts to make more sense.

The Vexilla Praetor is a character so you can hide him in the open.

 Primark G wrote:
The Vexilla Praetor is a character so you can hide him in the open.

BEHIND other units. In which case, you're not looking at an easy charge.

You’d be surprised how often it works.

Just fought Mortarion with Custodes for the first time. I think we talked about him before, but boy does this guy hurt. He got the charge off on two units of Custodian Guard (I needed Battalion CP), a Vexilla Praetor and a Shield Captain (note he only completed the charge against half and then got counter charged by the rest). Over 3 rounds of combat he killed almost all of them and only went down to about 50% HP.

Far less damage came from his actual attacks. It was mostly that 7" mortal wounds aura he has. That was averaging a good 6-8 mortal wounds per turn on all units combined.

Head over to www.twitch.tv/glasshammergaming to watch the Custodes take on necrons whilst I also give some tactical isnight during the game. There is also a previous game on the stream where Custodes take on blood angels and sisters which is a very close game!

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The Vexilla Praetor is a character so you can hide him in the open.

BEHIND other units. In which case, you're not looking at an easy charge.

I had the same discussion with Primark yesterday. Turns out he plays almost exclusively against assault armies so he just puts the Vexilla in his own line and the enemy comes into range to get deepstrike charged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:
Just fought Mortarion with Custodes for the first time. I think we talked about him before, but boy does this guy hurt. He got the charge off on two units of Custodian Guard (I needed Battalion CP), a Vexilla Praetor and a Shield Captain (note he only completed the charge against half and then got counter charged by the rest). Over 3 rounds of combat he killed almost all of them and only went down to about 50% HP.

Far less damage came from his actual attacks. It was mostly that 7" mortal wounds aura he has. That was averaging a good 6-8 mortal wounds per turn on all units combined.

When facing Mortarion you need to overwhelm him. Don't fight him with 5 Custodes, fight him with 15 (or more). As you noticed he needs to die in 1 turn.

I played against all kinds of armies not just melee armies. I do play against armies that are heavy melee oriented though... Chaos, Nidz, etc... these are common to most any meta.

 Ordana wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The Vexilla Praetor is a character so you can hide him in the open.

BEHIND other units. In which case, you're not looking at an easy charge.

I had the same discussion with Primark yesterday. Turns out he plays almost exclusively against assault armies so he just puts the Vexilla in his own line and the enemy comes into range to get deepstrike charged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:
Just fought Mortarion with Custodes for the first time. I think we talked about him before, but boy does this guy hurt. He got the charge off on two units of Custodian Guard (I needed Battalion CP), a Vexilla Praetor and a Shield Captain (note he only completed the charge against half and then got counter charged by the rest). Over 3 rounds of combat he killed almost all of them and only went down to about 50% HP.

Far less damage came from his actual attacks. It was mostly that 7" mortal wounds aura he has. That was averaging a good 6-8 mortal wounds per turn on all units combined.

When facing Mortarion you need to overwhelm him. Don't fight him with 5 Custodes, fight him with 15 (or more). As you noticed he needs to die in 1 turn.

Oh I know, but we were playing some local tournament's homebrew missions with progressive scoring per turn. End result being that I couldn't concentrate anymore units without just losing on primary objective points.