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From a purely competitive point of view for list building just take the three bike captains - two with 3++ and One with the 5+++ and reroll.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I think pure bikes was better when you could MSU them; now they are still good but it’s easier to dedicate all your firepower into a single squad. I think 3xshield captains is looking a lot better than I it was when I dismissed it before the FAQ.

I mean, you can still take 3 min bike squads. That's 810 points minimum. If you're taking allies that and abike Captain is proooobably a good allotment of points for your Custodes.

What do you think would be the better 1500 point list out of the two? Playing in a semi-competitive/semi-casual meta:

3x Shield Captain on Bikes
3x3 Custodian Guard with Spears
1x Vexilla with Magnifica and Spear
5x Allarus terminators with Axes

OR

1x Shield Captain on a Bike
1x Allarus Shield Captain
3x3 Custodian Guard with Spears
1x Vexilla with Magnifica and Spear
4x Allarus terminators with Axes
3x Vertus Praetors

Not looking to take out the Allarus terminators from either list as they seem to be fun to play with/model up

First one.

I like the first one better.

Thanks

Why the first one? Is it because the character rules allow the captains to be hidden, thus increasing survivability/flexibility? And also the larger Terminator blob means better usage of strategems?

I thought stock standard Vertus were meant to be more points efficient (90 points vs 160 points for Character, +1A, +2W)?

They're more points efficient, and they're better than the Terminators, but you're insistent upon using the Terminators.

As a result, it's better that you use the list that at least has 3 Captains, which are protected by the worse units you're bringing.

They can move up behind some of the guardians, who will act as the most expensive meat shields you'll ever bring, and then finally meet up with your terminators around turn 2-3.

Allarus are great yutang - if you haven't played them yet you are in for a real treat.

/thumbsup

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Ahh, the thread will be better now.

Haven't had to use this feature in a very long time.

Anyone have any upcoming GTs/RTTs? Any of you taking Bananas to the London Grand Tournament?

What are your lists looking like lately?

Got two tournaments coming up, One minor one 2000 points full beta rules forgeworld allowed, the other has 90+ people 2,000 points full beta rules, no forgeworld. Both lists are still up in the air mostly due to my practice partner stomping me with eldar, so far the basis of my list consists of 2-3 shield captains a 5-6 man bike squad and then struggling to figure out what to aid into the mix

Shinymarine wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Ahh, the thread will be better now.

Haven't had to use this feature in a very long time.

Anyone have any upcoming GTs/RTTs? Any of you taking Bananas to the London Grand Tournament?

What are your lists looking like lately?

Got two tournaments coming up, One minor one 2000 points full beta rules forgeworld allowed, the other has 90+ people 2,000 points full beta rules, no forgeworld. Both lists are still up in the air mostly due to my practice partner stomping me with eldar, so far the basis of my list consists of 2-3 shield captains a 5-6 man bike squad and then struggling to figure out what to aid into the mix

If my experience leads me to want to suggest anything:

An AM Battery is always great. Everyone likes to spam stooping dive.

I super, super, super love adding Blood Angels. Be it a Supreme Command of Captains, or just a small Battalion with Scouts and extra items, it's never served me wrong.

My custodes are always allied with a mix of Blood Angels or AM, or both.

One of my best friends won a GT on the east coast last weekend using Custodes-IG-BA combo. He just had the three bike-cpts for his Custodes.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Shinymarine wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Ahh, the thread will be better now.

Haven't had to use this feature in a very long time.

Anyone have any upcoming GTs/RTTs? Any of you taking Bananas to the London Grand Tournament?

What are your lists looking like lately?

Got two tournaments coming up, One minor one 2000 points full beta rules forgeworld allowed, the other has 90+ people 2,000 points full beta rules, no forgeworld. Both lists are still up in the air mostly due to my practice partner stomping me with eldar, so far the basis of my list consists of 2-3 shield captains a 5-6 man bike squad and then struggling to figure out what to aid into the mix

If my experience leads me to want to suggest anything:

An AM Battery is always great. Everyone likes to spam stooping dive.

I super, super, super love adding Blood Angels. Be it a Supreme Command of Captains, or just a small Battalion with Scouts and extra items, it's never served me wrong.

My custodes are always allied with a mix of Blood Angels or AM, or both.

Second this. Running a Custodes outrider with a IG and a BA battalion myself aswell. Working pretty good sofar.

What is your BA detachment?

 Ordana wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Shinymarine wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Ahh, the thread will be better now.

Haven't had to use this feature in a very long time.

Anyone have any upcoming GTs/RTTs? Any of you taking Bananas to the London Grand Tournament?

What are your lists looking like lately?

Got two tournaments coming up, One minor one 2000 points full beta rules forgeworld allowed, the other has 90+ people 2,000 points full beta rules, no forgeworld. Both lists are still up in the air mostly due to my practice partner stomping me with eldar, so far the basis of my list consists of 2-3 shield captains a 5-6 man bike squad and then struggling to figure out what to aid into the mix

If my experience leads me to want to suggest anything:

An AM Battery is always great. Everyone likes to spam stooping dive.

I super, super, super love adding Blood Angels. Be it a Supreme Command of Captains, or just a small Battalion with Scouts and extra items, it's never served me wrong.

My custodes are always allied with a mix of Blood Angels or AM, or both.

Second this. Running a Custodes outrider with a IG and a BA battalion myself aswell. Working pretty good sofar.

That's my exact detachment build. Wouldn't leave home without it.

I am planning to work in some new DW.

What do BA bring to the table that Custodes don't already have and IG can't provide?

I use IG for cheap CP, regaining CP, psyker defense, cheap obsec units, and some added anti-infantry fire. I could shift more points their way for anti-tank fire, but haven't gotten to it yet.

BA are a toolbox of options.

Primarily, it gives you:

Scouts.
Cheap, high STR multiple attack characters (captains)


A slambo is 114-129pts and gives you 4-5 (base, can drastically increase) s8 ap-4 d3 damage attacks on the charge, with +1 to wound, while also having fly and a 12" move.

They are the unstoppable force to compliment the immovable object.

 Primark G wrote:
What is your BA detachment?

My current list. Note that this is in preparation for a tournament without the beta rules. (only a small change needed)



BA gives scouts which are invaluable for denying table space and the Captain which is a scalpel equipped with a hammer that just removed threats from turn 1 on and demands an answer while costing minimal points.

Hey Ordana I really like Scions detachment! It looks like a really solid list. I would play test the Bassie.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
BA are a toolbox of options.

Primarily, it gives you:

Scouts.
Cheap, high STR multiple attack characters (captains)


A slambo is 114-129pts and gives you 4-5 (base, can drastically increase) s8 ap-4 d3 damage attacks on the charge, with +1 to wound, while also having fly and a 12" move.

They are the unstoppable force to compliment the immovable object.

While the captains are cheap and kill lots, they basically do what Custodes already do well, be flying melee beasts.

Shouldn't allies fill gaps in capability? Or are you more of the opinion that the entire army should be dedicated to flying and stabbing/smashing, and the rule of 3 limits you?

My feeling is that 3 Bike Captains ought to be enough for the most part.

Skhmt wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
BA are a toolbox of options.

Primarily, it gives you:

Scouts.
Cheap, high STR multiple attack characters (captains)


A slambo is 114-129pts and gives you 4-5 (base, can drastically increase) s8 ap-4 d3 damage attacks on the charge, with +1 to wound, while also having fly and a 12" move.

They are the unstoppable force to compliment the immovable object.

While the captains are cheap and kill lots, they basically do what Custodes already do well, be flying melee beasts.

Shouldn't allies fill gaps in capability? Or are you more of the opinion that the entire army should be dedicated to flying and stabbing/smashing, and the rule of 3 limits you?

I agree with you and that is why I take SM for shooting and psy. What I see about these lists is it is all EZ mode.

Skhmt wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
BA are a toolbox of options.

Primarily, it gives you:

Scouts.
Cheap, high STR multiple attack characters (captains)


A slambo is 114-129pts and gives you 4-5 (base, can drastically increase) s8 ap-4 d3 damage attacks on the charge, with +1 to wound, while also having fly and a 12" move.

They are the unstoppable force to compliment the immovable object.

While the captains are cheap and kill lots, they basically do what Custodes already do well, be flying melee beasts.

Shouldn't allies fill gaps in capability? Or are you more of the opinion that the entire army should be dedicated to flying and stabbing/smashing, and the rule of 3 limits you?

They're different.

A Custodes bike captian is a tank. At only s6, but 7 wounds, t6 and likely 3++, he exists to weather the storm and play the long game.

My BA captains are 114pts and delete a high value targetevery turn, at s8. Don't forget, you can do all of these in one turn with a BA Captain:

5 attacks base, +d3 attacks from a Stratagem, charge 3d6, ignore overwatch, fight twice, fight again if they die, etc.

As mentioned earlier, a BA Captain is the scalpel. You use it to remove the model you don't want on the table.

BA and CA are both CP hungry and it requires a lot to make the BA-Cpts do all those things.

You're on my ignore list, but for the millionth time I'll give you the benefit of a doubt here:

We're discussing this strictly in the context of an army using AC, AM, and BA.

This army has, at least, 14cp.

You have a CP battery.

An AC Captain is not terribly CP hungry, in the slightest. The BA Captain exists to use those CP to remove the high toughness threats that the AC cannot as easily deal with.

That fills a gap you would not generally have, list depending. See: context of this discussion.

Man you are so rude.

Yeah if your running BA and CA you 'need' IG for the 5+ recursion.

That is very true. I have to post my friend’s list that won the GT.

Some points -

While this sub-forum is all about tactics it is not all about one army list. Contrary to some opinion there are many ways to field Custodes. We should be open to what people want to play and not espouse only one way. The meta changes quickly now compared to other editions. It is okay to think of feel your way is best but is only that - your opinion.

There are many different ways to play Custodes and there is no one right way.

And to your point, primark...people for the last several comments have been discussing the merits of BA and AM allies. There have been many lists and tactics posted on this thread and a lot of feedback given. That being said, if someone asks “what should I take in this list” I’m going to reccomend what I think is the best unit or combination of units for the job; considering points costs, durability, and damage with mathhammer if necessary to back it up. I’m not going to reccomend a sub-par or inefficient choice if a better one exists because if someone wants criticism of their army they probably want to win and in 40K you can’t just take whatever you want and be guaranteed that outcome. If someone wants to know how to use a particular unit, fine; I’ll make recommendations on how to best use it if you’re committed to having it in your army for whatever reason. That’s just how I personally approach “tactics” discussions in regards to 40K, but I’m sure others have a similar take.

Are Wardens ever a viable choice, or do Allarus terminators always do better?

Wardens are slightly less durable (one less wound but they gain 6+++), are forced to take a Misericordia, are strictly worse in shooting, and don't have a free teleporter. Allarus terminators also have access to three unique stratagems. But they also cost just 25 pts more (88 vs 63) for an apples to apples comparison, both with axes and knives. While this seems like far more points, it's about the same cost per wound (22 vs 21 points per wound), and you double shooting out put for ~33% point increase.