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Audustum wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
You can't spend 1CP to give the shield captain a relic though as you can only take relics from your warlord's army.

Aha, see the FAQ's (though I forget which one). You can use the Stratagem to give a relic for any faction as long as you have access to that faction's Stratagems. Doesn't matter if it's the same as the Warlord or not. The Warlord just gets a freebie.

I'd need a reference to that effect since the Codex specifically denies access if you lack a Warlord of that faction.

Death Guard FAQ.

Specifically clarifies it's allowed.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
You can't spend 1CP to give the shield captain a relic though as you can only take relics from your warlord's army.

Aha, see the FAQ's (though I forget which one). You can use the Stratagem to give a relic for any faction as long as you have access to that faction's Stratagems. Doesn't matter if it's the same as the Warlord or not. The Warlord just gets a freebie.

I'd need a reference to that effect since the Codex specifically denies access if you lack a Warlord of that faction.

I guess "everyone at the tournaments are doing it" wouldn't work? Hang on.

Internet says it's Codex: Deathguard.

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

If you want the logic it's because the Stratagem gives you explicit permission to take one and doesn't say anything about a Warlord. So following the rules of the stratagem, you can use it and get it. They're separate sections so they don't block each other.

Audustum wrote:

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.

Exalted.

Are sisters of silence a good allied choice? What about sororitas?

Or should allies probably be limited to guard and mechanicus?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.

Just be glad you can get the relics it’s not a big deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skhmt wrote:
Are sisters of silence a good allied choice? What about sororitas?

Or should allies probably be limited to guard and mechanicus?

SoB are top tier. They would make a great ally plus you can run the Saint.

Like an outrider with Celestine plus bodyguards, two inferno seraphim squads and a Dominion squad in a transport?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.

There’s times gw feths up the rules. This is not one of them. You just read a rule and assumed it meant more than it did, and well, YOU couldn’t possibly be wrong ong now could you?

Skhmt wrote:
Are sisters of silence a good allied choice? What about sororitas?

Or should allies probably be limited to guard and mechanicus?

Do you mean SoB or SoS? Cause the Silent Sisters are different and can't be fielded in detachments with the SoB.

SoB are, I guess O.K.-ish allies? They're lots of cheap power armor and anti-horde/melta. If you're not running bikes (who do great anti-horde with Hurricane Bolters) I could see a use.

Sisters of Silence are good allies, but currently limited by only having three options and no Codex. You're taking an Index ally and it shows. Hopefully they get more later.

stratigo wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.

There’s times gw feths up the rules. This is not one of them. You just read a rule and assumed it meant more than it did, and well, YOU couldn’t possibly be wrong ong now could you?

No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex. Don't get up on your high horse, GW has done this before where they just give a random ruling on something with disregard to the RAW.

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
Are sisters of silence a good allied choice? What about sororitas?

Or should allies probably be limited to guard and mechanicus?

Do you mean SoB or SoS? Cause the Silent Sisters are different and can't be fielded in detachments with the SoB.

Both/either, I wrote "sisters of silence" and "sororitas".

SoB are, I guess O.K.-ish allies? They're lots of cheap power armor and anti-horde/melta. If you're not running bikes (who do great anti-horde with Hurricane Bolters) I could see a use.

Sisters of Silence are good allies, but currently limited by only having three options and no Codex. You're taking an Index ally and it shows. Hopefully they get more later.

SoS seem like they can shore up the weakness against psykers and are cheaper than custodes, but perhaps not cheaper per wound in 2 out of 3 options. But the army doesn't need more CC ability and bolters and flamers aren't a huge help. But you can run an Astra Telepathica detachment rather than a purely SoS detachment and take some psykers for deny the witch, mortal wounds, and other stuff.

Skhmt wrote:
Like an outrider with Celestine plus bodyguards, two inferno seraphim squads and a Dominion squad in a transport?

That is perfect.

 mrhappyface wrote:

No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex.

The RAW doesn't say that.

It says, and I quote:

"If your army is led by a(n) <codex> Warlord, (then before the battle) you may give one of the following <relics/artefacts/etc> to a(n) <codex> CHARACTER (in your army)." Wording varies slightly from codex to codex, but the major parts are the same. For example, the Thousand Sons codex has the "then before the battle" and "in your army" parts, the Custodes codex has "in your army" but not "then before the battle", and the Necron codex only has "then before the battle" but not "in your army".

It doesn't say that a relic can only be taken if your warlord is from that codex, it says if you have a <codex> warlord, you can give a <relic/artifact/etc> to a <codex> character.

It doesn't restrict relics, it adds a free relic.

 mrhappyface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character? A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

Jesus Christ, I just keep finding more contradictory nonsense in these FAQs. Fine, GW has rolled their dice of "I didn't read the rules I wrote or even play this game so I'm going to let RNGesus decide how to answer this FAQ/how to balance this feature" and it has come out in favour of multi-faction relics. What a time to be alive.

There’s times gw feths up the rules. This is not one of them. You just read a rule and assumed it meant more than it did, and well, YOU couldn’t possibly be wrong ong now could you?

No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex. Don't get up on your high horse, GW has done this before where they just give a random ruling on something with disregard to the RAW.

So you’re unhappy because you can take the relics?

Skhmt wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex.

The RAW doesn't say that.

It says, and I quote:

"If your army is led by a(n) <codex> Warlord, (then before the battle) you may give one of the following <relics/artefacts/etc> to a(n) <codex> CHARACTER (in your army)." Wording varies slightly from codex to codex, but the major parts are the same. For example, the Thousand Sons codex has the "then before the battle" and "in your army" parts, the Custodes codex has "in your army" but not "then before the battle", and the Necron codex only has "then before the battle" but not "in your army".

It doesn't say that a relic can only be taken if your warlord is from that codex, it says if you have a <codex> warlord, you can give a <relic/artifact/etc> to a <codex> character.

It doesn't restrict relics, it adds a free relic.

It does put a restriction down:
If your warlord is of this faction then you may give a <CODEX> character in your army one of the relics. The stratagem then goes on to say you may have an extra relic, in the case of Custodes, that is one extra relic of Terra. Notice the specific wording: "one extra Relic of Terra", meaning that there had to be an initial Relic of Terra for you to use that stratagem, otherwise it would have just said something like: "Use this stratagem to give a character in your army a Relic of Terra (this is as well as any Relics or equiv. already in your army).

That is RAW. The first relic is free (if your warlord is of that faction) but the second comes as an extra to the first relic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
So you’re unhappy because you can take the relics?

I'm unhappy that GW disregards RAW and makes up their own interpretation rather than just errata the stratagem so that it works both RAW and RAI.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Skhmt wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

No, I read the RAW stated in every single Codex that a relic can only be taken if your Warlord is taken from that Codex.

The RAW doesn't say that.

It says, and I quote:

"If your army is led by a(n) <codex> Warlord, (then before the battle) you may give one of the following <relics/artefacts/etc> to a(n) <codex> CHARACTER (in your army)." Wording varies slightly from codex to codex, but the major parts are the same. For example, the Thousand Sons codex has the "then before the battle" and "in your army" parts, the Custodes codex has "in your army" but not "then before the battle", and the Necron codex only has "then before the battle" but not "in your army".

It doesn't say that a relic can only be taken if your warlord is from that codex, it says if you have a <codex> warlord, you can give a <relic/artifact/etc> to a <codex> character.

It doesn't restrict relics, it adds a free relic.

It does put a restriction down:
If your warlord is of this faction then you may give a <CODEX> character in your army one of the relics. The stratagem then goes on to say you may have an extra relic, in the case of Custodes, that is one extra relic of Terra. Notice the specific wording: "one extra Relic of Terra", meaning that there had to be an initial Relic of Terra for you to use that stratagem, otherwise it would have just said something like: "Use this stratagem to give a character in your army a Relic of Terra (this is as well as any Relics or equiv. already in your army).

That is RAW. The first relic is free (if your warlord is of that faction) but the second comes as an extra to the first relic.

The word "extra" means "added to an existing or usual amount or number" (Cambridge Dictionary) or "more than is due, usual, or necessary" (Mirriam-Webster Dictionary). If the usual amount is zero, having one relic is having an extra relic as 1 is greater than 0.

Skhmt wrote:
The word "extra" means "added to an existing or usual amount or number" (Cambridge Dictionary) or "more than is due, usual, or necessary" (Mirriam-Webster Dictionary). If the usual amount is zero, having one relic is having an extra relic as 1 is greater than 0.


If it said "you may take a second relic" instead of "extra relic", I'd agree with you.

From the rules discussion area of this website:

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
The word "extra" means "added to an existing or usual amount or number" (Cambridge Dictionary) or "more than is due, usual, or necessary" (Mirriam-Webster Dictionary). If the usual amount is zero, having one relic is having an extra relic as 1 is greater than 0.


If it said "you may take a second relic" instead of "extra relic", I'd agree with you.

From the rules discussion area of this website:

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

At the heart of the debate is the word "extra." As both English and American dictionaries agree on the definition, but you disagree with it, I fail to see how properly defining an essential word is out of bounds.

If the stratagem said "take a second relic... You may take a third relic if you pay 3CP", then you'd be right. But it says "take an extra relic... Take a second extra relic", which implies that the number of relics is not known. It's not known because you may be a non-warlord faction with zero, or a warlord faction with one, thus the wording covers both cases.

Well then the entire world and every major tournament this entire edition plays wrong.
Or your wrong.

You get 1 free relic of your warlords faction as explained in the codex and can buy extra relic for any faction you have stratagem access to as per the relevant stratagem and further explained in the Deathguard faq that was quote to you.

I'm thinking of a pure custodes army and I. Need of help. I don't want to go past 2000 points looking for a competitive army or as competitive as can be. Any suggestions on lists or what to buy?

Skhmt wrote:At the heart of the debate is the word "extra." As both English and American dictionaries agree on the definition, but you disagree with it, I fail to see how properly defining an essential word is out of bounds.

If the stratagem said "take a second relic... You may take a third relic if you pay 3CP", then you'd be right. But it says "take an extra relic... Take a second extra relic", which implies that the number of relics is not known. It's not known because you may be a non-warlord faction with zero, or a warlord faction with one, thus the wording covers both cases.

Or the definition of the word 'extra' is extremely broad and can be used to mean slightly different things in different contexts. I'd agree with you if it said "take an extra relic" but it is very specific that (in the case of Custodes) it is an "extra Relic of Terra".

And when exactly has 'extra' ever been used in a context where there were zero of the item in question before hand? If there are zero relics of Terra, you don't get an extra relic of Terra because you had no relics of Terra to begin with.

Ordana wrote:Well then the entire world and every major tournament this entire edition plays wrong.
Or your wrong.

You get 1 free relic of your warlords faction as explained in the codex and can buy extra relic for any faction you have stratagem access to as per the relevant stratagem and further explained in the Deathguard faq that was quote to you.

Please re-read the discussion because you clearly only read the last post without understanding what we're actually discussing.

It specifies the type of Relic because that is the faction you are paying CP for.
If it did not have that specificity I could use the Custodes stratagem to buy an Eldar relic.

Also this discussion should not be in there but in YMDC.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Or the definition of the word 'extra' is extremely broad and can be used to mean slightly different things in different contexts. I'd agree with you if it said "take an extra relic" but it is very specific that (in the case of Custodes) it is an "extra Relic of Terra".

By "relic" I meant "relic of Terra", it wasn't a shorthand to refer to any relic/artefact/etc. In previous posts, I wrote "relic/artefact/etc" to refer generically to that type of item.

And when exactly has 'extra' ever been used in a context where there were zero of the item in question before hand? If there are zero relics of Terra, you don't get an extra relic of Terra because you had no relics of Terra to begin with.

The rules don't bar you from taking relics, they just don't contain an option to do so if your warlord isn't custodes, so the number of relics isn't "not a number" or "undefined" or "false", it's "0". Extra is synonymous with additional in this case. 1 added to 0, or 1 extra over 0, is 1.

You can get a cheese pizza and add extra sausage and olives.

 Ordana wrote:
It specifies the type of Relic because that is the faction you are paying CP for.
If it did not have that specificity I could use the Custodes stratagem to buy an Eldar relic.

Yes it does. That doesn't change the fact that you can't have an extra relic of Terra without an original relic of Terra RAW.

The best thing to do is take it to YMDC and stop hijacking this thread so we can get back to you know - dawneagles.

Skhmt wrote:
By "relic" I meant "relic of Terra", it wasn't a shorthand to refer to any relic/artefact/etc. In previous posts, I wrote "relic/artefact/etc" to refer generically to that type of item.

I didn't think you meant that, I said I'd only agree with you if it said "extra relic".

The rules don't bar you from taking relics, they just don't contain an option to do so if your warlord isn't custodes, so the number of relics isn't "not a number" or "undefined" or "false", it's "0". Extra is synonymous with additional in this case. 1 added to 0, or 1 extra over 0, is 1.

You can get a cheese pizza and add extra sausage and olives.

Is this an American thing? In the UK I've never heard extra used in the context you're insinuating.

If there are zero of something and you add one of that something then that is an initial taking of that object not an extra. You get Cheese Pizza with sausage and olives not extra.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
By "relic" I meant "relic of Terra", it wasn't a shorthand to refer to any relic/artefact/etc. In previous posts, I wrote "relic/artefact/etc" to refer generically to that type of item.

I didn't think you meant that, I said I'd only agree with you if it said "extra relic".

The rules don't bar you from taking relics, they just don't contain an option to do so if your warlord isn't custodes, so the number of relics isn't "not a number" or "undefined" or "false", it's "0". Extra is synonymous with additional in this case. 1 added to 0, or 1 extra over 0, is 1.

You can get a cheese pizza and add extra sausage and olives.

Is this an American thing? In the UK I've never heard extra used in the context you're insinuating.

If there are zero of something and you add one of that something then that is an initial taking of that object not an extra. You get Cheese Pizza with sausage and olives not extra.

Yeah, in the U.S. we say extra like that all the time.

Take it to YMDC okay? Seriously you are beating a dead horse now.

That irony is hilarious.

I'll note, those of you running bikes, be aware of opponents like myself running Devastators now. I can reliably pump out 8 average mortal wounds into enemy bikes turn one, and then 4-5 every turn there after, from 36".