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geargutz wrote:
"Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
maybe a main battle tank. wagon often is associated with the battlewagon, and so i think this would be a real dakka version of that.

"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
hmm, not really sure how this will look, maybe a tracked vehicle with a literal jet engine, maybe its that warboss looking guy in the shock jump background since it sorta looks like maybe a tracked vehicle...and if the boss is on it with a grappling claw (i think it looks like a metal cutters version of a claw) then he would want the best speed.

"Squig Buggies"
i suspect a type of warbuggy but pulled by bigger squigs, this could be a unit to help flesh out the snakebites faction.

I would actually imagine the jet to be an actual flyer, but extremely cheap so we could fill the skies with them.

tbh they all kinda sound like really overpriced shooting platforms, but thats what ive come to expect from most ork shooting.


Just trying keep our pessimism at appropriate levels.

I just hope we finally get a Grot HQ for all of us who run Rebels.

 Billagio wrote:
tbh they all kinda sound like really overpriced shooting platforms, but thats what ive come to expect from most ork shooting.


Just trying keep our pessimism at appropriate levels.

While I appreciate the yang to our yin, I can actually see these new vehicles being the classic "paper-thin but expendable vehicles" our line is supposed to be known for. I tentatively predict they'll be around 60 points a pop with decent shooting (for orks) while the trukk will decrease in points to around 55 or so and keep its current stats. For some reason I really feel GW is trying to push a vehicle focus on orks, which I am 100% down with.

geargutz wrote:
"

"Squig Buggies"
i suspect a type of warbuggy but pulled by bigger squigs, this could be a unit to help flesh out the snakebites faction.

we can have it and Logan Grimnar race!

Late to the party as usual, but I just wanted to chime in about how excited I am for the new Ork line. Like genuinely excited about it in a way that GW has never paid off on before. The last codex/model release was okay (flashgitz, new trukk design, stormboyz yay, but boo! generic battlewagon design). Now it looks like Orks may become competitive fir the first time, have a true unique character on the tabletop (instead of being fighty and bad at literally everything else every other army is great at). These new models are the kind of fantastic that makes me want to build at least one of each straight out of the box instead of just buying them for conversion parts. I'm really looking forward to seeing more and for the first time, I'm actually saving money specifically for an Ork release. WAAAAAGH!

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

While I appreciate the yang to our yin, I can actually see these new vehicles being the classic "paper-thin but expendable vehicles" our line is supposed to be known for. I tentatively predict they'll be around 60 points a pop with decent shooting (for orks) while the trukk will decrease in points to around 55 or so and keep its current stats. For some reason I really feel GW is trying to push a vehicle focus on orks, which I am 100% down with.

i agree, by now hopefully GW noticed that only ork green tides are brought to tournaments (and hopefully playtester feedback has told them this as well).
GW will wantt the new ork vehicles to sell well, and (despite previous orks releases) generaly they give new vehicle units for other armies good rules to help sell them (i imagine GW is aware that many ork players who got hundreds of boys got them through 2nd hand and there is little use trying to give good rules for boys to increase the profit margin).

my brother plays deldar, and all his monstrous creatures (talos/kronos) got good points reductions which mad them actualy worth bringing in his lists becasue thay are tough and realtivly cheap and act as realy good distractions for the rest of his force. while all our dredds are hardly durable, if they become cheap enough then they can easily become a great frightening looking unit that acts as the distraction carnifex, and if your opponent ignores them then maybe they can get into combat for some damage.

tldr, GW is putting alot of effort into making us at least 4 new vehicle units, they will want to make their rules worth while to help sell product. (look at the facebook posts for the new buggies and pretty much any non ork player is already thinking of giving up some green to get some green, no way GW wont jump at this chance to incentivize getting more of that green if a bunch of players start collecting ork armies)

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Playing my Orkz yesterday (vs Orks too), I thought a pretty good (maybe cheesy) stratagem would be to let an entire Ork unit make a Heroic Intervention, when a friendly unit gets charged as the Ork boyz just wanna get into a fight.

It would be a foil to the T'au and their annoying overwatch, and seems damn fluffy.

How would it foil Tau as they wouldnt' be charging you and ergo no HI?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

geargutz wrote:
generaly they give new vehicle units for other armies good rules to help sell them

Oh please not this busted urban myth again. For every new unit that is broken one can bring out example of new units that were total garbage when they came. Tau flyers. DA flyer. Dino bots. Hell ogryns were bad when they were first released. Nevermind all the examples from ork.

Here's secret: GW doesn't deliberately make units too good/too weak. They just do what they think is cool. They aren't competent enough to make a good balanced game which makes them incompetent for actually doing what you suggest.

What they do for sales is shuffle up balances periodically so that meta changes but even that's fairly random.

That urban myth is like a whack'a'mole. No matter how many times it gets busted it comes back up again.

tneva82 wrote:

That urban myth is like a whack'a'mole. No matter how many times it gets busted it comes back up again.

those units you listed, how old are they? besides the last ork release and maybe the primaris marines what recent released stuff has had terible rules?

list of units with great rules when they were relased
guiliman
celestine
stormsurge
imp knight
new dakka knight
alot of the admek (most notibly the castelens)
cawl
mortarion and his deathguard
magnus
sisters of silence
custodes
genesteeler cults
sm centurians

now that isn't all of the recent models (but the stuff that was good when it came out and influenced the meta)
you only listed a few things from older releases. i am welcome to be proven wrong here, this isn't a hill for me to die on. im open to see if we can determine a pattern from GW to determine how the new ork models will do. based on what ive seen of the last releases of GW models i would suspect GW would want to keep with it.

geargutz wrote:
"Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
maybe a main battle tank. wagon often is associated with the battlewagon, and so i think this would be a real dakka version of that.

"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
hmm, not really sure how this will look, maybe a tracked vehicle with a literal jet engine, maybe its that warboss looking guy in the shock jump background since it sorta looks like maybe a tracked vehicle...and if the boss is on it with a grappling claw (i think it looks like a metal cutters version of a claw) then he would want the best speed.

"Squig Buggies"
i suspect a type of warbuggy but pulled by bigger squigs, this could be a unit to help flesh out the snakebites faction.

The Snazz wagon needs to be a gunboat focused on the Freebootas I think. So hopefully it has some snazzguns strapped to it with Freebootas manning them.

I think it would be genius if the scrap jet was a plane of some sort with trakks slapped on to it (with no intention of allowing flight). I think it could be the boss trike too.

If squig buggies aren't vehicles driven by squigs GW has missed a trick. Maybe its our equivalent to thunder wolf cavalry at a push with Orks rising squigs into battle (with a few mods of course). Could be a squig powered buggy.

tneva82 wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

It would be a foil to the T'au and their annoying overwatch, and seems damn fluffy.

How would it foil Tau as they wouldnt' be charging you and ergo no HI?

Heroic Intervention still happens even if the Tau oppknent takes no charges. They always have a charge 'phase' and can't opt to skip it. It would work well as a foil to Tau overwatch shenanigans.

I hope the new vehicles are moderately priced in terms of points. They are big models and feel to me like they should be more than a 60pt investment (solely based in looks of course). I reckon 80 - 120 is perhaps where they should sit.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Heroic Intervention still happens even if the Tau oppknent takes no charges. They always have a charge 'phase' and can't opt to skip it. It would work well as a foil to Tau overwatch shenanigans.

Not when we are talking about new ability that would allow HI by entire army when you get charged...

Frankly army wide HI regardless of do you get charged or not would be silly to extreme.

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Heroic Intervention still happens even if the Tau oppknent takes no charges. They always have a charge 'phase' and can't opt to skip it. It would work well as a foil to Tau overwatch shenanigans.

Not when we are talking about new ability that would allow HI by entire army when you get charged...

Frankly army wide HI regardless of do you get charged or not would be silly to extreme.

Ah I see your point, the suggested stratagem was only to work when one of your units gets charged.

I don't see an issue with a stratagem that would allow a singular unit the ability to HI once per turn. Seems incredibly fluffy to me.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Heroic Intervention still happens even if the Tau oppknent takes no charges. They always have a charge 'phase' and can't opt to skip it. It would work well as a foil to Tau overwatch shenanigans.

Not when we are talking about new ability that would allow HI by entire army when you get charged...

Frankly army wide HI regardless of do you get charged or not would be silly to extreme.

Ah I see your point, the suggested stratagem was only to work when one of your units gets charged.

I don't see an issue with a stratagem that would allow a singular unit the ability to HI once per turn. Seems incredibly fluffy to me.

Aaah I misread. I managed to read entire army. That's what tripped me. I had image of entire army doing HI. Without being charged and somehow being meaningful would be broken and in response to tau charging...well tau ain't really charging so not seeing how it would be foil to tau overwatch.

Still don't see how this would foil tau but yeah would be fun strategem and could see usage for it if not too expensive.

tneva82 wrote:

Aaah I misread. I managed to read entire army. That's what tripped me. I had image of entire army doing HI. Without being charged and somehow being meaningful would be broken and in response to tau charging...well tau ain't really charging so not seeing how it would be foil to tau overwatch.

Still don't see how this would foil tau but yeah would be fun strategem and could see usage for it if not too expensive.

Lol if it was the entire army it would be broken for sure!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


If squig buggies aren't vehicles driven by squigs GW has missed a trick. Maybe its our equivalent to thunder wolf cavalry at a push with Orks rising squigs into battle (with a few mods of course). Could be a squig powered buggy.

squig powered, would be hilarious for a vehcile to have a hamster wheel full of hungry squigs chasing a snotling on stick.....i need this.

geargutz wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


If squig buggies aren't vehicles driven by squigs GW has missed a trick. Maybe its our equivalent to thunder wolf cavalry at a push with Orks rising squigs into battle (with a few mods of course). Could be a squig powered buggy.

squig powered, would be hilarious for a vehcile to have a hamster wheel full of hungry squigs chasing a snotling on stick.....i need this.

Definitely.

I'm not sure if I prefer the idea of Squig driven though!

geargutz wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
while all our dredds are hardly durable, if they become cheap enough then they can easily become a great frightening looking unit that acts as the distraction carnifex, and if your opponent ignores them then maybe they can get into combat for some damage.

We had a rather lengthy discussion about this in the "how to fix orks" thread, and there was a consensus that dreads need to become faster and/or more durable, not cheaper. Currently they are worth about 60-70, if at all. When you look at it from just the gaming aspect, you could do that, but from an economic view, you have yet another 180 point unit for 120€, blowing up the costs for playing orks even more.

well if your not sold on squig chariots then i found this cool conversion


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


We had a rather lengthy discussion about this in the "how to fix orks" thread, and there was a consensus that dreads need to become faster and/or more durable, not cheaper. Currently they are worth about 60-70, if at all. When you look at it from just the gaming aspect, you could do that, but from an economic view, you have yet another 180 point unit for 120€, blowing up the costs for playing orks even more.

you kinda misquoted there, but i no issue with that. but im not sure if the "consensus" was what you said it was, i made a case (in the same thread you were talking about) that maybe half off all our dredds might make them more playable and i didnt get backlash about it.

also, lets not try to kid ourselves, orks are a horde army.
my brother once told me (after i had been complaining about green tide being our only thing) that i should just give in and just accept that orks are a horde army...and i said "yes, i agree, its just i would like to bring a horde of walkers or a horde of buggies and trukks or a horde of flyers besides just boyz".

orks fluff wise are known for bringing cheaply made stuff that is cobbled together and hosted in mass to overwhelm the enemy. if we make the dredds we have into super durable and speedy vehicles then we are losing what makes orks orks. if we go to far and we will become an elite army like the custodes.

i dont expect a defdredd to got toe to toe with a dreadnought and win, i expect a dreadnought to fall under the weight of 3 deffdredds.

im not opposed to maybe adding an inch or 2 or adding an extra wound or 2 or even giving their weapons more damage (mork knows our dakka is not enough), or having strategems allow our vehicle to tellyport closer to the enemy,but lets not get carried away.

yes, cheaper pointed ork models will cause makeing a large ork army more expensive, GW has poor pricing strategies, but thats a little sacrifice we all have to bear if we want to play orks. if you didnt want to pay as much money to collect a "horde" army you would've chosen another faction, but i believe you love orks for what they are, the dangerous hooligans that will "flood" the galaxy in our waaaaaaaaaaagh

GW's power levels are all over the place. They are not consistent.

Some times they have clearly pointed things to encourage sales (we know this is why Wraithknights were comedically cheap in 7th). Other times they have not (see - well, Orks.)

What Ork players should hope for is a writer who cares about the army, has a clear idea of how they should be in the fluff, and then tries to put this across in the special rules.
This is then pointed at an efficient level.
The result is a book like DE or IG where almost every choice is characterful and efficient. The result is a codex with good internal balance and various different build possibilities (even if a few are going to be more optimal than the rest).

What you want to avoid is a Necron codex, where there is very little inspiration, and most units are just two stat lines (model+guns) with the army special rules on top. There is consequently relatively little flavour or synergy and the army kind of sucks.

It will be hard to make every Ork unit viable - but they managed with IG & DE. They could manage with Orks.

geargutz wrote:
you kinda misquoted there, but i no issue with that. but im not sure if the "consensus" was what you said it was, i made a case (in the same thread you were talking about) that maybe half off all our dredds might make them more playable and i didnt get backlash about it.

also, lets not try to kid ourselves, orks are a horde army.
my brother once told me (after i had been complaining about green tide being our only thing) that i should just give in and just accept that orks are a horde army...and i said "yes, i agree, its just i would like to bring a horde of walkers or a horde of buggies and trukks or a horde of flyers besides just boyz".

orks fluff wise are known for bringing cheaply made stuff that is cobbled together and hosted in mass to overwhelm the enemy. if we make the dredds we have into super durable and speedy vehicles then we are losing what makes orks orks. if we go to far and we will become an elite army like the custodes.

i dont expect a defdredd to got toe to toe with a dreadnought and win, i expect a dreadnought to fall under the weight of 3 deffdredds.

This may be your head-canon, but all official sources portrait deff dreads as close combat monsters that easily compare to dreads.
See: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deff_Dread (note that the description is pretty much copy&paste from an official GW book)
The unit you are describing is killa kanz, not deff dreads.

Same for about any other larger walker or vehicle. They are pet projects of the clan's mek or priced possessions of their warboss. Ork infantry and bikes are horde units. You will not find any fluff that will support hordes of deff dreads or battlewagons. Hordes of walkers, planes or battlewagons only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks, like on Armageddon or on Castorel Novem. In novels, a single ork dread or battlewagon usually is a massive problem to overcome for the imperial protagonists.

yes, cheaper pointed ork models will cause makeing a large ork army more expensive, GW has poor pricing strategies, but thats a little sacrifice we all have to bear if we want to play orks. if you didnt want to pay as much money to collect a "horde" army you would've chosen another faction, but i believe you love orks for what they are, the dangerous hooligans that will "flood" the galaxy in our waaaaaaaaaaagh

Three units of KMK, three units of MANz and three units of Dreads clock in at 1136€ for 1800 points. You can buy 2000 points of any two other horde army of your choice for that price.
Don't tell people to get rich or GTFO.

why do i argue with you so often. oh well.

 Jidmah wrote:

This may be your head-canon, but all official sources portrait deff dreads as close combat monsters that easily compare to dreads.
See: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deff_Dread (note that the description is pretty much copy&paste from an official GW book)
The unit you are describing is killa kanz, not deff dreads.

Same for about any other larger walker or vehicle. They are pet projects of the clan's mek or priced possessions of their warboss. Ork infantry and bikes are horde units. You will not find any fluff that will support hordes of deff dreads or battlewagons. Hordes of walkers, planes or battlewagons only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks, like on Armageddon or on Castorel Novem. In novels, a single ork dread or battlewagon usually is a massive problem to overcome for the imperial protagonists.

Three units of KMK, three units of MANz and three units of Dreads clock in at 1136€ for 1800 points. You can buy 2000 points of any two other horde army of your choice for that price.
Don't tell people to get rich or GTFO.

ok, i might agree with you if there isnt literal fluff that supports large collections of about any ork vehicle. from dreadmobs to blitz brigades to bully boyz to bundles of gmorkanauts or hordes of dakkajets... i can go on and on. and its not an argument that these things "only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks".....so you mean that ork vehicles horde up when orks horde up.... .....your logic is undeniable.

that same dreadnought can easily shoot down 2 deffdredds as they run at it, and the 3rd will get in with those deadly claws.

i did not tell anyone to "GTFO", i said that we are here not because orks are cheap to start up, but that we love them for being what they are, witch is a horde army. if you really love something you will invest in it.

I mean, yes, we can all agree that the mek guns are absolutely ridonkulous from a money to points perspective. They might be the worst offenders in the game (no idea if that's true but it wouldn't shock me) For the reasons you stated Jidmah I'd really like the battlewagons to be better statwise, not cheaper. Maybe a few more wounds, extra damage/attacks/mortal wounds on the charge, more upgrades etc..

As for the other new rumoured vehicles, they all sound really exciting and the names are crazy sounding enough that they might be true. I'm almost (though not quite) going to be sad if they're all as cool as the new buggies since it might be hard to squeeze them all into a list haha.

Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon
As an actual englishman pointed out, this sounds like a freeboota vehicle. So better shooting out of something sort of like a battlewagon maybe? But with less transport capacity, so sort of a killkannon upgrade on it as well.

Mega Trakk Scrap jet
I think this is just like a super wartrakk. Maybe the one the potential warboss is standing on? Although not sure if that is big enough to scream "mega"

Squig Buggies
All bets are off. Although DAMN YOU RULE OF THREE! .

Im down for having lots of dreads/walkers, buggies and other fast moving things, but I still want green tide to be a viable option. I love my boyz and still want them to be in integral part of an army if you want to take them.

That said some buffs to the gorkanaut would be nice

geargutz wrote:
ok, i might agree with you if there isnt literal fluff that supports large collections of about any ork vehicle. from dreadmobs to blitz brigades to bully boyz to bundles of gmorkanauts or hordes of dakkajets... i can go on and on. and its not an argument that these things "only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks".....so you mean that ork vehicles horde up when orks horde up.... .....your logic is undeniable.

All the things you mentioned are not common to orks across the galaxy but only found in Thrakka's Great Waaagh - which is the single largest Waaagh! in history since the War of the Beast and most of those formations have sprung from Thrakka's tactics. This is why they were only available for that specific book - mind blowing, right? Which means, outside of the The Great Waaagh!, none of these exist - with the exception of Dread Mobs, which also have been seen on Castorel Novem (aka Mekkslag Iks) - where the Waaagh! has become so big that an entire populations of Orks is just hanging around on multiple planets of a system, doing nothing but looting and building stuff.

Maybe you should read the fluff in the book with the rules you misunderstood as fluff before feeling qualified to judge someone's logic.

that same dreadnought can easily shoot down 2 deffdredds as they run at it, and the 3rd will get in with those deadly claws.

Rules are not fluff. I just quoted the official fluff to you, just because the rules don't match up doesn't make it less true. Ork Dreads should be able to be an equal to Space Marine dreads.

i did not tell anyone to "GTFO", i said that we are here not because orks are cheap to start up, but that we love them for being what they are, witch is a horde army. if you really love something you will invest in it.

Paying $150 (plus paints) for a 180 point unit is not normal, in any army. An average ork army would cost 2000€, I'm not sure even a sisters army is that expensive right now.
Saying "this is how it should be" is nothing but elitism and basically telling people with less disposable cash to GTFO, no matter if they like orks or not.
Orks have never been an expensive army to start up, quite the opposite. This massive increase in $/points has not existed before 7th edition's codex and supplement.

So I know we keep hearing and talking about primorks so it may essentially be confirmed at this point. However I'd like to point out a story that I believe was in the 5th edition codex. It was in the Mad Dok Grotsnik entry. It was talking about how he was working on stitching together some gargantuan ork project. Perhaps this is there segway to the primork release? I would quote the paragraph but it may take me a bit to find it.

"It is even rumoured that he is building his own composite super-Ork out of organs and body parts 'donated' by his customers."

This could also fit into the stitching GW hinted photo.

So I'm not sure what to think here. I love the new buggies to death but if they don't put some rule in the codex to overcome the minus to hit rules then why even give Ork models guns in the first place as they are all virtually useless?

Mr.Church13 wrote:
So I'm not sure what to think here. I love the new buggies to death but if they don't put some rule in the codex to overcome the minus to hit rules then why even give Ork models guns in the first place as they are all virtually useless?

would it be game breaking for certain weapons that aren't flamers to be auto hit within a certain range?

mhalko1 wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
So I'm not sure what to think here. I love the new buggies to death but if they don't put some rule in the codex to overcome the minus to hit rules then why even give Ork models guns in the first place as they are all virtually useless?

would it be game breaking for certain weapons that aren't flamers to be auto hit within a certain range?

Hopefully we get 6s always hitting and enough shots to compensate for our awful BS.

I suspect the Dragster will have BS4 since the gun looks to be fired by a Grot/Squig.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
So I'm not sure what to think here. I love the new buggies to death but if they don't put some rule in the codex to overcome the minus to hit rules then why even give Ork models guns in the first place as they are all virtually useless?

would it be game breaking for certain weapons that aren't flamers to be auto hit within a certain range?

Hopefully we get 6s always hitting and enough shots to compensate for our awful BS.

I suspect the Dragster will have BS4 since the gun looks to be fired by a Grot/Squig.

Personally I'd push for 5s always hit or have the 5s always hit tied to a clan tactic. I mean sure 6s always hit is not useless, but it's pretty darn close to it.

Meh, there has been a lot of maths and crap going around and even with 6s to always hit it honestly doesn't do a massive amount to benefit anyone. Most armies only have 1 unit that would ever be affected. IG would have to come across -2 or 3 before the rule comes into affect. Orks are basically the only faction that a simple -1to hit will cut almost 80+% (random geuss) of our units shooting in half (and make our heavy weapons units with a 6+save a pain to use and a waste of points as it turns them into expensive turrets that hitnon 6+). And againl even with 6+ to always hit it would do almost nothing on avarage for most players... it's more of a quality of life thing in case you're a loota army that comes against Raven Guard or something.