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Guys, guys, guys! This has gone far enough!

I was letting it slide for a while, but now it’s spreading, so we need to settle this.


**The abbreviation for “Kickstarter” (noun and verb) is “KS”. A “KSer” would be a “Kickstarterer”. “Kickstarterer.” As in “one who kickstarters”. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!**


That is all.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Guys, guys, guys! This has gone far enough!

I was letting it slide for a while, but now it’s spreading, so we need to settle this.


**The abbreviation for “Kickstarter” (noun and verb) is “KS”. A “KSer” would be a “Kickstarterer”. “Kickstarterer.” As in “one who kickstarters”. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!**


That is all.

Kickstarterer.... hmmm... It has a certain riring to it.

Would a KSer be a KS backer, a KS creator, or cover both?

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Would a KSer be a KS backer, a KS creator, or cover both?

Well, following Bob's proposed nomenclature, I think backers would be kickstartererers whereas creators would be kickstarererors. I'll let him have final say on that though.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Would a KSer be a KS backer, a KS creator, or cover both?

I’m pretty sure this should well cover backers, creators and the campaign itself!
Or maybe a KS, KSer, KSor?

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Would a KSer be a KS backer, a KS creator, or cover both?

English is a flexible language. I’d say both are acceptable, although one could be more precise with variants such as Kickstarteror, or even Kickstarteress if one can use it without generating controversy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Kickstarterteer.

Well, might just have to grab the steampunk stuff as well.

Employer - Employee

thus

Kickstarterer - Kickstarteree?

 Col Hammer wrote:
Employer - Employee

thus

Kickstarterer - Kickstarteree?

Kickstarter is referring to to the platform's abilities to kickstart. The object ("kickstartee"), then, would either be the company, capaign, or product of the agent (KS).

If the kickstarter is the campaign/company, then the object would be the product.

If they intend the agents to be the backers, ignoring the fact that there's already a term I just used for them (so this is unlikely), they would be the kickstarters, and the kickstartee would still be the company/campaign/product.

The backer is only a kickstartee if what is kickstarted is them, rather than what they purchase, but based on the "donation"/preorder scheme, this doesn't really follow. For instance, one doesn't describe an individual client getting off the ground by buying a product, but the producer getting off the ground.

Miniature Market "sale" on Z promos, etc.
https://www.miniaturemarket.com/searchresults/?q=zombicide

IMO, You're better off backing a current Z KS instead of chasing promos.

Otherwise, I'd recommend:
* Green Horde base set : $55
* Deadeye Walkers: $20. BGG'ers recommend this expansion for Black Plague (and GH).

Reddit thread on the sale : https://www.reddit.com/r/zombicide/comments/lrgn66/giant_sale_on_zombicide_stuff_including_promos/

So as I predicted MM bought everything left over from the Time Machine KSer. Looks like some Invader stuff is in there too.

CMON issues profit warning with a net loss for 2020 to be not less than $3.8 million, The audited accounts will be published by the end of March.

https://cmon-files.s3.amazonaws.com/pdf/cmon_file/file/576/210225_profit_warning_e.pdf

CMON has also submitted a resumption of trading request to the Hong Kong stock exchange with effect from today 26th February as they consider the audit issues have been investigated and explained.

https://cmon-files.s3.amazonaws.com/pdf/cmon_file/file/575/210226_trading_resumption_e.pdf

So what's up with the loss? Is that just normal debt due to how long in advance they have people pay for goods?

Edit: Ahh. COVID according to the PDF.

No shows to go to, so all their show exclusives were just sitting along with stock that they could try and sell. Still, they unloaded a ton of stuff to Miniaturemarket.com and are showing that big of a loss. That’s not good.

Plus , in spite of Covid, extremely poor distribution from Asmodee. It has been a good 5 months odd since any new releases for ASOIAF in the UK, and still none on the imminent horizon. No new product really hamstrings chances to make money. Has this poor distribution been repeated with their other games and IP's?

$3.8 million is still about as much as one or two of their better KS. I think I'd worry more if they were slipping behind projects (which is the case for Trudvang).

Not shipped:
* Animation Collection
* Massive Darkness 2
* CMON Comics
* Ankh
* Trudvang

Shipped:
* Zombicide 2nd edition
* Night of the Living Dead
* CMON Time Machine
* Bloodborne

CMON liquidated their stock through MM with Wrath of Kings, B-Sieged, Kaos Ball, and I've seen Sedition Wars and Relic Knights at clearance prices. So, while not ideal, it's not like CMON hasn't done anything like this before, even pre-CoVid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
> Has this poor distribution been repeated with their other games and IP's?

Sort of!

Song is, afaik, their first "lifestyle" mini's game through retail channels, although they did have a KS, I'm sure for marketing purposes. You've already seen shortages of individual boxes.

AFAIK, Their business model is "fire and forget". Take the KS profits to make retail copies (this is common with KS projects). While CMON base games seem to be readily available (and sometimes on sale), their smaller expansions aren't. Customers don't like stuff selling out, but, in general, product after an initial run doesn't sell as quickly. RPG sales taper off after the first 90 days, and Monolith is reducing risk for their next MB print run by surveying how many copies of each expansion backers expect to buy.

After KS, I wonder how retail companies can stay in business, with the difficulty it is to judge customer demand.

I guess that means you should give CMON more money in their current Kickstarter, so that you can save all of their current projects or something.

A $3.8 million loss was MD2.
It’s not that bad nor that big of a deal.
But we’re talking about a company with stocks and shareholders. If it goes belly up it’ll be parted out and sold. And those buying the company will likely want to keep the brand image intact. If projects don’t deliver, the brand is hosed.
I really don’t think that’ll happen. I’m going with my gut in this though. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I don’t feel there is much to worry about here. At least not yet.
If we see a second year of losses then it’s time to start panicking.

 ced1106 wrote:

After KS, I wonder how retail companies can stay in business, with the difficulty it is to judge customer demand.

It really is. Just look at Google Stadia where reports are saying Google overestimated interest in the hundreds of thousands.

 Ghool wrote:
A $3.8 million loss was MD2.
It’s not that bad nor that big of a deal.
But we’re talking about a company with stocks and shareholders. If it goes belly up it’ll be parted out and sold. And those buying the company will likely want to keep the brand image intact. If projects don’t deliver, the brand is hosed.
I really don’t think that’ll happen. I’m going with my gut in this though. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I don’t feel there is much to worry about here. At least not yet.
If we see a second year of losses then it’s time to start panicking.

I'm not to worried as last year was a mess for a lot of companies. In the PDF posted they mentioned most of this was due to factory shutdown and massive shipping delays. Remember that only about half their revenue comes from KS campaigns so even if those did normal their direct to retail seams to have taken a hit. And as I've said before many times. If CMoN goes under they're properties are worth enough that another company will buy them (probably asmodee) and I think whoever does would deliver on the KS preorders as it would be horrible bad press otherwise and would probably garner some attention from State Attorneys Generals here in the US.

They're probably the only company that does a lot of crowdfunding that I would say that about. Might be some naivete on my part to state that but it seams way more likely then them just disappearing overnight.

GW's profits soar, Wizkids' profits soar, and CMON's profits...

It would be one thing if ASOIF boxes were available for a few months and then sold out, that would still be a very poor sign of their financial stability, but that isn't even what we're talking about. We're talking about product that has a short pre-order with a very iffy release date, only on a few online retailers, that sells out before most people know about it, and never makes it to stores. When you're in the business of selling game pieces to gamers, you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you don't make game pieces and get them to the gamers who want them.

I think they can always pull themselves out with a slew of miniature-heavy KS campaigns that just deliver, but they obviously fancy themselves more than that as a company, and just from the look of things are a bigger organization than they need to be. Either they figure out distribution, they severely downsize, or they will eventually just be forced to sell themselves off.

 frankelee wrote:


It would be one thing if ASOIF boxes were available for a few months and then sold out, that would still be a very poor sign of their financial stability, but that isn't even what we're talking about. We're talking about product that has a short pre-order with a very iffy release date, only on a few online retailers, that sells out before most people know about it, and never makes it to stores. When you're in the business of selling game pieces to gamers, you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you don't make game pieces and get them to the gamers who want them.

While I can understand the frustration of this business model it is a very valid one that lots of companies do. Produce enough that you know will sell so you don't have leftovers. I mean even GW does it to an extent but it's not uncommon as a general business practice. You cannot have a loss on that product if you make less then there's demand for (and that amount you make covers costs). Sure they could make more and profit more, but there's risks involved there that cleary CMoN doesn't want to take.

With boardgames you generally only have 1-2 expansions, if any at all, and if people like the core game enough those expansions could sell easily to them as anyone who plays the game would benefit from the expansion generally.

With a miniatures game you have 30, 40, 50+ expansions that only appeal to a subset of players of the game due to how armies are built so it's very hard to judge and when you're producing in plastic and have to do large volumes. How many of those expansions will you loose money on just to make enough to meet demand, and make more, on a smaller subset?

At this point it does feel like Kickstarter for ASOI&F waves is the best way to go. It would help ensure that everybody gets what they want at launch at least, without the frustrations that have plagued the playerbase for some time. It seems to have worked for Privateer Press and their recent, non-Warmahordes stuff.

> With a miniatures game you have 30, 40, 50+ expansions that only appeal to a subset of players of the game due to how armies are built so it's very hard to judge and when you're producing in plastic and have to do large volumes. How many of those expansions will you loose money on just to make enough to meet demand, and make more, on a smaller subset?

Yeesh! Makes you wonder what companies are crazy enough to do that.

I'd like to know better what plastic miniature wargames are still around and died, but here's what I recall. Note that Star Wars and Star Trek are IP-related, so many customers buy the models to collect based on the shows. A disadvantage of plastic is that companies need a minimum run for a reprint, and companies sometimes don't know if they can sell all the stock before losses set in.

Died:
* CMON: Wrath of Kings. Died.
* FFG: Runewars. DOA.
* FFG: Star Wars Armada. I don't think it's dead, but not selling as well as X-Wing?
* Steamforged: Guildball. Dropped in favor of IP games.
* WizKids: Dragon Attack (?), Mage Knight, MechWarrior.

Still around:
* FFG: Star Wars X-Wing.
* WizKids: Star Trek.
* WizKids: HeroClix (?).

> At this point it does feel like Kickstarter for ASOI&F waves is the best way to go. It would help ensure that everybody gets what they want at launch at least, without the frustrations that have plagued the playerbase for some time. It seems to have worked for Privateer Press and their recent, non-Warmahordes stuff.

Yeah! As much as BGG'ers dismissed KS as a pre-order, a pre-order minimizes risk to the creator, meaning that customers should have better confidence that a "lifestyle" game line will remain in-print. For its Mythic Battles line, Monolith is surveying backers for print-run demand for previous expansions as well. Sure, it's inconvenient for impulse purchasers and late-comers, but I think it's better than not finding product at all, and losing interest in the game line.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

It really is. Just look at Google Stadia where reports are saying Google overestimated interest in the hundreds of thousands.

I think that's spin. Microsoft's game streaming service seems very popular and well reviewed; it's a great value and it actually delivered on what it promised unlike Google on both counts. The interest is there for a game streaming service just not the comparatively substandard one they were offering.

 warboss wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:

It really is. Just look at Google Stadia where reports are saying Google overestimated interest in the hundreds of thousands.

I think that's spin. Microsoft's game streaming service seems very popular and well reviewed; it's a great value and it actually delivered on what it promised unlike Google on both counts. The interest is there for a game streaming service just not the comparatively substandard one they were offering.

They're different beasts. Microsoft's a subscription like Netflix while Google's streaming service required you to buy the games for the most part. Google did have a subscription model but it was for 4k gaming and only came with a handful of free games vs the hundred+ Microsoft provides. Stadia also required you to buy the hardware at $150 which future plans to support just browsers and mobile but those aren't currently part of the product.

From the top of my head, wrath of kings, confrontation resurrection, dark age died or are in the low demand region.
The coolminior not portal discontinued and with news of 2019...

The once sell point of miniatures for painters with loads of niche cool minis, pun intended is gone.
Now you have an avalanche of 1 trick pony KS/Boardgames.

Not for painters, collectors or Tabletop war-gamers... its more a boardgames with a skin to attract people who liked minis.

Its not Cool mini or not is just Cool Boardgames or not.

And thats Fine!
Just not for me so I'm not at least concerned with their profitability.

Nevermind. No need to derail the thread. Keep calm and kvetch on!

Cigar-chompin' shotgun-wielding nun on a donkey? Cigar-chompin' shotgun-wielding nun on a donkey.

More importantly, what other western miniature companies have a "matching" figure that's on a mount?

Western Back to the Future figures unlocking.

Also, Yul Brenner survivor coming up.

That there is a whole load of awesome

Has anyone done a list of all the cameo figures?

A show with everything including Yul Brenner? Take that, chess nerds.