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With power fists at "WS3" 5 terminators with no extra attacks can on average rip apart a rhino. Which I'd consider the bare minimum for melee, for terminators anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer what do you think of terminators with a 3+ save but reroll ones? Might be too broken but isn't that what the rule of 3 is for?

 fraser1191 wrote:
With power fists at "WS3" 5 terminators with no extra attacks can on average rip apart a rhino. Which I'd consider the bare minimum for melee, for terminators anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer what do you think of terminators with a 3+ save but reroll ones? Might be too broken but isn't that what the rule of 3 is for?

3+ RR1s is worse than 2+.

Why not t5 termies ?

Because T5 does nothing for survivablity.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because T5 does nothing for survivablity.

It helps against S4, S5, S8, and S9. That's a lot of weapons in the game, including noted terminator killers like Overcharged Plasma.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Why not t5 termies ?

That's the shtick of Centurions. The trick is to make them distinctive from one another.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Anyway, this many pages in, are we closing in on a way to make Terminators worthwhile?

Sorta kind of. I am not really sure honestly, but i think we need a poster here to summarize the big major points made?

There have been half a dozen such posts already. This thread just needs to be closed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because T5 does nothing for survivablity.

It absolutely does have a direct impact just like Toughness 4 does over Toughness 3- just maybe not enough in this particular case.

Still say 1+ armour,
- no penalties mods on power fists etc.
Mix-match all temrinator weapons in squads

job done

I just think termies need the synergies SW ones have. Basically free +1 to hit in combat trait and up to +2A with buffing auras. Plenty of characters that also give them full re-roll to hit, 1s to hit or 1s to wound.

Add similar synergies for other SM armies. Problem solved. Wolf Guard termies with fists and shields cost 170 points which sounds very fair from 10 T4 2+/3++ W with free deepstrike that can have up to 21 attacks at S8 AP-3 DD3 in total plus re-rolls just with auras you may want anyway, no pure taxes.

Maybe they'd need to be also S5 but SW termies are already fine and I think other termies could be ok with similar synergies. Of course players need to adapt and stop thinking about SM as pure silly gunlines, like some sort of AM-1.

Terminators of all things should NOT be dependent on HQ buffs. That's the problem with that line of thinking. You can't price units around a buff that may or may not exist. You cost said buffer appropriately.

On top of that, Relentless would do nothing for most of the Terminator loadouts that actually exist in this game. Same thing goes for a strict 3+ to hit for Power Fists. You guys keep looking at ONE unit and applying it to a bunch of units and don't fix them.

That's why I keep hammering WS/BS2+ and an extra attack.

I think Termies should be WS/BS2+ OR an extra attack, not both. Personally, WS/BS2+ makes the most sense with them being the Chapter's "best of the best". The boost is WS is almost as good as an extra attack, but the boost in BS makes them fair more decent with Storm bolters.

But I'd also like to see some boost in durability, preferable 3Ws, but a 1+ save would be cool instead and certainly set them apart from Cents & Aggressors.
I like 3Ws far better than T5, bc it guarantees that Supercharged Plasma won't one-shot 1 or even 2 terminators, rather than making it 17% less likely.
Remember that most Plasma weapons have, or can be multiple shots via RF. So even a 3W Terminator can die from a single RF range Supercharged Plasma gun. But that same single gun cannot kill 2 whole 3W Terminators, which it currently can at 2W.

-

That brings them in the same lines as Centurions, which should be the wall, compared to Terminators being elite shock troopers.

The issue is Marines have too many damn units. (Okay, ONE of the issues.)

Do we really need three or four different types of heavy troopers?

 JNAProductions wrote:
The issue is Marines have too many damn units. (Okay, ONE of the issues.)

Do we really need three or four different types of heavy troopers?

I agree for sure there's a lot of units, which is why you've heard me repeat consolidation of Marine codices almost like a broken record.
It isn't terribly hard to differentiate that role overall but it requires work.

Personally I'm for consolidating the Tactical Terminator and Assault Terminators into a singular unit, which takes care of the issue that it makes no sense only Death Angels and their successors do that out of literally any Chapter that exists. The other Mk armors of Terminators perhaps need to be consolidated as one single profile into that statline as well; yeah it's nice to have a 4++ or an extra inch of movement, but there isn't a whole lot different with weapon profiles anyway. I'm iffy though as I said.

Centurions I would knock just a small amount of points off but give them an extra wound. It doesn't help vs D2 weapons, but helps with every random Damage roll and helps put two of them being closer to a Dread in durability. Dreads are at least now fine for durability with their price but they have the separate issue of not having a point of using melee weapons.

I'm off topic though with that.

Would improving BS/WS of all SM entries by 1 break them as a faction? I mean, SM as a whole does need to be a bit more killy to keep in line with the rest of the codex.

And yes, this would mean those currently BS 2+ would go to BS 1+

I mean there aren’t enough natural hit modifiers to give 1+ imo. If fighting someone who had a better ws caused your own hit roll to get worse, or fighting someone who had a sword of any kind caused your hit roll to get worse, like the old parry rules, then 1+ maybe. I don’t like it for just marines, but w/e.

A basic marine costs 13 points. A termie should cost 26 base.

You gain the ability to deep strike, and a 2+ save and a 5+, the ability to buy more gear, and 1 higher ld.


You loose the ability to soak up two multi-damage wounds, the troops slot, and obsec.


The tradeoff's are almost dead even. A termie is worth 2 marines.

 skchsan wrote:
Would improving BS/WS of all SM entries by 1 break them as a faction? I mean, SM as a whole does need to be a bit more killy to keep in line with the rest of the codex.

And yes, this would mean those currently BS 2+ would go to BS 1+

This is an absolutely dreadful idea.

 skchsan wrote:
Would improving BS/WS of all SM entries by 1 break them as a faction? I mean, SM as a whole does need to be a bit more killy to keep in line with the rest of the codex.

And yes, this would mean those currently BS 2+ would go to BS 1+

No BS1+ should be illegal, a hit roll of 1 after the eventual re-roll should always fail.

Why people think that SM firepower isn't powerful enough and want to turn them even more into AM or tau? It's definitely not their issue. They lack lots of other things, not the firepower. Many SM chapters have litterally zero close combat abilities which is absurd.

 skchsan wrote:
Would improving BS/WS of all SM entries by 1 break them as a faction? I mean, SM as a whole does need to be a bit more killy to keep in line with the rest of the codex.

And yes, this would mean those currently BS 2+ would go to BS 1+

and the same for all equally or more elite troops and characters I assume

 Blackie wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Would improving BS/WS of all SM entries by 1 break them as a faction? I mean, SM as a whole does need to be a bit more killy to keep in line with the rest of the codex.

And yes, this would mean those currently BS 2+ would go to BS 1+

No BS1+ should be illegal, a hit roll of 1 after the eventual re-roll should always fail.

Why people think that SM firepower isn't powerful enough and want to turn them even more into AM or tau? It's definitely not their issue. They lack lots of other things, not the firepower. Many SM chapters have litterally zero close combat abilities which is absurd.

All a 1+ would do is ignore the first -1 to hit. 1s would still miss.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Would improving BS/WS of all SM entries by 1 break them as a faction? I mean, SM as a whole does need to be a bit more killy to keep in line with the rest of the codex.

And yes, this would mean those currently BS 2+ would go to BS 1+

No BS1+ should be illegal, a hit roll of 1 after the eventual re-roll should always fail.

Why people think that SM firepower isn't powerful enough and want to turn them even more into AM or tau? It's definitely not their issue. They lack lots of other things, not the firepower. Many SM chapters have litterally zero close combat abilities which is absurd.

All a 1+ would do is ignore the first -1 to hit. 1s would still miss.

Actually, due to Special Snowflake FAQ, a 1+ means they are an unmodifiable 2+.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Would improving BS/WS of all SM entries by 1 break them as a faction? I mean, SM as a whole does need to be a bit more killy to keep in line with the rest of the codex.

And yes, this would mean those currently BS 2+ would go to BS 1+

No BS1+ should be illegal, a hit roll of 1 after the eventual re-roll should always fail.

Why people think that SM firepower isn't powerful enough and want to turn them even more into AM or tau? It's definitely not their issue. They lack lots of other things, not the firepower. Many SM chapters have litterally zero close combat abilities which is absurd.

All a 1+ would do is ignore the first -1 to hit. 1s would still miss.

Actually, due to Special Snowflake FAQ, a 1+ means they are an unmodifiable 2+.

This is the proposed rules section. I think that if we're giving people a 1+ BS or WS, we can fix that too.

Has anyone tried playtesting some of the proposed fixes and seeing what happens?
Not just for terminators but for marines as a whole, play a bunch of games against a buddy with a competetive list, either with increased SM stats or with reduced points costs. I'm sure we'd all be interested in the outcome.

This is the proposed rules section. I think that if we're giving people a 1+ BS or WS, we can fix that too.

Psht, we all know all proposed changes must be taken in a vacuum and can't go along with any other changes. Duh!

 RobS wrote:
Has anyone tried playtesting some of the proposed fixes and seeing what happens?
Not just for terminators but for marines as a whole, play a bunch of games against a buddy with a competetive list, either with increased SM stats or with reduced points costs. I'm sure we'd all be interested in the outcome.

I've field-tested the "Primaris statlines for everyone" fix a few times and it just ends up being a giant middle finger to small arms; FRF/SRF and Fireblades exist right now because basic small arms with no AP are so incredibly pointless they need free* (*built into the minimum cost of fielding a detachment) bonus shots to be fielded. It takes something like eighty lasgun shots to kill a Primaris Marine in cover; so you get scary-ass Space Marines, yes, but you also create an environment that frustrates everyone else because they need to spam plasma to participate in the game and the size creep just keeps getting worse.

It feels like Space Marines as they currently exist in the lore aren't fundamentally compatible with how 8e is written; they could be way more expensive than chaff in older editions because vehicles were smaller/rarer/easier to kill quickly so the infantry v. infantry game (in which the Marine statline is always stronger) was a lot more important, and because the morale rules let a few Space Marines wipe big squads by running them off the table. These days with model/gun size creep and rules written around killing things rather than impeding them I don't think you can really do "Space Marines" properly.

not sure that's a bad thing tho….as it might actually make IG take a special weapons here or there instead of cheapest possible....or just erase the Marines with tanks and artillery as IG have more than enough of those anyway as well as the bodies to make the block line.

Also you used a worst case small arms exchange....throw in eldar or Tau and the marines arent near as survivable vs their small arms fire even with 2 wounds.

In fact I would say you used the weakest small arms fire represtentation in the game to come up with that ratio. Dark eldar and other marines or most other armies will get better kill ratios with their standard weapon load outs.

It feels like Space Marines as they currently exist in the lore aren't fundamentally compatible with how 8e is written; they could be way more expensive than chaff in older editions because vehicles were smaller/rarer/easier to kill quickly so the infantry v. infantry game (in which the Marine statline is always stronger) was a lot more important, and because the morale rules let a few Space Marines wipe big squads by running them off the table. These days with model/gun size creep and rules written around killing things rather than impeding them I don't think you can really do "Space Marines" properly.

It’s funny that it’s exactly true that eighth edition doesn’t work for marines but GW made Epic where marines do work. They work because you can’t spam anti-tank guns at infantry, anti tank guns don’t work well against them, and because when you shoot at infantry they can shoot back, and marines are pretty good at it.

Marines could sweeping advance to kill enemies. It would make sense if you could do a sweeping advance in the shooting phase, and if Terminators were really good at it. A terminator squad and an IG squad exchange fire. The guard can’t make the terminators duck, so the terminators are able to win combat which lets them really punish the guard.

Aren't some of those true today:
-"You can’t spam anti-tank guns at infantry," Lascannons/Brightlances aren't cost effective at killing Marines
-"anti tank guns don’t work well against them" Kinda a restatement of the first - you only kill 1 Marine per gun, at best

Isn't another big problem Marines have that anti-Marine guns are too effective at killing Tanks, so some people take them for that?

The biggest problem is that a marine just doesn't add up to 13 points of value, and intercessors don't add up to 17 and scouts don't add up to 11. There are multiple reasons for this, not always the same for each unit. Not just lethality. Many reasons. That's why these threads never agree on a problem, because there are MANY.

As with everything in 8th, making them cheaper is the way to make them more worthwhile. Lower cost fixes all in 8th. You bleed points slower, have more table coverage, and have more guns. Wonky rules have unpredictable effects. Getting cheaper has very predictable effects.

GW might be consciously soft squatting several marine lines, however. That is also a non-zero possibility.