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As long as GW doesn't decide to trim units off again (like Rough Riders) that don't have an official model I believe we should be in at least on okay position. Nothing has dipped even close to Grey Knights levels of bad since that came out. Necrons were pretty mediocre, but that's the worst codex I can think of in the last year. Even then they aren't horrible. Internal and external balance has been getting better. it looks like Games Workshop is getting better.

 cuda1179 wrote:
As long as GW doesn't decide to trim units off again (like Rough Riders) that don't have an official model I believe we should be in at least on okay position. Nothing has dipped even close to Grey Knights levels of bad since that came out. Necrons were pretty mediocre, but that's the worst codex I can think of in the last year. Even then they aren't horrible. Internal and external balance has been getting better. it looks like Games Workshop is getting better.

Which means it's about time for them to deviate for no perceivable reason.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Speed Freaks could easily be done by having an Ork version of Chapter Tactics. Nothing else is really needed for them.

Sure, if the klan tactic for speed Freakz is "All fast attacks cost 1/2 as much and gain x2 amount of shots per weapon."

SemperMortis wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Speed Freaks could easily be done by having an Ork version of Chapter Tactics. Nothing else is really needed for them.

Sure, if the klan tactic for speed Freakz is "All fast attacks cost 1/2 as much and gain x2 amount of shots per weapon."

... that'll never happen codex or not, most likely speed Freakz would get something like "all vehicles add +1 inch to movement" which could be kinda neat if Orks also get the "red onez go fasta" rule.

Speed Freaks might not get anything since they're not an actual clan.

BrianDavion wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Speed Freaks could easily be done by having an Ork version of Chapter Tactics. Nothing else is really needed for them.

Sure, if the klan tactic for speed Freakz is "All fast attacks cost 1/2 as much and gain x2 amount of shots per weapon."

... that'll never happen codex or not, most likely speed Freakz would get something like "all vehicles add +1 inch to movement" which could be kinda neat if Orks also get the "red onez go fasta" rule.

lol my point was that Speed Freakz as they currently stand are not "easily done" because they are all heavily over priced, lack damage output and have no staying power. At the moment the only Fast Attack slot that is considered remotely competitive is Stormboyz and only because they are basically Fast boyz for 2pts extra. Just like Kommandos were good (until they got nerfed) because they were basically boyz that could deepstrike for 3pts extra.

I just can't see Speed Freakz being competitive without a HEAVY reworking of the units stats as they currently stand. Even a hefty price reduction wouldn't fix most of their issues. Take Warbikes as an example. Even if you reduced them to 7th edition price (33% decrease in cost) they still wouldn't be all that effective pt for pt because they would still cost 3x as much as a boyz model and barely putout more dakka then an equivalent number of boyz, the only difference is that it would have a 4+ save instead of a 6+ but that is basically negated by the pure number of high AP 2dmg weapons in the game. I can't even think of a way to make Deffkoptas playable, they are desperately in need of a price reduction and either an increase in ranged damage or some other mechanic.


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 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Speed Freaks might not get anything since they're not an actual clan.

Evil Sunz

I've been enjoying Guy Haley's new Ork audio dramas.

BrianDavion wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Speed Freaks could easily be done by having an Ork version of Chapter Tactics. Nothing else is really needed for them.

Sure, if the klan tactic for speed Freakz is "All fast attacks cost 1/2 as much and gain x2 amount of shots per weapon."

... that'll never happen codex or not, most likely speed Freakz would get something like "all vehicles add +1 inch to movement" which could be kinda neat if Orks also get the "red onez go fasta" rule.

If this was the clan rule that we got. If this is as inventive and intelligent as GW could be when creating Evil Sunz clan tactics I would straight leave the game.
+1 inch to vehicle movement is fething garbage.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Speed Freaks could easily be done by having an Ork version of Chapter Tactics. Nothing else is really needed for them.

Sure, if the klan tactic for speed Freakz is "All fast attacks cost 1/2 as much and gain x2 amount of shots per weapon."

... that'll never happen codex or not, most likely speed Freakz would get something like "all vehicles add +1 inch to movement" which could be kinda neat if Orks also get the "red onez go fasta" rule.

If this was the clan rule that we got. If this is as inventive and intelligent as GW could be when creating Evil Sunz clan tactics I would straight leave the game.
+1 inch to vehicle movement is fething garbage.

I can see the rule being +1" to move, advance and charge. So 3" effectively if you do move, advanve and charge. That wouldn't be too shabby. Applied to all units, that's it.

for speedfreaks/evil sunz
=hopefully an full 6inches on runs for bikes and all wheeled and tracked vehicles and flyers (this way it wont be unintentionally a buff to walker armies)(and this sounds way better then a basic +1 to move)( maybe add a d6 to run! for a strat for adding onto the auto 6)

for dreadmob/deathskulls
=add the ramshackle rule to all walkers (greatly increases the survivability to all of them without giving them native invuls and maybe a strat to increase the 6up to a 5up or 4up for ramshackle)

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Speed Freaks could easily be done by having an Ork version of Chapter Tactics. Nothing else is really needed for them.

Sure, if the klan tactic for speed Freakz is "All fast attacks cost 1/2 as much and gain x2 amount of shots per weapon."

... that'll never happen codex or not, most likely speed Freakz would get something like "all vehicles add +1 inch to movement" which could be kinda neat if Orks also get the "red onez go fasta" rule.

If this was the clan rule that we got. If this is as inventive and intelligent as GW could be when creating Evil Sunz clan tactics I would straight leave the game.
+1 inch to vehicle movement is fething garbage.

I can see the rule being +1" to move, advance and charge. So 3" effectively if you do move, advanve and charge. That wouldn't be too shabby. Applied to all units, that's it.

That would mean that mobs of boys benefit from it the most, not vehicles. Which is extremely unfluffy.

 JawRippa wrote:

That would mean that mobs of boys benefit from it the most, not vehicles. Which is extremely unfluffy.

They could just word it so it only applies to vehicles, bikers and the fliers. I peronally hope it affects just those things but the bonus is +3" to the move characteristic and they can also advance and charge. That would make it more likely to ram battlewagons into the enemy turn 1 and then turn 2 everything disembarks the transport and charges as well.

+1 to ork vehicles is garbage, even if its +1 in all 3 movement phases it is still garbage.

Like I said earlier, the entire ork fast attack slot needs a heavy reworking, and the battlewagonz and Trukkz that accompany Fast Attack choices are garbage as well and need both a massive price drop and a durability buff. T7 with a 4+ save just isn't tough no matter how many wounds you assign it.

For a Evil Sunz Klan Tactic I would like to see something that actually gives a meaningful buff to fast options but that doesn't necessarily just increase their speed. Warbikers, Warbuggies and Deffkoptas all need massive increases to their damage output to be remotely competitive, almost every unit needs an increase in durability. Basically the only thing that is about right is the speed they already have.

Finally, just to really spell it out, this is why +1 to move/advance/charge is bad. Who benefits from that increased movement the most? Trukkz? Wagonz? koptas? Warbuggies? Nope, the answer is Stormboyz and warbikes, and it won't be used to be fast and flank opponents, it will be used to try and get into CC as quickly as possible, which for stormboyz is fine, but even warbikers shouldn't be doing that because they suck at CC. They are just a Boyz model with a cool toy after all, so 3 S4 attacks in CC isn't going to do much, hell if you had 12 boyz on warbikes its only 36 attacks, 24 hits and 12 wounds VS T4. Against a 3+ save that is only 4 dead Marines costing a grand total of 52pts and you spent a mere 324pts to kill that.... see what I mean?

There are so many fluffy ways for them to go about doing Klan Tactics, I just hope they don't go for the crappy ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:

 JawRippa wrote:

That would mean that mobs of boys benefit from it the most, not vehicles. Which is extremely unfluffy.

They could just word it so it only applies to vehicles, bikers and the fliers. I peronally hope it affects just those things but the bonus is +3" to the move characteristic and they can also advance and charge. That would make it more likely to ram battlewagons into the enemy turn 1 and then turn 2 everything disembarks the transport and charges as well.

That isn't that bad, its just sad that its just more boyz pulling the heavy weight while the wagon is a delivery method instead of its own unit. Even if you buy the Deff Rolla the Wagon isn't that impressive in CC, definitely not for 160pts.

I'm expecting the Evil Suns tactic to be different depending on the movement stat of the unit. If your move is 8" or less, you get a small bonus, if it's 9" or more you get a better one. I expect the actual benefit will be tied to advancing and be something like rolling two dice, pick the highest or add them both together depending on your movement.

I'm really struggling to think of what the other clans will get.

Goffs could get an extra benefit when charging, a general close combat bonus or some kind of leadership buff (probably a re-roll).

Blood Axes are likely to get +1 to saves while in cover, which would actually make cover worthwhile and stacks nicely for kommandos.

Snakebites are a total mystery. They could get a bonus to being sneaky, be tougher, get a bonus to hit against certain targets (probably ones with 10+ wounds) or a bunch or other stuff.

Bad Moons are likewise a bit hard to guess. They are stereotyped as the 'shooty' clan by the fanbase, but I'm not sure if that vision is shared by the designers. Possible things I could see them getting are extra range for their weapons, bonus to hit against certain targets or a morale effect from their shooting (maybe casualties count double for morale purposes).

Deff Skulls seem likely to have their luck emphasised, but there are a lot of ways that could be represented in the rules. I suspect that they will get re-rolls for natural 1s when making saving throws.

Yeah, obviously that tactic hinges on some general improvement to the units affected units for it to be useful. I'm just saying, something along those lines feels like a simple and fluffy rule for kult of speed arrmies. I'm hoping our vehicles get better but it's tough to figure out how to fix some of them. The battlewagon should be more effective, yes, but I'd rather have it being good than cheap. I'd prefer if the fix is not to keep current stats with a price drop but rather to improve it enough for it to be worth its points.

Amongst other things, 12 attacks with the deff rolla and all added choppy bits give additional attacks.
Maybe that embarked orks get to shoot overwatch as well if charged? Embarked orks get 1 close combat attack each if the vehicle is in close combat? Blows up bigger & easier?

Didn't oir like 2pts red paint upgrade give us +1"? If this was an entire clan trait I'd be angry as it's a straight up nerf from the last edition. Now... if they made red paint an upgrade that gave you +1" rather than a clan trait I'd be happy.

Ork vehicles upgrade comming back would be nice, too. I never understood why we lost ours, but eldar didn't.

Still paying for Choppa rule from third ed :-)

"Maximum 4+ save? Oh! The Humanity!"

Moriarty wrote:
Still paying for Choppa rule from third ed :-)

"Maximum 4+ save? Oh! The Humanity!"

Just had a thought about that. So back then Slugga Boys were 8 points each. If we had that rule again would what points if any should their be for models with a choppa?
Also, Shoota boys were 9 points each with the equivalent of a bolter. (with out the AP?)
That's what I'd like to get back some 24" rapid fire weapons. Maybe see the Snaz Gunz change from heavy 3 to rapid fire 3. Or would that be worse?

I've said other before but if GW had a brain they'd introduce synergies between our clan traits and units that should most benefit from them. For example have the clan trait allow an Evil Sunz unit to leave combat and charge (ala white scars). Now make warbikers, buggies, trakks, trukks and battlewagon's able to take an upgrade that allows them to deal mortal wounds on the charge. You've just made a fluffy and relatively useful synergy that encourages an army to play as its represented in lore.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I've said other before but if GW had a brain they'd introduce synergies between our clan traits and units that should most benefit from them. For example have the clan trait allow an Evil Sunz unit to leave combat and charge (ala white scars). Now make warbikers, buggies, trakks, trukks and battlewagon's able to take an upgrade that allows them to deal mortal wounds on the charge. You've just made a fluffy and relatively useful synergy that encourages an army to play as its represented in lore.

Do chapter traits for SM's buff vehicles or not? (for example) I don't know if, across all of 40K, which abilities buff vehicle models and which don't.
If it's not common place I can't expect it.
Admittedly I have only bothered to hardly skim the Harlequin Index and not bothered at all to look in depth at anything outside of index Orks.
If it isn't green I don't really care enough to look.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I've said other before but if GW had a brain they'd introduce synergies between our clan traits and units that should most benefit from them. For example have the clan trait allow an Evil Sunz unit to leave combat and charge (ala white scars). Now make warbikers, buggies, trakks, trukks and battlewagon's able to take an upgrade that allows them to deal mortal wounds on the charge. You've just made a fluffy and relatively useful synergy that encourages an army to play as its represented in lore.

The issue I have with that approach is I'd like it to be possible to mix different clans within the same army, ideally in the same detachment. But if you can do that and the clan bonus suits some units more than others, then the most effective force is going to be each unit getting the clan which is best suited to it and single-clan armies being at a disadvantage.

So, ideally, I'd like to have every clan bonus be roughly as good on every unit, but also encourage an overall play-style. So Evil Suns make everything more mobile, Deffskulls make everything more survivable, etc. Unfortunately, the number of mechanics which do that are fairly limited... you've got re-rolling 1s to hit (in both shooting and melee), wound (ditto) or save, +1 to strength or toughness, -1 to hit you, double cover benefit and that's about it. Everything else is kind of biased towards or against some units.

It seems almost as though the tactics will need to be different for different units in order to satisfy me.

SemperMortis wrote:
[
lol my point was that Speed Freakz as they currently stand are not "easily done" because they are all heavily over priced, lack damage output and have no staying power. At the moment the only Fast Attack slot that is considered remotely competitive is Stormboyz and only because they are basically Fast boyz for 2pts extra. Just like Kommandos were good (until they got nerfed) because they were basically boyz that could deepstrike for 3pts extra.

I just can't see Speed Freakz being competitive without a HEAVY reworking of the units stats as they currently stand. Even a hefty price reduction wouldn't fix most of their issues. Take Warbikes as an example. Even if you reduced them to 7th edition price (33% decrease in cost) they still wouldn't be all that effective pt for pt because they would still cost 3x as much as a boyz model and barely putout more dakka then an equivalent number of boyz, the only difference is that it would have a 4+ save instead of a 6+ but that is basically negated by the pure number of high AP 2dmg weapons in the game. I can't even think of a way to make Deffkoptas playable, they are desperately in need of a price reduction and either an increase in ranged damage or some other mechanic.

Of course they need a point reduction. I was talking about a model perspective. Yeah, I guess we could use a new plastic deathcopta. The Truck looks good, bikers are good, and stormboys are okay. looks good, bikers are good, and stormboys are okay.

LOOK you ork boyz got yourself some news post in the community pages https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/08/waaagh-berman/


*flees the thread*

 warhead01 wrote:

Do chapter traits for SM's buff vehicles or not? (for example) I don't know if, across all of 40K, which abilities buff vehicle models and which don't.
If it's not common place I can't expect it.

In general, SM Chapters and Chaos Legions only affect infantry, bikes and dreads.
Every other "chapter tactics" bonus affects all models in the detachment, though a few impose additional limitation on the bonus or parts of the bonus, like Saim-Hann for bikes or Catachans for infantry and vehicles.

It's pretty safe to say ork clans in general will affect all units, with the possibility of some buffs restricted to bikes, infantry and/or vehicles.


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 Overread wrote:
LOOK you ork boyz got yourself some news post in the community pages https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/08/waaagh-berman/


*flees the thread*

What really sets him apart from other ork armies is being about 120 boyz short of a viable army

 warhead01 wrote:

Moriarty wrote:
Still paying for Choppa rule from third ed :-)

"Maximum 4+ save? Oh! The Humanity!"

Just had a thought about that. So back then Slugga Boys were 8 points each. If we had that rule again would what points if any should their be for models with a choppa?
Also, Shoota boys were 9 points each with the equivalent of a bolter. (with out the AP?)
That's what I'd like to get back some 24" rapid fire weapons. Maybe see the Snaz Gunz change from heavy 3 to rapid fire 3. Or would that be worse?

It's funny how Rapid Fire weapons have improved. I remember back when Shootas were Rapid Fire in the 3rd Ed codex and they were completely worthless, as Shoota Boyz were far better at close combat than shooting but if they moved they had one shot at 12" so they might as well have had a Slugga.

I can see your point with making Snazzgunz Rapid Fire. If they became Rapid Fire 3, and Flash Gitz got a 4+ save, and transports went way down in price, then Flash Gitz might be worth taking.

 Overread wrote:
LOOK you ork boyz got yourself some news post in the community pages https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/08/waaagh-berman/


*flees the thread*

I shared a picture over there and said green is best. 40K told me that blue is better...
Deff Skulls best clan n codex confirmed.

 warhead01 wrote:

 Overread wrote:
LOOK you ork boyz got yourself some news post in the community pages https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/08/waaagh-berman/


*flees the thread*

I shared a picture over there and said green is best. 40K told me that blue is better...
Deff Skulls best clan n codex confirmed.

I think you mean a new SM codex is coming out first

At the very least it's a good thing orks are getting some attention on the community website.One or two articles like this and then some stuff from GW themselves often seem to precede a codex release. And the army itself looked really cool! Did I miss it or was it explained how he did the flames for the stormboyz?

 Jidmah wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

Do chapter traits for SM's buff vehicles or not? (for example) I don't know if, across all of 40K, which abilities buff vehicle models and which don't.
If it's not common place I can't expect it.

In general, SM Chapters and Chaos Legions only affect infantry, bikes and dreads.
Every other "chapter tactics" bonus affects all models in the detachment, though a few impose additional limitation on the bonus or parts of the bonus, like Saim-Hann for bikes or Catachans for infantry and vehicles.

It's pretty safe to say ork clans in general will affect all units, with the possibility of some buffs restricted to bikes, infantry and/or vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
LOOK you ork boyz got yourself some news post in the community pages https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/08/waaagh-berman/


*flees the thread*

the "power armor" codices got screwed in that regard yeah

What really sets him apart from other ork armies is being about 120 boyz short of a viable army