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 Necros wrote:
I went to Greece many moons ago, I remember the first restaurant we stopped at we tipped 20% and when we were about to leave they suddenly brought us out free deserts and fancy sweet after diner wine. Apparently at the time 5% was a lot.

Thats awesome.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 xKillGorex wrote:
Been a waiter myself many years ago. As a customer and on the other side of the fence I think a tip is due only when a good service is given.
People shouldn’t expect anything as a given.

I'm also going to America for Adepticon; if anyone there asks for a tip without earning it, I'll tell them where they can stick it.

Good luck being a tough guy in Chicago, buddy. Also, people aren't likely to ask for a tip. At Adepticon you'll have tip jars at the food and drink vendor booths, and of course if you dine at the hotel or go outside and dine at a restaurant you'll have the option to tip on your bill via credit card or cash, but it isn't like servers are hitting people up for spare change like the homeless.

Also, what about being a good visitor and following a country's customs? Something to consider.

But sure, bring that chip on your shoulder and I am sure you will get GREAT service.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
In the US there general rule is 15-20%. I'd pick a number in that range based on how pleased you are with your service, dipping under it only in the extreme cases of very bad service.

Usually you'll just add the amount to your bill, either in cash or as part of the receipt if paying with a card (there will be a blank space where you can write down an amount). If you pay with cash, you can say "keep the change" as a way of letting the server know that everything over the bill amount is their tip. Just don't forget the actual tip obviously XD

Entirely agree with this.

Thirded; also be aware that if you pay with your card for the tip it gets auto-reported to the company and in some places they take a 'cut' of it themselves.

If you have a really great server who you felt did a great job and made your experience memorable? Tip them with cash instead of card.

 Kanluwen wrote:


If you have a really great server who you felt did a great job and made your experience memorable? Tip them with cash instead of card.

This advice can be extended to any small business. Debit and credit card companies usually charge a small fee to independent businesses for the "convenience" of using their service. This cuts into the already slim profit margin the owner is making on your sandwich.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Good luck being a tough guy in Chicago, buddy.

Thanks for the sarcasm mixed with "you're gonna get f**ed up mate" that misses the point entirely.

Also, people aren't likely to ask for a tip. At Adepticon you'll have tip jars at the food and drink vendor booths, and of course if you dine at the hotel or go outside and dine at a restaurant you'll have the option to tip on your bill via credit card or cash, but it isn't like servers are hitting people up for spare change like the homeless.

Note how I said "if" someone asks rather than "when" someone asks for a tip. I'm not making a generalisation that people will ask for one (you shouldn't ever ask for a tip unless you've judged your customer well, and are cocksure enough to ask upfront to charm them into giving you one, regardless of who/where you are), nor am I closing my wallet to anyone there who does give me good service. Again, missing the point that I was making about getting tips without earning it.

Also, what about being a good visitor and following a country's customs? Something to consider.

If a country had a custom where you had to pay a pound/dollar to everyone you said hello to on the street, would you abide by that custom?

I have no intention of being a poor visitor, but local customs should only be respected if they're within reason. Having a "second invisible bill" as Ashiraya put it earlier, without earning it, is not a reasonable custom to have.

But sure, bring that chip on your shoulder and I am sure you will get GREAT service.

You're assuming that I'm just going to be an arsehole to people who have dealings with me there as opposed to responding to something that would be considered to be very rude where I come from. But yes, I'm sure I'll have great service if anyone there has the same kind of attitude as yourself*


* yes I'm aware of the irony of countering sarcasm with sarcasm

 xKillGorex wrote:
Been a waiter myself many years ago. As a customer and on the other side of the fence I think a tip is due only when a good service is given.
People shouldn’t expect anything as a given.

I think you are overlooking the context of the thread; in the UK servers are paid reasonable money, i.e. at least minimum wage. In the states, where OP is headed to, they can be paid significantly less than that and are expected to make up their wage with tips.

I agree in the UK, tip when it is deserved; a bonus for excellent service. In the US it is a different situation, you aren't providing the bonus with a tip, you are filling the basic wage.


Is that right amerikkas?

General Annoyance, no, I understood your points and was making a joke at your "internet tough guy" stance on someone who asks for a tip. Quit your bs and you won't get called out.

And stop with the strawman that Americans tip servers who "don't earn it." Servers generally kiss your ass and bend over backwards here in America and that is because they are gunning for a tip. So again, it isn't like servers are walking around with their hands out asking something for nothing.

Now, on to your other nonsense:

 General Annoyance wrote:
[If a country had a custom where you had to pay a pound/dollar to everyone you said hello to on the street, would you abide by that custom?

I have no intention of being a poor visitor, but local customs should only be respected if they're within reason. Having a "second invisible bill" as Ashiraya put it earlier, without earning it, is not a reasonable custom to have.

Bad analogy. A generally accepted tipping policy for servers and waitstaff is not the same as needing to pay everyone who greets you. And it sounds like you do have an intention of being a poor visitor because you are overtly hostile to a tradition that you find unreasonable but the majority of your host country finds acceptable, reasonable, and earned. That says to me you probably won't tip. But whatever, enjoy your trip to Chicago!

I look at some tipping as a grab, though. Sure, I will tip when I have been served, but when I order food to go and go to the counter to pick it up and pay, the tip I may usually contribute a buck or so or even nothing to places i go all the time, since I tip the staff well when I go in to sit down. The counter people at some places with the tip jars, those can be up to you if you want to throw in your change or if the person really deserves it - afterall, that jar is going to be split among everyone.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 xKillGorex wrote:
Been a waiter myself many years ago. As a customer and on the other side of the fence I think a tip is due only when a good service is given.
People shouldn’t expect anything as a given.

This. I only give a tip when someone's earned it, and when they've earned it, it's usually a tenner and a big thank you on my way out. Expecting a tip without any effort put in is not something I'll be part of.

I'm also going to America for Adepticon; if anyone there asks for a tip without earning it, I'll tell them where they can stick it.

That's fine. However, if you tell the person handling your food where to stick it, he might just stick it there.

Really I shouldn't be replying to this since you've broken Rule No. 1, and the best thing to do with that is to click the triangle of friendship and move on. But I suppose I should set some things straight before you make other people gain a false impression of me who I may actually be meeting with over there.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
General Annoyance, no, I understood your points and was making a joke at your "internet tough guy" stance on someone who asks for a tip.

Internet tough guy? You have looked at my avatar, right? Or even my profile?

My friend, I'm just a kid who wants to go and see more of the world. I've seen a fair amount already, and I consider myself to be a good and reasonable traveller whenever I can be. I certainly don't plan on tarnishing my holiday by making people who are less fortunate miserable for serving me food and drink. Responding to someone here who asks for a tip which hasn't been earned, and most places that I have been, would be similar to what I've said. Or it would be a shake of the head with the expression of "are you having a laugh" on your face. That or you just pay your bill quietly and leave with no tip. Depends on the Brit.

Quit your bs and you won't get called out.

The bit in question that's breaking Rule no.1. Not much to add here other than "no?".

And stop with the strawman that Americans tip servers who "don't earn it." Servers generally kiss your ass and bend over backwards here in America and that is because they are gunning for a tip. So again, it isn't like servers are walking around with their hands out asking something for nothing.

I don't recall using this point of argument - that was meant to be a general thing to abide by, anywhere in the world. I've been to a lot of places; Shanghai, Sri Lanka, even lived in Dubai and Qatar for 9 years. Left plenty of tips in that time, but I don't agree with the concept that I somehow owe my server something by simply visiting; I've paid my bill for the food, anything extra is payment of goodwill, not something that should be expected, even if customs in America say that it is expected.

However, a much more reasonable Dakkanaut reached out by PM because of this little chat, and I understand now (combined with what people have already said) that pay for servers in America is pretty abysmal, so the norm should be "tip very well for good service, tip for average, tip poorly for poor" as opposed to "tip well for good service, leave a pound or 2 for average, don't tip at all for poor" that would be the norm in the UK. With that context, I reckon I have more insight on my decisions there, and I suppose that answers the question of the thread quite well too.

Bad analogy. A generally accepted tipping policy for servers and waitstaff is not the same as needing to pay everyone who greets you. And it sounds like you do have an intention of being a poor visitor because you are overtly hostile to a tradition that you find unreasonable but the majority of your host country finds acceptable, reasonable, and earned. That says to me you probably won't tip. But whatever, enjoy your trip to Chicago!

It's basically the same if it hasn't been merited by anything, which would be how it is here (see above on that, however). If I accept your previous point of "Servers generally kiss your ass and bend over backwards here in America and that is because they are gunning for a tip" (which I do), then there is no reason at all for not tipping that, and tipping well. My problem is only when it's not earned, and that's not a jab at Americans, that's anywhere where you feel that their service isn't tip-worthy.

But yes, assume I'll keep my wallet shut while I'm there. I'll do my best to prove otherwise.


G.A



Edited for double post

To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

How about this: instead of thinking of tipping as an invisible second bill, think of it as a tax, or maybe a curious taboo where restaurants write only 82% of the actual price on a bill.

 Ouze wrote:
To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

Indeed. You do a job, you get paid fairly for it, and minimum wage applies. If the server gives poor service, they get fired. If they give good service, they keep their job and are compensated at the agreed rate just like anywhere else. I really don’t think tip/commission work where base pay is below “minimum” should exist.

 Ouze wrote:
To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

Indeed. It turns out it's racist anyways, you guys.

Dutch people almost never seem to give tips. And if they do, it is never more than 10%. And they consider that a lot already. Dutch people just hate spending money.
That said, in all of Europe I think tips over 10% are rare. And in many cases, the tip is already included as part of the bill.

 feeder wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

Indeed. It turns out it's racist anyways, you guys.

Nothing racist about it. It is not like that is the origin of tipping. It is much older than that, older than the US even. Tipping is something that started in the middle ages and it was a widespread custom in eating establishments across Europe by the 18th century.

 Ouze wrote:
To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

As someone who has worked as a waiter, cook, manager, and owner of a restaurant, I can tell you this: Anyone worth their salt as wait staff will give your plan the big middle finger. My store is in a small town in rural Iowa, yet good wait staff makes BANK for 30 to 35 hours per week. I start my employees off at $4.50 per hour (that's for a know-nothing, no experience, snot nosed 16 year-old) and will be more for more talented and experience people. My top waitress is at $8.50 per hour. What my top waitress records as her tips (and no wait staff EVER records all their earnings) is about $175 per week. So, realistically, she's making over $15 per hour. That's more than my managers. And no, there is no "common tip jar" to be evenly divided. Someone that busts their butts deserves more than someone that sits on theirs.

In all honesty, I've had waitresses demand raises because they don't make enough in tips. I then have to remind them that they make tips by waiting on people, not passing off their tables to other wait staff so they can text on their cell phones. You want money, take care of your customers, be courteous, be prompt, be accurate. That's really all it takes.

So, I grew up working in a restaurant. Thank Bacchus I have a real job now.

Wait staff don't make anything, really, as people have said. They're virtually dependent on tips to survive. Having that been said, tipping is stupid and weird.

Here's how I reconcile it in my head: Restaurants offer no employees to take your order, (re-)fill your drinks, or bring your food out to you. Kind strangers who are entirely willing to do this, however, happen to be at every restaurant across the country. They do this for basically no charge, out of the goodness of their hearts. As such, I kinda feel like they've earned any amount of money I'm willing to give them, and since they're doing stuff for free, they've probably earned something.

Being as I recall being a starving young adult trying to get by on wait-staff wages, my personal rule is 20% of the bill if they've done a reasonable job. That's NOT attending me instantly if I snap my fingers. That's my drink mostly staying full, my order being reasonably prompt and accurate, and not being a total donkey-cave if I happen to ask a question. That tip will drop down to as little as 10% if you piss me off, but you'd probably have to literally spit in my food in front of me to piss me off that much. I think there was only once in my life I ever tipped less than that, and I made a terror out of myself to the manager on my way out. I don't like doing that.

On the flipside, if you're awesome, I'll go up to 30%-50% depending on the situation and the service. Back when I lived downtown, I got on pretty good terms with quite a few of the local bartenders, they'd give me a few of my drinks free, and I'd count about half the drink on the tip. My girlfriend and I went out for her birthday over the last weekend to a trendy new place that had vegan food (her primary draw to it) and they had TWO people waiting on us. They also put up with her questions about all the food and were super cool about it. I gave them 40%, because I was a little unsure of how the tip splitting worked and didn't want to be awkward and ask. It was a weird situation, but ultimately, it was easily in the top 10 times I've been waited on, so regardless, I felt they deserved it.

It's a really complicated system, because as I think about it, there's the chain counter places, fast food, and food trucks. Fast food and the 'chain counter places' I don't tip. These are the places like Qdoba or Chipotle where you get up to get everything, yet they still have a tip jar. Uh-uh. I don't do that. Food trucks I'll usually chip in a buck or two, but they're not doing anything much other than cooking my food, so I don't know if I'm justified or otherwise there.

My biggest blind spot are delivery guys. I'll give them 20% if they get the food there in a reasonable manner, and usually the way they react indicates that it might be too much, but I find that my pizzas get delivered consistently fast after the first one or two unless its a new guy.

My general tipping scale is dependent on the type of place I'm at. Fast food and buffet get nothing usually. Simple diners are about 15%, Olive Garden type restaurants (want to be classy, but still not quite there) are about 18%, with really nice places about 22%.

This will then be modified depending on quality of service.

Literally the best service I ever got was at an Olive Garden. Our waiter never let our drinks be empty, knew how to be friendly without talking too much, anticipated our other needs, and kept a professional demeanor about himself despite being swamped with people. My bill was about $50, and I felt completely justified giving him a $100 and telling him to keep the change.

On the other hand, one waitress I had once ignored me, took 20 minutes to take my order (it was 3pm, so not a busy time), had to have my food remade because she relayed the wrong menu item, never got a drink refill even after asking, my food was cold by the time I got it, and openly disparaged another customer within my earshot (likely the other customer heard too). I left nothing.

 General Annoyance wrote:

And stop with the strawman that Americans tip servers who "don't earn it." Servers generally kiss your ass and bend over backwards here in America and that is because they are gunning for a tip. So again, it isn't like servers are walking around with their hands out asking something for nothing.

I don't recall using this point of argument - that was meant to be a general thing to abide by, anywhere in the world. I've been to a lot of places; Shanghai, Sri Lanka, even lived in Dubai and Qatar for 9 years. Left plenty of tips in that time, but I don't agree with the concept that I somehow owe my server something by simply visiting; I've paid my bill for the food, anything extra is payment of goodwill, not something that should be expected, even if customs in America say that it is expected.

You don't recall making that argument? Here:

 General Annoyance wrote:


If a country had a custom where you had to pay a pound/dollar to everyone you said hello to on the street, would you abide by that custom?

I have no intention of being a poor visitor, but local customs should only be respected if they're within reason. Having a "second invisible bill" as Ashiraya put it earlier, without earning it, is not a reasonable custom to have.

What is irksome with your approach to this topic, besides your ridiculous initial tough guy act, is that you are leveling a criticism about a cultural aspect of the US (wide spread acceptance of tipping) without really having a reason to do so. As you indicate below you accept that servers in America generally go out of their way to earn their tips yet your initial post made much ado about sticking it to someone who had the imaginary audacity to ask for a tip when they didn't "earn" it. To me that is just juvenile posturing and trying to take a dig at a custom you seem to have a problem with. And don't say you don't have a problem with tipping as you said yourself you view it as a "second invisible bill."

 General Annoyance wrote:
However, a much more reasonable Dakkanaut reached out by PM because of this little chat, and I understand now (combined with what people have already said) that pay for servers in America is pretty abysmal, so the norm should be "tip very well for good service, tip for average, tip poorly for poor" as opposed to "tip well for good service, leave a pound or 2 for average, don't tip at all for poor" that would be the norm in the UK. With that context, I reckon I have more insight on my decisions there, and I suppose that answers the question of the thread quite well too.

So, it took a PM from someone for you to understand something pointed out in post #3 of this thread? Okay. Read the thread next time?

 General Annoyance wrote:

Bad analogy. A generally accepted tipping policy for servers and waitstaff is not the same as needing to pay everyone who greets you. And it sounds like you do have an intention of being a poor visitor because you are overtly hostile to a tradition that you find unreasonable but the majority of your host country finds acceptable, reasonable, and earned. That says to me you probably won't tip. But whatever, enjoy your trip to Chicago!

It's basically the same if it hasn't been merited by anything, which would be how it is here (see above on that, however). If I accept your previous point of "Servers generally kiss your ass and bend over backwards here in America and that is because they are gunning for a tip" (which I do), then there is no reason at all for not tipping that, and tipping well.

Great, tip your servers! Glad we got that sorted, enjoy Adepticon!

Ouze wrote:To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

Don't stores in the US exclude taxes from their displayed prices too (and you have to add them when buying stuff)? That's the same just legalised and without the social contract.

cuda1179 wrote:As someone who has worked as a waiter, cook, manager, and owner of a restaurant, I can tell you this: Anyone worth their salt as wait staff will give your plan the big middle finger. My store is in a small town in rural Iowa, yet good wait staff makes BANK for 30 to 35 hours per week. I start my employees off at $4.50 per hour (that's for a know-nothing, no experience, snot nosed 16 year-old) and will be more for more talented and experience people. My top waitress is at $8.50 per hour. What my top waitress records as her tips (and no wait staff EVER records all their earnings) is about $175 per week. So, realistically, she's making over $15 per hour. That's more than my managers. And no, there is no "common tip jar" to be evenly divided. Someone that busts their butts deserves more than someone that sits on theirs.

$4.50 per hour, $8.50 per hour, that'd be illegal here. I guess it's okay and evens out to that (on average) while in an apprenticeship where you also spend time in school and are not working all the time. But a full time job at $4.50 per hour even without experience is rather low and then needing customers to bump that up to a liveable wage. That just sounds grim.

Mario wrote:

Ouze wrote:To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

Don't stores in the US exclude taxes from their displayed prices too (and you have to add them when buying stuff)? That's the same just legalised and without the social contract.

cuda1179 wrote:As someone who has worked as a waiter, cook, manager, and owner of a restaurant, I can tell you this: Anyone worth their salt as wait staff will give your plan the big middle finger. My store is in a small town in rural Iowa, yet good wait staff makes BANK for 30 to 35 hours per week. I start my employees off at $4.50 per hour (that's for a know-nothing, no experience, snot nosed 16 year-old) and will be more for more talented and experience people. My top waitress is at $8.50 per hour. What my top waitress records as her tips (and no wait staff EVER records all their earnings) is about $175 per week. So, realistically, she's making over $15 per hour. That's more than my managers. And no, there is no "common tip jar" to be evenly divided. Someone that busts their butts deserves more than someone that sits on theirs.

$4.50 per hour, $8.50 per hour, that'd be illegal here. I guess it's okay and evens out to that (on average) while in an apprenticeship where you also spend time in school and are not working all the time. But a full time job at $4.50 per hour even without experience is rather low and then needing customers to bump that up to a liveable wage. That just sounds grim.

Yeah they do not include tax, one thing I liked about Germany when I went there was that it was added in on the sticker price

 Ouze wrote:
To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

Totes

 Stevefamine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I always find tipping such an alien concept. It's basically not a thing in Sweden (it happens, but I have only done it in truly extraordinary cases). It always makes me a bit uncomfortable when tips are treated as a second invisible bill.

Out of curiosity - two questions for a Swede:

1) What are waiters paid. In the US they get paid equivalent of 2-3 Euros an hour. After taxes, a 40 hour work week at a restaurant ran me about $60 usd / week and around 300-400 cash in tips. Are waiters getting the equivalent of 10+ Euros an hour over there? That seems to be a much better way of doing things. My figures are also from 2011~

2) What if your service is terrible.... is the bill waived due to the waiter's error? Or how do you resolve that?

I don't know what exactly they make, I haven't been a waiter, but I'd be surprised if basically anyone working in Sweden (aside from those working illegally, maybe?) made less than $1000 or so a month. Probably more. I could see waiters in fine restaurants making considerably more.

The seller job I almost got, which wasn't all that glamorous, offered $1500/month plus a small-ish bonus based on successful sales. (I was beaten to that job, though, unfortunately)

For your second question, I am fairly sure service level is irrelevant to the bill itself. If it's very poor you can mention that to the manager, though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and agreed on Ouze about tipping being bad, even accounting for my extra national bias against it.

Right.

But the OP asked about how to handle this in the USA.

Deciding to not handle it this way in the USA might lead to some...bad experiences, and is most likely going to deprive some hard workers money that they 'should' have received and most likely would have received from someone else.

nareik wrote:

 xKillGorex wrote:
Been a waiter myself many years ago. As a customer and on the other side of the fence I think a tip is due only when a good service is given.
People shouldn’t expect anything as a given.

I think you are overlooking the context of the thread; in the UK servers are paid reasonable money, i.e. at least minimum wage. In the states, where OP is headed to, they can be paid significantly less than that and are expected to make up their wage with tips.

I agree in the UK, tip when it is deserved; a bonus for excellent service. In the US it is a different situation, you aren't providing the bonus with a tip, you are filling the basic wage.


Is that right amerikkas?

Ha damn trust me bud, the wages in the uk might be ok now but it hasn’t always been that way. Back in the 90’s you were doing it for just over two quid in some places an hour. Hard work, the hours sucked and in the end I hated so got the hell out of hospitality. But hey I was younger then and needed the cash.

All the servers I have ever known, including myself, prefer the act of tipping to being paid more without tipping. Why? It rewards those that work harder. Sure, there is such a thing as raises, but this is like a raise in "real time", not something you might expect in a few months. It also mean that when a coworker pawns extra work off on you that you get something for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to add one more thing, every state may set its own minimum wage, as long as it at least meets the Federal minimum. If an employee does not make many tips, the employer is REQUIRED to make sure their overall wage+tip amount is at least the minimum wage. So no server, regardless of how bad they are, will make less than $7.25 per hour (or even more depending on the state), and possibly as much as $15 per hour in some areas.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Just to add one more thing, every state may set its own minimum wage, as long as it at least meets the Federal minimum. If an employee does not make many tips, the employer is REQUIRED to make sure their overall wage+tip amount is at least the minimum wage. So no server, regardless of how bad they are, will make less than $7.25 per hour (or even more depending on the state), and possibly as much as $15 per hour in some areas.

Indeed. Lots of people forget this. You always make minimum wage, even when tips are involved. Most states also have a minimum wage above Federal.

Regarding this whole issue. I would prefer tips earned be in addition to a wage paid by the employer, not "The employee makes minimum wage or tips, whichever is higher". So servers should get paid minimum wage plus tips on top of it. That would seem to me to be the fairest solution. Most server positions really couldn't justify getting paid by the employer more than minimum wage based on the value of the labor, and at the same time Tips shouldn't be used as an excuse for the employer to get out of paying them for their labor.

 cuda1179 wrote:
All the servers I have ever known, including myself, prefer the act of tipping to being paid more without tipping. Why? It rewards those that work harder.

I'm sure every hideous dude that works hard gets tipped substantially more that a gorgeous waitress who is slow - please.

 cuda1179 wrote:
As someone who has worked as a waiter, cook, manager, and owner of a restaurant, I can tell you this: Anyone worth their salt as wait staff will give your plan the big middle finger. My store is in a small town in rural Iowa, yet good wait staff makes BANK for 30 to 35 hours per week.

Sounds like you can afford to pay them a viable wage then, instead of them having a totally unreliable payroll that is to a great deal out of their control, such as when the patrons are in a bad mood (or just cheap, or broke), the weather is bad, the food is burned, or so on.

The original idea behind tipping was to reward exceptional service, but now it's a cultural norm to leave at least 15%, minimum, because otherwise waitstaff makes too little to live on. That's a structural problem with your business model.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tips shouldn't be used as an excuse for the employer to get out of paying them for their labor.

And yet that's exactly what it boils down to in the end: the business gets to keep prices artificially low because they can pass a chunk of their payroll off directly to their customers. If you can't afford to pay your waitstaff a fair wage, then maybe you're not very good at running a restaurant.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
To be fair, tipping is completely stupid. It would be better for literally everyone involved if waitstaff were paid a fair wage and patrons just got a bill for what they ate. We would never accept this in virtually any other industry, really, so pointing out that hospitality/service workers have an extremely bizarre, unreasonable compensation arrangement isn't unwarranted.

As someone who has worked as a waiter, cook, manager, and owner of a restaurant, I can tell you this: Anyone worth their salt as wait staff will give your plan the big middle finger.

I think both these things are true, but I agree with Ouze. People should be paid what their worth, and service in the food industry is probably the foremost maker and breaker of any establishment. Even if your food is god you're likely to have no business very fast if the service is poor (I know I've walked out of places with no intention to return just because I couldn't get a refill and the food was actually good). It shouldn't be the responsibility of customers to pay staff for employers, and the response to "I make more in tips than in minimum wage" is that minimum wage is too low. Even then service staff would still probably be able to make tips simply because it's a cultural norm that has been corrupted into a defense of gak wage rates that will probably still be a cultural norm even if wage rates weren't gak.

So basically I'm with Grey Templar on this one.


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 Iron_Captain wrote:

Nothing racist about it. It is not like that is the origin of tipping. It is much older than that, older than the US even. Tipping is something that started in the middle ages and it was a widespread custom in eating establishments across Europe by the 18th century.

I think you're missing the point of the article (which is accurate by the way). In the US tipping is higher than it is in most other countries including those where tipping is a widely accepted norm and the exact reason for that is way back in the 19th century business owners made an arrangement with the government to get out of our early wage laws. The arrangement almost completely effected African Americans who at the time were the primary employees in the service industry (this is still quite true though nowhere near to the degree it was back then).

So yeah. The tipping scheme in the US exists at it does in part for racist reasons but the system itself is well beyond that point now. Though there are still some really bizarre and confusing things still associated with race and tipping, such as the Black-White Tipping Divide, which runs both ways which I think has been overlooked as a reason for why the former exists.

Interesting topic and informative for one whose country doesn't have standard tipping culture and visits only country where even trying to tip can get you into akward social situation.

Feels weird system for me but well...American's can do what they want. Have to keep this in mind in the hyper super unlikely scenario I ever go there.