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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
As someone noted elsewhere, to move into 40k 8th edition you needed the rulebook, then the indexes, and then the codices. And even then some options for specific models.had been removed invalidating elements of individual model collections. The companies have different methods of disseminating rules, but in either system upgrading to a new version requires a lot of paper products at significant expense.

And as I noted, it's not the same.

You buy the rules and a book, and you're done. X-Wing you have to keep buying miniatures, sometimes ones you already have, to get more cards. That's never been an issue in 40K. The rules are separated from the pieces needed to play the game. With X-Wing the two are intrinsic, and now they've switched to another edition so all the cards you got are useless and you have to start again. Plus if you don't think there will be new things packaged only with existing miniatures (let alone new miniatures) then I have a bridge to sell you.

No you don't have to buy ships just for the cards. Why on earth would any one do that? You proxy them using one of the many squad builders, if you need specific cards for a sanctioned event then you buy them separately (or borrow/trade them).


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 Stormonu wrote:
I watched the video above (and normally I find "battle reports" too boring to watch), and I saw a lot that I liked overall with the updated game.

However, I'm not thrilled with the idea of buying $100 to $150 worth of cardboard to keep up. Hopefully they will offer a "just the rules"/essentials sort of package like they did with Runewars - I already have 11 ties and nearly as many X-Wings; not really interested in more. And I'd really like to keep my acrylic templates.

Think I am just going to buy the Scum stuff to start and trade what I don't need from that for what I do from other factions. I just hope someone will be selling the new damage deck separately. As for the templates I am just going to mark my Black Sun ones with marker as far as I can make out its just the end mark for the barrel roll that is vital.

Edit; Though the medium bases could be an issue to get hold of, its my understanding that they come with some sort of adaptor to fit large or small pegs. I presume that FFG will update their bases packs but not keen on buying a ton more surplus little and big ones.

 Stormonu wrote:
I watched the video above (and normally I find "battle reports" too boring to watch), and I saw a lot that I liked overall with the updated game.

However, I'm not thrilled with the idea of buying $100 to $150 worth of cardboard to keep up. Hopefully they will offer a "just the rules"/essentials sort of package like they did with Runewars - I already have 11 ties and nearly as many X-Wings; not really interested in more. And I'd really like to keep my acrylic templates.

If the dice and templates are unchanged, then all you will need, I think, will be the base inserts and dials - in the conversion kits - and rulebook - available online.

edit - forget that, I forgot about the damage cards. :(

This is a cash grab. You can tell from the redesigned dials. They went out of their way to make all old components obsolete, down to the plastic dial covers. If they wanted to fix the game, all that was needed was a polished book and a handful of fixed cards.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmmmmm....

What’s the betting they’ll make good ships crap, then ‘spot their mistake’ with yet another, more expensive version?

I'd rather that way round than the GW version of dump out overpowered boswellox to push sales then nerf it to push sales of something else (eg sorry we nerf hammered your Wraithknight best buy these Fire Prisms to replace it)

Mildly optimistic, bit concerned regarding the app but if it breaks the LCG approach to upgrades that might be good

 lord_blackfang wrote:
This is a cash grab. You can tell from the redesigned dials. They went out of their way to make all old components obsolete, down to the plastic dial covers. If they wanted to fix the game, all that was needed was a polished book and a handful of fixed cards.

That's a load of nonsense. The plastic dial covers are being still the same (you picked pretty much the only component that is!) and the game needed a lot more of a fix than that. The FAQ is 26(?) pages long and they had run out of design spaces, fixes released have been loads of text on new cards (which people will complain about buying as a cash grab), turrets have been a massive problem since wave 3 etc. etc.

Right out of the gates the upgraded ships are coming the new cards:

"The T-65 X-Wing Expansion Pack includes a beautifully-painted T-65 X-wing miniature for you to add to your squadron, a maneuver dial, and all the ship and upgrade cards you need to fly this iconic starfighter into battle. We'll explore the T-65 X-wing's capabilities and contents of this expansion pack in much more detail in a future preview!

In addition, the T-65 X-Wing Expansion Pack contains a few entirely new cards that have never before appeared in the game's first edition. These new cards and associated punchboard are also included in the Rebel Alliance Conversion Kit for the benefit of veteran players!"

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmmmmm....

What’s the betting they’ll make good ships crap, then ‘spot their mistake’ with yet another, more expensive version?

I'd rather that way round than the GW version of dump out overpowered boswellox to push sales then nerf it to push sales of something else (eg sorry we nerf hammered your Wraithknight best buy these Fire Prisms to replace it)

Mildly optimistic, bit concerned regarding the app but if it breaks the LCG approach to upgrades that might be good

That’s only really a problem if someone picks only what are considered to be ‘the best’ units in search of cheap wins. The Wraithknight being nerfed doesn’t make it useless, just not as blindingly overpowered as it was. World of difference there.

FFG? I dropped out when I found the internet claims of it being well balanced we’re flat out wrong. I quickly grew tired of ‘the ship is a tenner, but to make it not suck, that’ll be £80 for this Epic Play ship you’ll use once in a blue moon’.

Just too mercenary in my eyes. Then there was the constant ‘but this new ship does it better!’ type nonsense. Or packaging highly desirable cards with hideous, Old EU ships. Like the moronic looking K-Wing. Seriously. Just look at the original design. It doesn’t look like it belong in Star Wars at all. And what’s with the extrernal missile racks! (Fault there is the original artist, not FFG).

Something that I don’t think people have really picked up on? New, ‘medium sized bases’. What’s the betting they’ll be dished out to existing ships, such as the aforementioned K-Wing and that ridiculous TIE Heavy Bomber? Because that’s another purchase you’ll need to make to keep your original collection up to date! And I suspect there’ll be sod all else in those new packs you actually want beyond said base, because FFG.

Wraithknight is not usable maybe if you compare to ork stompa but that's not saying much...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sure it is. GW rules you buy in a book and you're done. You don't have to buy the rules with miniatures or get 'upgrades' to replace all your useless cards.

Except when a new edition arrives every couple years and you have to buy a new core rulebook and new codex or three. Don't pretend that GW's rules updates are any cheaper than this one.

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sure it is. GW rules you buy in a book and you're done. You don't have to buy the rules with miniatures or get 'upgrades' to replace all your useless cards.

Except when a new edition arrives every couple years and you have to buy a new core rulebook and new codex or three. Don't pretend that GW's rules updates are any cheaper than this one.

True, but you never have to buy the same codex for Xth edition more than once because there were only enough words in that one book to apply to half your army

 Peregrine wrote:
Except when a new edition arrives every couple years and you have to buy a new core rulebook and new codex or three. Don't pretend that GW's rules updates are any cheaper than this one.

Firstly I never said they were cheaper, but more importantly you're still missing the point.

When GW does a new edition you buy a few new books. Done.

With this, you've got to buy all new cards, and a lot of those cards (even for things you already own) will only come with new miniatures. There are these expensive upgrade packs, but sooner or later you're going to need other cards that only come with miniatures. Meanwhile, all the cards you've already got are worth diddly, as they don't work the new game. It's not like an old Codex that you can still pick up for the fluff, artwork and minis.

 Siygess wrote:
True, but you never have to buy the same codex for Xth edition more than once because there were only enough words in that one book to apply to half your army

Only because the edition doesn't last long enough to make a second version of the codex before GW drops another edition and another cycle of buying new books.



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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Firstly I never said they were cheaper, but more importantly you're still missing the point.

If they aren't cheaper then what's your point? You're making a big deal about some abstract principle about buying upgrade cards when the actual financial cost is no worse.

and a lot of those cards (even for things you already own) will only come with new miniatures

Not true. The upgrades up front, including all of the replacements for stuff you already own, are in the conversion packs. The only reason you'd be forced to buy new miniatures is for new content, which isn't the same as the edition change requiring a new purchase.

Meanwhile, all the cards you've already got are worth diddly, as they don't work the new game.

So what? Those cards were worthless already. Remember, in X-Wing the only purpose for the cards is a proof of purchase at FFG's official events. If you're just playing for fun you don't need any of the cards. The only thing you need to buy from 2.0 is the cardboard base inserts, which are really part of the ship model and not a rules component.

It's not like an old Codex that you can still pick up for the fluff, artwork and minis.

As long as you're talking about a 5th edition codex or earlier. Anything from a more recent edition is trash as soon as a new edition hits, the fluff and art are just stripped down versions of what you used to get in the older codices and have no more value than old X-Wing cards.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Except when a new edition arrives every couple years and you have to buy a new core rulebook and new codex or three. Don't pretend that GW's rules updates are any cheaper than this one.

Firstly I never said they were cheaper, but more importantly you're still missing the point.

With this, you've got to buy all new cards, and a lot of those cards (even for things you already own) will only come with new miniatures. There are these expensive upgrade packs, but sooner or later you're going to need other cards that only come with miniatures. Meanwhile, all the cards you've already got are worth diddly, as they don't work the new game. It's not like an old Codex that you can still pick up for the fluff, artwork and minis.

The conversion packs contain replacements for all the cards for each faction. What's more, they also contain copies of the cards for the ships that will be released for that faction in wave 1 so you don't need to buy the TIE Advanced or Y-Wing expansion if you get the relevant conversion kit. Yes, for future cards after the initial wave you'll need to buy new miniatures but that's no different from how things are now.

I feel like FFG can't win here. There have been an increasing number of calls for a 2nd edition and a lot of complaints about the state of the game at the moment. Then FFG announce a 2nd edition and people are shocked it might cost money to buy into it. No other game system I can think of has had an edition change that hasn't required spending money to transition between editions. Given the contents of the conversion packs I think FFG have taken a reasonable approach to this. It's really no different to the change from 7th-8th edition 40k.

Slipspace wrote:
. No other game system I can think of has had an edition change that hasn't required spending money to transition between editions.

Age of Sigmar.

And there was A LOT of whining that 40K 8th didn't provide at least the Index books for free online. So if whining was justified there, it is here, doubly so because each 25 Dollar Index covered 100 times as many miniatures as exist in X-Wing in its entirety and one index gives you rule for Space Marines, irrespective of whether you have just 5 or 50.000. The same is not true for conversions for, say, TIE-Fighters here, where conversion costs to the new edition perversely increase with the size of your collection and how much money you spend on the game previously.

LOL my kid and I picked a bad time to start playing and buying a lot of Xwing stuff the past few months.

I see our Silencers will have to wait.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
. No other game system I can think of has had an edition change that hasn't required spending money to transition between editions.

Age of Sigmar.

And there was A LOT of whining that 40K 8th didn't provide at least the Index books for free online. So if whining was justified there, it is here, doubly so because each 25 Dollar Index covered 100 times as many miniatures as exist in X-Wing in its entirety and one index gives you rule for Space Marines, irrespective of whether you have just 5 or 50.000. The same is not true for conversions for, say, TIE-Fighters here, where conversion costs to the new edition perversely increase with the size of your collection and how much money you spend on the game previously.

Of course with AoS you didn't even get game. To get that took good year and...guess what? Book you needed to buy. And then you still need other book(s) as well.

 Zach wrote:
LOL my kid and I picked a bad time to start playing and buying a lot of Xwing stuff the past few months.

I see our Silencers will have to wait.

On the flip side Zach, it might be the perfect time if people are going to be dumping stuff on ebay. V1 is still playable and I doubt your daughter is a hardcore tourney player. Just don't by over the amounts in the conversion sets...

Depending how this goes down I'm cautiously optimistic. I have a huge X-Wing collection and the endless FAQs were taking the game away from what I wanted. As long as whatever is in the upgrade kits is boxed with the new ships I can see myself being happy. Plus if the proposed app has all the rules and cards then I feel that's a good step forward.

tneva82 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
. No other game system I can think of has had an edition change that hasn't required spending money to transition between editions.

Age of Sigmar.

Of course with AoS you didn't even get game. To get that took good year and...guess what? Book you needed to buy. And then you still need other book(s) as well.

It's not a game unless it has an officially available point system? That's a bit misleading, don't you think? Moving goalposts is an internet tradition, but come on...

With X-Wing, it requires physical components. These must be printed, collected, distributed, warehoused, shipped, and sold. It is not free for FFG, so it won't be free for the users either. It is impossible for FFG to meet the needs of every collection out there with a single product. It's tough, but it is understandable. Generally speaking, a sheet of cardboard is worth about $10 to FFG (based on their other products), and these upgrade kits seem to have at least 5 of them, so the price may even be a little bit less than they would normally charge for other products.

Hmmm... reminds me of mage knight and it's upgrade to 2.0. Upgrade was better but cost the game everything. This won't be as drastic though.

Looks like the perfect time for gaslands! Rulebook is cheap ($13) models are super cheap ($1 each), game is a more fun xwing.

 455_PWR wrote:
Hmmm... reminds me of mage knight and it's upgrade to 2.0. Upgrade was better but cost the game everything. This won't be as drastic though.

I've only been following miniature games for a few years, but every version change I've seen has followed basically the same process:

1) There's a cost associated with moving to this new system? Spend money? In my hobby? feth that, I'm out.
2) I've been playing game X forever and there's nothing wrong with it. I'm sticking with the last version.
3) Hey guys who are wavering, might I suggest this other (similar/cheaper/better) game that I like better which I'm hoping to steal some players for?
4) Oh my gosh, they changed this exceedingly minor thing and I'm so upset that I'm going to boycott all of this company's products forever.
5) New version comes out. There's growing pains, but it is objectively an improvement.
6) It's taking too long to build up the new edition. The old edition has 10 years of models, but this new one only releases a ton of stuff every couple months. Bah. I'll wait until it is all out.
7) I like it but I like things the previous version did too, so I'm going to create my own amalgamated version, which will be mediocre at best - but I will bring it up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD.
8) New version is fine. People like it. It sells well. It is largely an improvement to the health of the game and will help the game last another 10 years through continued support.
9) Grumble, grumble, it's all been downhill since Rogue Trader.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Something that I don’t think people have really picked up on? New, ‘medium sized bases’. What’s the betting they’ll be dished out to existing ships, such as the aforementioned K-Wing and that ridiculous TIE Heavy Bomber? Because that’s another purchase you’ll need to make to keep your original collection up to date! And I suspect there’ll be sod all else in those new packs you actually want beyond said base, because FFG.

I thought the conversion pack comes with medium bases and all the other relevant kit for the Punisher.

All of the conversion packs do.

 ingtaer wrote:
Well the upgrade boxes per faction are going to be $50, the new core set is $40 (both USD). They contain everything you need to upgrade from V1 to V2, including all the cards. That seems pretty comparable to GW.

Not everything, it seems like they carefully selected which ones people would have more of and ensured that they would have less to be able to convert over. Seriously who decided people used three or more Decimators is my question..

So, for non-tournament play, photocopy TIE/LN dial, paste onto Decimator dial. Job done.

Some one who really, really likes Decimators. It would have made sense for them to do what would have been 100pts of each ship in V1. I hope the quantities they have put forward are just estimates (or the infamous FFG article error).

Pretty surprising, i thought a new edition might roll out in a year or so at least.

The changes they made are great for the long term health of the game. No points values printed on the cards, and forcing people to create their competitive lists at a single source... brilliant.
This is one of the tools they need to balance the game through crowd-sourcing. If they see that people are exclusively favoring one upgrade/ship over another, they can just turn up the dial on the cost.

I'm one of those people that has an embarassingly large xwing collection. Not looking forward to upgrading all those ships and shelling out for that. But giving it a second thought, hmm, how often do i play with those ships? well they sit on the shelf for an embarassingly long time. If you have more than 4+ of any kind of ship, of every faction, beside TIE fighters the chances are you are not using them often. If you are using them, it is in a casual setting. In a casual setting, you can print stuff out at home and wing it with a lot of the components, probably just make something on the printer and glue it to the top of your cardboard, and you're good to go.

It remains to be seen, but I am so much more happier that my embarassingly large collection is now likely to be useful in the competitive game again. With all the content getting wiped and giving everything a playing field, with plenty of mechanics baked in to keep the game balanced in the future. Of course, that requires some following up, but i think we've maybe got a year or two after release before serious power creep is a thing again.

When xwing 1.0 came out, it was revolutionary, its why it was successful and now it seems 2.0 is ahead of the curve. I'm just hoping they're able to keep all the ships relevant in the game using the new points system.

 Meade wrote:
Pretty surprising, i thought a new edition might roll out in a year or so at least.

The changes they made are great for the long term health of the game. No points values printed on the cards, and forcing people to create their competitive lists at a single source... brilliant.
This is one of the tools they need to balance the game through crowd-sourcing. If they see that people are exclusively favoring one upgrade/ship over another, they can just turn up the dial on the cost.

I'm one of those people that has an embarassingly large xwing collection. Not looking forward to upgrading all those ships and shelling out for that. But giving it a second thought, hmm, how often do i play with those ships? well they sit on the shelf for an embarassingly long time. If you have more than 4+ of any kind of ship, of every faction, beside TIE fighters the chances are you are not using them often. If you are using them, it is in a casual setting. In a casual setting, you can print stuff out at home and wing it with a lot of the components, probably just make something on the printer and glue it to the top of your cardboard, and you're good to go.

It remains to be seen, but I am so much more happier that my embarassingly large collection is now likely to be useful in the competitive game again. With all the content getting wiped and giving everything a playing field, with plenty of mechanics baked in to keep the game balanced in the future. Of course, that requires some following up, but i think we've maybe got a year or two after release before serious power creep is a thing again.

When xwing 1.0 came out, it was revolutionary, its why it was successful and now it seems 2.0 is ahead of the curve. I'm just hoping they're able to keep all the ships relevant in the game using the new points system.

Honestly, I'm definitely looking to cut some of my early excess and simultaneously help other people get into the game. I probably own 2 Rebel conversion kits worth of X/Y/B wings, but do I really need 4 of each of those ships in a game that routinely only sees 3 models in a squad period? All the early stuff I have tons of, but the later stuff I only have 1 generally because the game had grown to where duplicates became unnecessary. Seems like a good chance to sell that second conversion kits worth of stuff to someone looking to start playing.

I've only skim read through most of the stuff but not seen anything about the dice?

Are the dice the same or do we need a load of new dice too?

Dice packs branded as V2 look the same.