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 Earth127 wrote:
Xeno you don't get to post that giff. You said was a tactical genius.

He may be a logistical genius, but tactical???????????

Forgot the rules - though it seemed really appropriate fixed with " ". I would say using a new tech in combat for the first time to crush your enemies qualifies as a tactic.

What if Hux had put a droid in a shuttle and plotted a hyperspace jump through the Rebel ship he was chasing?

He left his big ship exposed to attack because he wanted to get a good propaganda bit, lost it at general hugs and then proceeded to lose his big new toy.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
You guys do know that space opera films tend to exaggerate character traits and stuff a bit, so as to tell a story in 90 minutes, right? I am not sure I would go to Star Wars to learn about 21st century US Navy human resources policies.

Anyway... I loved Holdo. She had a plan, all the time. She was quite kind to Poe even after he disobeyed orders and made a significant error that cost lives and resources. She had charisma. And she had piloting chops and a willingness to think the unthinkable. A+++. Would watch "Holdo: A Star Wars Story."

Custer also had a plan, and hers was worse than his. Having a plan is meaningless if only you know it and your troops have no idea what to do.

no you don't go to movies to learn about real world things, but you'll find that doctors don't like doctor shows, lawyers don't like lawyer shows, and I don't like navy shows. Because I know everything they're doing wrong, where even dumb comedies like battleship I just can't enjoy. and I like dumb comedies.

My assumption at the time of the film was that plotting a hyperspace jump to reliably collide your ship with a moving enemy ship was next to impossible, and that one would need to be an unusually skilled pilot to pull it off, especially with anything big enough to do significant damage (one presumes that a capital ship usually has more than one crew member).

Droids in SW, like every other bit of tech in SW, don't really function like computers or robots do IRL; they have functions that are mostly plot-based, or indeed plot-hole-based, and don't really make a lot of sense if you analyse them or their roles in any depth. Although there's lots of talk about astromech droids, they are supplements to human pilots, in practice, not replacements for them. Plus of course they exist to wander about on the hull and do a bit of emergency welding like that would fix a missile hit or something.


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sirlynchmob wrote:


no you don't go to movies to learn about real world things, but you'll find that doctors don't like doctor shows, lawyers don't like lawyer shows, and I don't like navy shows. Because I know everything they're doing wrong, where even dumb comedies like battleship I just can't enjoy. and I like dumb comedies.

I mean I do get that, but if I can ignore all the physics holes in Star Wars, which is at least vaguely an SF setting, surely you can ignore all the navy holes, given that it's only even more vaguely a navy setting? Like obviously it borrows some tropes from war movies, but it's pretty far removed from war, surely. Although the Dambusters/ANH crossover videos are awesome.

Where in TLJ is it established that weaponizing hyperspace requires advanced navigational skill or that Holdo has the skill to do this?

It isn't, other than from context -- the context being every other SW movie in which this does not happen. I assumed there was a reason it didn't happen.

Apart from the obvious "it's space opera not physics" reason. You know, the same reason that Star Trek doesn't involve weaponised teleportation to put nukes into the warp drive of the enemy ship. Because its tropes, like those of SW, are derived from the war movies that the creators grew up on, not from science. And that's OK.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It isn't, other than from context -- the context being every other SW movie in which this does not happen. I assumed there was a reason it didn't happen.

Apart from the obvious "it's space opera not physics" reason. You know, the same reason that Star Trek doesn't involve weaponised teleportation to put nukes into the warp drive of the enemy ship. Because its tropes, like those of SW, are derived from the war movies that the creators grew up on, not from science. And that's OK.

"sir they have built a moon sized planet killing star ship"

"its ok, we can just take 1 or 2 of our ships and Hyperspace ram it, thats all it will take"

"oh ok sir, glad we have you around!"

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
My assumption at the time of the film was that plotting a hyperspace jump to reliably collide your ship with a moving enemy ship was next to impossible, and that one would need to be an unusually skilled pilot to pull it off, especially with anything big enough to do significant damage (one presumes that a capital ship usually has more than one crew member).

Droids in SW, like every other bit of tech in SW, don't really function like computers or robots do IRL; they have functions that are mostly plot-based, or indeed plot-hole-based, and don't really make a lot of sense if you analyse them or their roles in any depth. Although there's lots of talk about astromech droids, they are supplements to human pilots, in practice, not replacements for them. Plus of course they exist to wander about on the hull and do a bit of emergency welding like that would fix a missile hit or something.


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sirlynchmob wrote:


no you don't go to movies to learn about real world things, but you'll find that doctors don't like doctor shows, lawyers don't like lawyer shows, and I don't like navy shows. Because I know everything they're doing wrong, where even dumb comedies like battleship I just can't enjoy. and I like dumb comedies.

I mean I do get that, but if I can ignore all the physics holes in Star Wars, which is at least vaguely an SF setting, surely you can ignore all the navy holes, given that it's only even more vaguely a navy setting? Like obviously it borrows some tropes from war movies, but it's pretty far removed from war, surely. Although the Dambusters/ANH crossover videos are awesome.

suspencion of disbelief only goes so far, and TLJ went well past that point. I can ignore star wars continuously putting generals in charge of ships, but each thing they do that i know is wrong takes away the imersion.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It isn't, other than from context -- the context being every other SW movie in which this does not happen. I assumed there was a reason it didn't happen.

Apart from the obvious "it's space opera not physics" reason. You know, the same reason that Star Trek doesn't involve weaponised teleportation to put nukes into the warp drive of the enemy ship. Because its tropes, like those of SW, are derived from the war movies that the creators grew up on, not from science. And that's OK.

You are right - it is puzzling how this hyperspace ram happens now and never happened in the past. I think most of us have just come to the conclusion that...You should really ignore this. As it does nothing to the story any ways. The First order still follows them to the planet and so on and so on. It's almost like it didn't happen anyways.

Also - Startrek does use teleporters as weapons. It is considered unreliable as teleporters don't go through shields and once shields are down ships are easily dispatched.

Expanded canon: It did happen in the old canon.

Big disadvantage from the novelization: you have to be practically on top of your enemy. "Hyperspace" creates a tunnel. If hux had ordered all guns on the Raddus, it would have been destroyed before it hit anything.

frightnight wrote:Okay. It may not have been clear to either of you, but it was to me and a bunch of other folks on other boards what it meant.

IOW "I'm right and you're wrong".

You can not like the movie. You can think it's terrible. That doesn't make it so.

You can also like the movie. You can think it's brilliant. That doesn't make it so either.

The scene makes perfect narrative sense, as I laid out in my previous post: Luke decides he has value, returns for final stand, becomes legend to inspire new generation of rebels. Your disagreement on the scene, besides being a stretch for thematic, narrative, and metaphorical reasons, is over bolt-counting on a thing that's never actually been defined: how long hyperspace travel takes, and how quickly information could be spread.

So expecting a logical and coherent explanation for the "why" behind a character is "bolt-counting"?

Jesus, if that's the kind of standards we're looking at here...

We are given no idea how long it's been. We have a logical reason to suspect that these kids should know nothing - one, the Rebellion is pretty much defeated, and unable to broadcast their own propaganda (seeing as no-one is even communicating with them now) and two, these are slaves, on a world that has very little care for the wider galaxy ("just business").

You can have it break your suspension of belief, lord knows I've had some weird things stick in my cinematic craw over the years. When I do, I say, "Yeah it's weird, but X just didn't work for me". Like how I like lasagna and pizza, but can't stand spaghetti.

So why are you belittling people for supposed "bolt-counting" if you yourself admit that suspension of disbelief isn't a universal thing?

Just understand that your objection to the scene does not break any established rules of the franchise, only your own.

Those rules are formed by the franchise itself. Unless you're saying that lightsabers being a part of Star Wars, and it taking place a Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Far Away is just a personal headcanon?

Ian Sturrock wrote:It isn't, other than from context -- the context being every other SW movie in which this does not happen. I assumed there was a reason it didn't happen.

Or, more logically, the context that RJ wrote his characters into a hole, and decided to do something that retroactively makes every Star Wars film worse.

Either or.

 Earth127 wrote:
He left his big ship exposed to attack because he wanted to get a good propaganda bit, lost it at general hugs and then proceeded to lose his big new toy.

Is that really his fault though? It's a giant Dreadnought - it's there to blow up bases and propaganda is how the First Order functions. Wanting to use it makes sense. Not having fighters in the area makes no sense though. Seems like it would be some subordinate commander that would be responsible for calling for fighters to scramble. I do believe it was Hux who was like..."why the heck don't we have fighters over there?".

its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"

That's a standard trope. The audience doesn't need an explanation. Most of the audience don't care about the backstory. Lucas was equally slack about developing the backstory of the Empire in A New Hope. No-one cared.

The ironic thing is that lots of modern people know so little about the history of the real Nazis until it gets to WW2.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Is that really his fault though? It's a giant Dreadnought - it's there to blow up bases and propaganda is how the First Order functions. Wanting to use it makes sense. Not having fighters in the area makes no sense though. Seems like it would be some subordinate commander that would be responsible for calling for fighters to scramble. I do believe it was Hux who was like..."why the heck don't we have fighters over there?".

Not Hux, the dreadnought's captain. Whose role in the movie seems to be "veteran of the Imperial navy who can't believe how dumb the kids are these days".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Is that really his fault though? It's a giant Dreadnought - it's there to blow up bases and propaganda is how the First Order functions. Wanting to use it makes sense. Not having fighters in the area makes no sense though. Seems like it would be some subordinate commander that would be responsible for calling for fighters to scramble. I do believe it was Hux who was like..."why the heck don't we have fighters over there?".

Not Hux, the dreadnought's captain. Whose role in the movie seems to be "veteran of the Imperial navy who can't believe how dumb the kids are these days".

Oh the Irony.

Hux ordered Canady not to launch fighters. Or fire on Poe.

 Formosa wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It isn't, other than from context -- the context being every other SW movie in which this does not happen. I assumed there was a reason it didn't happen.

Apart from the obvious "it's space opera not physics" reason. You know, the same reason that Star Trek doesn't involve weaponised teleportation to put nukes into the warp drive of the enemy ship. Because its tropes, like those of SW, are derived from the war movies that the creators grew up on, not from science. And that's OK.

"sir they have built a moon sized planet killing star ship"

"its ok, we can just take 1 or 2 of our ships and Hyperspace ram it, thats all it will take"

"oh ok sir, glad we have you around!"

MY understanding of the situation is proximity.

You, in general, could not get a ship of significant enough size close enough to an enemy ship to do the hyperspace jump and have them collide before the ship fully enters hyperspace and can no longer interact with objects in real space.

This situation was unique in that they were flying strait towards her without firing any shots while she was aiming strait towards them. Because they were distracted she got into the sweet spot to do what she did.


In your deathstar scenario, any ship of significant size that got anywhere near the deathstar would be vaporized by it's many and massive arrays of weapons/other ships around it. They would never start to make the jump. And from farther out they wouldn't be hitting the deathstar, they would just be in hyperspace.

Snubfighters got plenty close to the Death Star. So did a freighter. We also know it doesn't take much damage to destroy the Death Star if you hit the thermal exhaust port. It's not exactly temporal mechanics.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It isn't, other than from context -- the context being every other SW movie in which this does not happen. I assumed there was a reason it didn't happen.

Apart from the obvious "it's space opera not physics" reason. You know, the same reason that Star Trek doesn't involve weaponised teleportation to put nukes into the warp drive of the enemy ship. Because its tropes, like those of SW, are derived from the war movies that the creators grew up on, not from science. And that's OK.

"sir they have built a moon sized planet killing star ship"

"its ok, we can just take 1 or 2 of our ships and Hyperspace ram it, thats all it will take"

"oh ok sir, glad we have you around!"

MY understanding of the situation is proximity.

You, in general, could not get a ship of significant enough size close enough to an enemy ship to do the hyperspace jump and have them collide before the ship fully enters hyperspace and can no longer interact with objects in real space.

This situation was unique in that they were flying strait towards her without firing any shots while she was aiming strait towards them. Because they were distracted she got into the sweet spot to do what she did.


In your deathstar scenario, any ship of significant size that got anywhere near the deathstar would be vaporized by it's many and massive arrays of weapons/other ships around it. They would never start to make the jump. And from farther out they wouldn't be hitting the deathstar, they would just be in hyperspace.

While your explanation is very plausable, all we are shown is she turns the ship around and hits the hyperdrive..... plus take an Xwing, hyperdrive that at the star destroyer, the damage would cripple it... its a stupid idea that they introduced to star wars and hopefully it will be forgotten about.

 Earth127 wrote:
Hux ordered Canady not to launch fighters. Or fire on Poe.

Humm I didn't recall that. It is very stupid I will grant you that. The whole scene was basically designed to make Hux look like an idiot though. Talking over the radio to Poe and acting like a fool while everyone is laughing at him.

The Hyperspace Ram is the equivalent of 40K's "Drive Closer so I can hit them with my sword!"

To move away from how desperately bad TLJ is for a moment, one thing I notice about the scores for both TFA and TLJ is that they studiously avoid the Imperial March. I think this contributes to the suspicion that the FO is a counterfeit Empire. Do you reckon we will see the actual post-RotJ Empire at some point, and maybe they will for example help the Resistance get back on their feet because they sense how dangerous the FO is to the galaxy at large, especially absent the New Republic, and maybe then we will hear a sort of heroic version of the Imperial March?

 Manchu wrote:
To move away from how desperately bad TLJ is for a moment, one thing I notice about the scores for both TFA and TLJ is that they studiously avoid the Imperial March. I think this contributes to the suspicion that the FO is a counterfeit Empire. Do you reckon we will see the actual post-RotJ Empire at some point, and maybe they will for example help the Resistance get back on their feet because they sense how dangerous the FO is to the galaxy at large, especially absent the New Republic, and maybe then we will hear a sort of heroic version of the Imperial March?

No.

I think Episode 9 is going to see the end of anything like the modern era of Starwars outside of side movies about specific established characters. I think we are looking towards a time jump forward that will see everyone currently involved long dead and the galaxy in a whole new place. Daisy Ridley and everyone were only contracted for these 3 movies. For a company thats now planning some 10 years down the line in churning out movies I think thats telling.

I kind of hope we end up in a place with no centralized galactic government at all. Instead just a bunch of smaller galactic nations that rule entirely independent of each other.

 Lance845 wrote:
I kind of hope we end up in a place with no centralized galactic government at all. Instead just a bunch of smaller galactic nations that rule entirely independent of each other.

But that doesn't contradict what I said.

 Manchu wrote:
To move away from how desperately bad TLJ is for a moment, one thing I notice about the scores for both TFA and TLJ is that they studiously avoid the Imperial March. I think this contributes to the suspicion that the FO is a counterfeit Empire. Do you reckon we will see the actual post-RotJ Empire at some point, and maybe they will for example help the Resistance get back on their feet because they sense how dangerous the FO is to the galaxy at large, especially absent the New Republic, and maybe then we will hear a sort of heroic version of the Imperial March?

One could hope, but, Im not banking on it.

Wait, is that true? Is the Empire still going?

Yes the FO is a breakaway from the mainline Imperial successor state, which is still ruled from Coruscant as far as I understand.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Wait, is that true? Is the Empire still going?

Yeah, the Empire still controls, and is confined to, most of the Core Worlds and Inner Rim. The treaty just prevents them from recruiting and mobilizing Stormtroopers, and they had to disband the Imperial Academies. Oh and Coruscant was ceded to the Republic.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

its actually difficult to say as neither director could be bothered to make anything up about what if anything the FO stood for. They are just the "Evil Empire"

That's a standard trope. The audience doesn't need an explanation. Most of the audience don't care about the backstory. Lucas was equally slack about developing the backstory of the Empire in A New Hope. No-one cared.

The ironic thing is that lots of modern people know so little about the history of the real Nazis until it gets to WW2.

but isn't this the super intetelectual vision of how film making should be done (as per the critics) shouldn't this apparently god like subversion of the narrative at least say something about the FO?

Yeah, the Empire still controls, and is confined to, most of the Core Worlds and Inner Rim. The treaty just prevents them from recruiting and mobilizing Stormtroopers, and they had to disband the Imperial Academies. Oh and Coruscant was ceded to the Republic.

I had no idea about that from the films - I just assumed the Repblic won and the empire died and "from its ashes arose the FO?"