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Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 bullyboy wrote:
yeah, that first masque is extremely underwhelming....definitely a hard pass

Yeah, when it said moral shenanigans that was not what I wanted.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Imateria wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
yeah, that first masque is extremely underwhelming....definitely a hard pass

Yeah, when it said moral shenanigans that was not what I wanted.

Morale manipulation will be the Silent Shroud. The preview was for the Dreaming Shadow.

The Dreaming Shadow's form is far from good for sure. And I doubt Voidweavers will be buffed enough to make this form worthwhile.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




So, while I agree the first part of the Masques trait is pretty bad (why would you ever be investing in a Harlequin unit big enough to have potential morale issues anyway is another matter…) but the 2nd half is pretty neat and interesting.

It is basically a Space Marine Ancient for free, and as you’re likely to be constantly up close and personal with the Harlequins it could be very useful.

Not feeling the webway gate rules though. Especially with the wording they use surrounding it’s use
You’ll be able to add a Webway Gate to your Drukhari, Craftworlds and Harlequins armies, and you can use it in-game to deploy your units up close to enemy lines – imagine using it to drop in a clutch of Talos Pain Engines, or a pack of Howling Banshees…


If I was going to throw a unit of Howling Banshees away by deep striking them 9” away and hoping for the charge, I’d use the webway stratagem, rather than spend points on this gate.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kdash wrote:
So, while I agree the first part of the Masques trait is pretty bad (why would you ever be investing in a Harlequin unit big enough to have potential morale issues anyway is another matter…) but the 2nd half is pretty neat and interesting.

It is basically a Space Marine Ancient for free, and as you’re likely to be constantly up close and personal with the Harlequins it could be very useful.

That trait is only useful when you have access to good shooting weapons, which Harlequins tend to lack.
Currently the only one is the fusion pistol, but it has a 6" range, so it's pretty hard to leverage it. And it's carried by troupers/troupe masters, which will hopefully get better forms to choose from.
And a single close combat attack isn't great on models that have at least 4 (so their melee weapons are supposed to be balanced with that in mind).

The only unit with a real shooting weapon is the voidweaver. If it gets a significant buff to its point cost or weapon, a detachment with 3 VW + an HQ might want to take that form. But there might be another form that's better for them, or they might still be trash in the codex, or they might get a buff like "double shooting if didn't move more than half its movement value" which doesn't work well with this form.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Denison, Iowa

What if it doesn't count as deepstriking? What if you can simply deploy a unit as if the webway gate was a board edge?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Boy am I glad that this horrible bit of nonsense is a thing of the past.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 cuda1179 wrote:
What if it doesn't count as deepstriking? What if you can simply deploy a unit as if the webway gate was a board edge?


How would that differ? All "deploy within x" of board edge" operate same as deep strike. Just with additional restriction.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





What if it worked more like disembark rules?
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




tneva82 wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
What if it doesn't count as deepstriking? What if you can simply deploy a unit as if the webway gate was a board edge?


How would that differ? All "deploy within x" of board edge" operate same as deep strike. Just with additional restriction.

I assume they mean that you're free to move in that movement phase, which might be good? I know next to nothing about harlequins but space elves in general seem pretty quick when they want to be so I have no idea if there's actually any demand for this thing other than the way it looks.
   
Made in de
Huge Bone Giant






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Boy am I glad that this horrible bit of nonsense is a thing of the past.


As someone who hasn't peeked at the codex yet, I'm going to assume that's sarcasm?

Aren73 wrote:
What if it worked more like disembark rules?


"What if" may just be the problem here. Presumably the gate's rules were written when deep strike was a perfectly viable option and before GW figured it might be a problem. There's a pretty good chance that the gate doesn't have custom rules because at the time of writing it didn't need custom rules.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Harlequins can take fire from the enemy just about as well as wet toilet paper.

The things they do have are speed and they hit like a truck when they get there. I imagine the codex will be full of ways to get your troupe of clows up in the enemy face, including but not limited to:

Really fast transports
Deepstrikes
Psychic powers letting them move again
Some kind of teleport ability


It's also why the first masque previewed is so poor - if your harlequins are dying in enough numbers to make that trait useful then you're definitely losing the game. If they're not then there's no point in having it.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Geifer wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Boy am I glad that this horrible bit of nonsense is a thing of the past.


As someone who hasn't peeked at the codex yet, I'm going to assume that's sarcasm?
No.

The new Codex now allows Captains, Chaplains and Librarians to mix'n'match weapons and wargear pretty much as you see fit. None of the arbitrary restrictions from that nonsense box I posted.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in de
Huge Bone Giant






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Boy am I glad that this horrible bit of nonsense is a thing of the past.


As someone who hasn't peeked at the codex yet, I'm going to assume that's sarcasm?
No.

The new Codex now allows Captains, Chaplains and Librarians to mix'n'match weapons and wargear pretty much as you see fit. None of the arbitrary restrictions from that nonsense box I posted.


Really? Cool, thanks. Maybe my Ordo Xenos project is no longer on ice then.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Guys, each time a model with this form IS SLAIN or flees...

IS SLAIN

killed in any way.

that's...pretty nutty...

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
Guys, each time a model with this form IS SLAIN or flees...

IS SLAIN

killed in any way.

that's...pretty nutty...


Point being? 5 man squad of harlequin troupe, fusion pistols, let's say someone annihilates them by shooting, you get to shoot 2.5 fusion pistols (and pray to Cegorach something is within range) and then you're troupe is dead. It will be rare that something is within range and if it is you get 2.5 shots that you then have to hit, wound and get through their save with, you might do 3 wounds, maybe.

Plus, they can shoot you when you're out of range of anything.

In combat it's even worse, you get to make only one attack, if you roll a 4+. Same scenario as above, you'll get what, 2.5 caresses/kisses/embraces or blades? That's....pathetic...and 5 harlequins had to die for that and we're not exactly a high model count army.

Nah, we can't afford to benefit from our models being slain.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




the_scotsman wrote:
Guys, each time a model with this form IS SLAIN or flees...

IS SLAIN

killed in any way.

that's...pretty nutty...

It's basically a space marine ancient except this one also works on fleeing models
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 cuda1179 wrote:
What if it doesn't count as deepstriking? What if you can simply deploy a unit as if the webway gate was a board edge?


Rumor (and this is a pretty reliable rumor at this point since everything they said about the Deathwatch came true) has it it does count as Deep Strike, so would have the restriction, but it comes with an added stratagem similar to the Necron Monolith's emergency disembark stratagem that lets you get a unit out of it if it's killed. It does work like disembarking (no 9" restriction) but it does also start your units in reserve so the beta rule does apply to it (no turn 1 disembarking).

That makes it incredibly good, IF you plan around using it to max effectiveness.

Take it with a single huge unit - say, 10 grotesques, a WK or 10 Wraithblades, or a max sized harlequin troupe, and plop it somewhere midboard where your opponent could shoot it but not close to melee with it in one turn.

Then your opponent basically chooses whether to kill a land-raider durability building that cost you 120 points just to cost you a few CP, or whether to leave it and give your melee unit free access to their lines on your turn.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




We need to know a bit more about the codex before judging the Masque/Form completely.

On paper its situational - but perhaps Neuro Disruptors have been buffed significantly (2 shots for instance?). Fusion pistols to the face are not inconsequential against a large range of targets.
If the Kiss has been changed back to be more like 7th with one very powerful attack it might even benefit too.

Sure if you get caught in the middle of nowhere it doesn't help - but your troupes are all assault/close range units. You will be bouncing into stuff at such a range. Models will die from overwatch, or in the assault phase assuming you don't wipe your opponent, or from counter-charges.

Maybe units of 12 foot-slogging Harlequins are not a weird idea to go with.

I can only see you taking it on a Voidweaver if none of the other benefits exist. One extra haywire/cannon round isn't going to mean much unless the boat itself has had a dramatic points drop.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/14 12:21:10


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




The basic problem with this Form is that most of your models die on the other player's turn, and so if your good guns are 6" then they just have to make sure not to have a good target within 6" of you. You're never going to be able to use this to shoot a fusion pistol at a vehicle, since the vehicle will just move away from you before its shooting phase. It has some use against CC characters, but Harlequins are already pretty good against CC characters and are much more scared of hordes and shooting. It will frequently be the case that the only targets within even 12" will be GEQs

SM Ancients can pay off, but look at the units they get used with. It's always Hellblasters or Devastators, because these units are always going to be able to shoot something valuable when they die.
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





the_scotsman wrote:
Guys, each time a model with this form IS SLAIN or flees...

IS SLAIN

killed in any way.

that's...pretty nutty...


The second part of the rule being pretty strong doesn't stop the first part of the rule from being bizarre and worthless for Harlequins 99% of the time. Crunch-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being one of the better traits, but it's clear that they phoned it in for the first half, and that's annoying.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Guys, each time a model with this form IS SLAIN or flees...

IS SLAIN

killed in any way.

that's...pretty nutty...


The second part of the rule being pretty strong doesn't stop the first part of the rule from being bizarre and worthless for Harlequins 99% of the time. Crunch-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being one of the better traits, but it's clear that they phoned it in for the first half, and that's annoying.


So it would be better if it was removed entirely?

I get people's first impression is hard to shake, but if that line hadn't been there would you think as poorly of the trait as a whole?
   
Made in au
Crushing Clawed Fiend




Ballarat, victoria

As someone said, that one attack had better be worth it/ more powerful than it is currently..... but maybe if they have buffed death jesters.......
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




GUYS

You are jumping to conclusions about Masque forms wayyyy too soon. Wait until we see the ENTIRE codex. There are so many strategems, psychic powers, relics, unit load outs that can make Dreaming Shadow viable. Relax.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tricktock wrote:
GUYS

You are jumping to conclusions about Masque forms wayyyy too soon. Wait until we see the ENTIRE codex. There are so many strategems, psychic powers, relics, unit load outs that can make Dreaming Shadow viable. Relax.

Has there been a single example in 8th of a trait which seemed bad from the previews turning out to be good with the rest of the codex? I mean, the rest of the traits could be worse or this Masque could have a great stratagem tied to it that balances out the bad trait, but I'm not sure that "wait and see how it interacts with other changes" has ever turned out to be the right reaction to a rule's power level in hindsight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/14 13:01:35


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





This.


The community is pretty good at judging the power of certain abilities from the get go. Maybe not perfect but not bad at all.

It might improve in context. But that context would have to be some form of relic or stratagem that interacts with death even more. Possible but I doubt it.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





its a bit mehh but is my rule-fu correct in thinking you can fusion pistol after being chopped in CC ? Admittedly not great but more effective than a lone CC swing

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





It may be the case that the masque has strategems, traits and relics that make that particular masque good, but that doesn't change that the actual masque rule itself is practically garbage. A free Ancient is pretty cool, I agree, but harlequins strengths come from the number of attacks, not so much the power of one attack. As for the shooting, not everyone will have a fusion pistol and it's not like the little clowns are mini Hellblasters, so it's still extremely underwhelming.
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





 LunarSol wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Guys, each time a model with this form IS SLAIN or flees...

IS SLAIN

killed in any way.

that's...pretty nutty...


The second part of the rule being pretty strong doesn't stop the first part of the rule from being bizarre and worthless for Harlequins 99% of the time. Crunch-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being one of the better traits, but it's clear that they phoned it in for the first half, and that's annoying.


So it would be better if it was removed entirely?

I get people's first impression is hard to shake, but if that line hadn't been there would you think as poorly of the trait as a whole?


Honestly, yeah, I'd be fine with them getting rid of the first part of the rule. As it is, it's pure rule bloat. If it was particularly fluffy, that'd be one thing, but I don't see what the fluff rationale for the rule would be, and the crunch is pretty much entirely worthless.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Guys, each time a model with this form IS SLAIN or flees...

IS SLAIN

killed in any way.

that's...pretty nutty...


The second part of the rule being pretty strong doesn't stop the first part of the rule from being bizarre and worthless for Harlequins 99% of the time. Crunch-wise, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being one of the better traits, but it's clear that they phoned it in for the first half, and that's annoying.


So it would be better if it was removed entirely?

I get people's first impression is hard to shake, but if that line hadn't been there would you think as poorly of the trait as a whole?


Honestly, yeah, I'd be fine with them getting rid of the first part of the rule. As it is, it's pure rule bloat. If it was particularly fluffy, that'd be one thing, but I don't see what the fluff rationale for the rule would be, and the crunch is pretty much entirely worthless.


Agreed. I play both Dark Angels and Iyanden and that rule has never come into play in any of my games so far.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah if you end up in combat and die, on a 4+ you can either attack or shoot your pistol.

One last free blast with a fusion pistol is not the worst thing in the world.
Or a Troupe Master with some sort of uber melee weapon getting another free round of attacks before he pops it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/14 14:01:09


 
   
 
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