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 Cephalobeard wrote:
That irony is hilarious.

I'll note, those of you running bikes, be aware of opponents like myself running Devastators now. I can reliably pump out 8 average mortal wounds into enemy bikes turn one, and then 4-5 every turn there after, from 36".

How do devastators do that?

And you can command point one of those rolls for mortal wounds... good luck with that there’s basically no way to stop those wounds versus jetbikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skhmt wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
That irony is hilarious.

I'll note, those of you running bikes, be aware of opponents like myself running Devastators now. I can reliably pump out 8 average mortal wounds into enemy bikes turn one, and then 4-5 every turn there after, from 36".

How do devastators do that?

Take a Missile launcher and use the Flakk Missile strategem then use the Cherub to pop it again same shooting phase.

 Primark G wrote:
And you can command point one of those rolls for mortal wounds... good luck with that there’s basically no way to stop those wounds versus jetbikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skhmt wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
That irony is hilarious.

I'll note, those of you running bikes, be aware of opponents like myself running Devastators now. I can reliably pump out 8 average mortal wounds into enemy bikes turn one, and then 4-5 every turn there after, from 36".

How do devastators do that?

Take a Missile launcher and use the Flakk Missile strategem then use the Cherub to pop it again same shooting phase.

Well, you could just kill the devastators. It's not like they're particularly durable. The main gun on the Caladius averages 8.64 wounds against them when near a Captain even if they're in cover. A squad of bikes can also start at 37" away, move 14" in and then Hurricane Bolter them. One squad of Bikes with a Captain (24 shots at that range) should kill 2 Devastators (in cover no less). In your standard Outrider Detachment setup, the 3 bike squads and their Captain kill about 6 Devastators in cover and then can likely charge some other target.

All that being said, there's not much ANY Custodes force can do to stop MW output like that except kill the unit generating them. Allarus and Guardians will get shredded as easily as bikes if actually getting hit with that kind of power.

Well, no one is using a Caladius, so that's certainly not much of a concern. Beyond that, you can simply hide them in ruins and them move/fire the devastators. Consider Signum and Stratagem benefits, you largely ignore all penalties for moving.

That being said, yes, you can absolutely find a way to kill them. It's simply important for you to be aware of the threat.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, no one is using a Caladius, so that's certainly not much of a concern. Beyond that, you can simply hide them in ruins and them move/fire the devastators. Consider Signum and Stratagem benefits, you largely ignore all penalties for moving.

That being said, yes, you can absolutely find a way to kill them. It's simply important for you to be aware of the threat.

No one is using it because it's only beta rules for the caladius right now. Once the final rules hit, if they're similar to the beta rules, I'll probably be using one. The army really needs long range anti-tank.


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 Primark G wrote:

Take a Missile launcher and use the Flakk Missile strategem then use the Cherub to pop it again same shooting phase.

So they're burning 4CP for this every turn, 5 with a reroll?

Skhmt wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:

Take a Missile launcher and use the Flakk Missile strategem then use the Cherub to pop it again same shooting phase.

So they're burning 4CP for this every turn, 5 with a reroll?

In my opinion it's a useless spending of CP even with the last FAQ which boosts the battalion... As a Custodes player this sort of waste does not really frighten me... ^^

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, no one is using a Caladius, so that's certainly not much of a concern. Beyond that, you can simply hide them in ruins and them move/fire the devastators. Consider Signum and Stratagem benefits, you largely ignore all penalties for moving.

That being said, yes, you can absolutely find a way to kill them. It's simply important for you to be aware of the threat.

I use a Caladius

Right, I didn't feel like doing the math but with the bigger movement on the bikes they should be able to position outside maximum threat range of the devastators and then jump over on their own turn to shoot.

It's definitely something Custodes players need to be aware of though, you're right, because it'll wreck you the first time if they aren't.

Missile Launchers have a 48" threat range, so you'd be looking at needing LoS blocking terrain. Range is not something you can do.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Missile Launchers have a 48" threat range, so you'd be looking at needing LoS blocking terrain. Range is not something you can do.

He said 36" range in his initial post so that's what I'm working on. If he moves then it's 42" and then you need LoS to avoid it entirely with Hurricane Bolters, but at the stated 36" you can do it as the bikes will be threat range 38".

Not sure why he said 36", since Missile Launchers have a 48" range.

That being said, there are two solutions I see:

-LoS blocking terrain.
-MOAR BIKES!

A squad of Allarus terminators might be a decent idea to DS and take out devastators.

If they're not bubble-wrapped, and you can make a 9" charge.

Deep strike a banner in on T2 then whack them T3... seems a bit long though.

Another strategy is taking Celestine and trick them into killing her turn 1.

Hopefully she soaks up 5cp of flakk missiles, then DSs on revive next to the devastators.

Haha that always seems to work!!!

36" (and the additional 2d3 MW) comes from the heavy bolter strat in the other dev squad with a cherub.

It's also only 1 CP (can only use the strat once per phase and for some reason GW in their infinite wisdom thinks that once per phase really means once per activation...)

So dev squad 1 with missile + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +2 to hit mws and dev squad 2 with HB + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +1 to hit mws.

At least that is how I understand it. Now to find 170 points to fit those in my army...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not sure why he said 36", since Missile Launchers have a 48" range.

That being said, there are two solutions I see:

-LoS blocking terrain.
-MOAR BIKES!

Heavy Bolter, 36".

Need to be within range with 2 squads to activate both and double tap.


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bananathug wrote:
36" (and the additional 2d3 MW) comes from the heavy bolter strat in the other dev squad with a cherub.

It's also only 1 CP (can only use the strat once per phase and for some reason GW in their infinite wisdom thinks that once per phase really means once per activation...)

So dev squad 1 with missile + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +2 to hit mws and dev squad 2 with HB + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +1 to hit mws.

At least that is how I understand it. Now to find 170 points to fit those in my army...

Yes. Exactly this. It's 2 CP, with a CP battery likely (gaining it back on a 5+), to pump it out.

Ah, okay.

That makes more sense.

bananathug wrote:
36" (and the additional 2d3 MW) comes from the heavy bolter strat in the other dev squad with a cherub.

It's also only 1 CP (can only use the strat once per phase and for some reason GW in their infinite wisdom thinks that once per phase really means once per activation...)

So dev squad 1 with missile + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +2 to hit mws and dev squad 2 with HB + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +1 to hit mws.

At least that is how I understand it. Now to find 170 points to fit those in my army...

Sorry this still confused me.

Can you (or someone) explain with strategem names the exact order this happens?

I think you can only do it twice in one turn per strategem according to the updated BRB FAQ (see match play).

Skhmt wrote:

bananathug wrote:
36" (and the additional 2d3 MW) comes from the heavy bolter strat in the other dev squad with a cherub.

It's also only 1 CP (can only use the strat once per phase and for some reason GW in their infinite wisdom thinks that once per phase really means once per activation...)

So dev squad 1 with missile + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +2 to hit mws and dev squad 2 with HB + cherub + signum + 1 cp strat for 2d3 +1 to hit mws.

At least that is how I understand it. Now to find 170 points to fit those in my army...

Sorry this still confused me.

Can you (or someone) explain with strategem names the exact order this happens?

Flakk Missile (1 CP): Used when a <Chapter> Infantry model with a Missile Launcher fires at an enemy unit with the Fly keyword. Add +1 to the hit roll, and if the target is hit, you deal D3 Mortal Wounds instead of the normal damage.

Hellfire Shells (1 CP): Used when firing an Infantry model’s Heavy Bolter. Instead of firing normally, fire one shot and on a successful hit you deal D3 Mortal Wounds to the target.

You can activate the Armorium Cherub that allows the unit to fire again on the model who activated the stratagem. Per the most recent SM FAQ, they state this allows you to fire the user of this stratagem to shoot again.

By having two squads, 2 Cherubs, this allows you to activate one Flakk Missile, use the cherub on that squad, then activate the other squad for Hellfire Shells, then cherub that one.

Once you've fire the cherub to shoot twice, you're limited to doing this once per turn instead of twice.

ex:

Turn 1, you go first.

You are within 36" of a Custodes Bike Squad with 2 Devastator squads..

You elect squad 1 to fire it's heavy bolter at the bikes, as well as one missile. You activate the stratagem to turn the Missile into a Flakk Missile. After you fire, you activate the cherub to shoot twice.

You then to the reverse on squad 2.

After this, from turn 2 onwards, you can activate the stratagem on any of the 4 remaining options. (2 Bolters 2 Missiles)

From the FAQ:

Q: How do the Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells Stratagems
interact with an Armorium Cherub? Are you able to ‘reload’ the
weapon and fire again with the benefit of the Stratagem?

A: Yes.

(snip) this was a double post.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

...

Thanks, this makes sense. I was wondering how because I thought it was 4 flakk missiles, but you can only use each stratagem once per phase, so it didn't make sense. Using two devastator squads and using cherubs makes it work.

MWs seem to be the weakness of every elite army, and Custodes as an ultra elite army are even more hurt by them.

The only counter play with pure Custodes I can think of is a deepstrike with allarus terminators and shoot the devastators off the board and maybe get a charge off, or pray the Vexilla Magnifica saves you.

Hide turn 1, then come out of cover to focus all fire on them turn 2?

If you don't have screens, sure. Certainly a possibility.

Personally I always bring 3 squads of AM Infantry, so that's slightly less likely.

This edition really punishes elite armies, doesn't it.

Elite armies tend to be close combat focused, so it hurts even more.

Not necessarily for example look at eldar.

Guess it depends on your definition of elite. Custodes are bringing what, 20-25 models?

Eldar take that many Dark Reapers... and then the other 2/3s of their army.

Eldar also have the option to take 8 pt troops, which are very good. Custodes don't even have the option.

Eldar aren't an elite army. That's not even an argument.

Custodes, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc. Those are elite armies.

Custodes escape this crutch with allies. It's the reason why pure Custodes are not, comparably, competitive.

Eldar is one of the more elite armies, every unit is highly specialized. They are very well rounded too.