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 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
most trek fans see STD as a bad show.

But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?

Bit of both to be fair, STD is not a very good show in general and not a very good Star Trek show either as it completely deviates from the ensemble style of the past to focus on one very unlikable character, in the past we could have an unlikable character but lots of others to like, its the risk of having a single protagonist.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
most trek fans see STD as a bad show.

But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?

IMO it's both. If it didn't make the conscious choice to inject one sided and very biased current real world politics into the script and itself do the exact same things that it professes to be against then it would just be bad trek overall because of the Mary Sue lead character, frequent bad scripts, and lack of defining characteristics that make Trek historically different from other scifi shows. At least they're getting their $4-7 million per episode money's worth on the effects FWIW; it's definitely a visually pretty mess.

 Formosa wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
GOOD NEWS EVERYONE (professor voice)

Alex Kurtman has been fired from Star trek allegedly due to bad pre screenings of Picard.

And the chief architect of Bad trek JJ abrahms is gone too, bad reboot are leaving with him and thus so are secret hideout in all likely hood, the best Star Trek news in a long time.

Considering he literally posted updates to all the shows they have planed 1 hour ago, I find this claim to be highly suspect.

which one dude?

Kurtzman, there were several interview articles that went up the other day where he talks about what is coming. Doesn't seem like something that would be happening if he were to be let go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
most trek fans see STD as a bad show.

But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?

IMO it's both. If it didn't make the conscious choice to inject one sided and very biased current real world politics into the script and itself do the exact same things that it professes to be against then it would just be bad trek overall because of the Mary Sue lead character, frequent bad scripts, and lack of defining characteristics that make Trek historically different from other scifi shows. At least they're getting their $4-7 million per episode money's worth on the effects FWIW; it's definitely a visually pretty mess.

Subtlety. The Reason old trek did such a good job with social issues is because they veiled the discussion in alien cultures, often flipping the entire argument to show how silly some of them can be. (Remember the TNG episode with the genderless people? That was in 1991, well before all the modern discussions about trans issues became a thing in the larger public space.) DIS unfortunately just smashes you in the face with the topic, in a heavy handed and authoritative way.

IIRC the original plan for that episode was for the genderless alien Riker was romancing be played by a man, but the network wouldn't agree.

TNG wasn't always that subtle, though. Or successful.

Yeah, their episode dealing with the sexuality of Scottish ghosts was like a brick to the face.

STOS did it first and best

*Let This Be Your Last Battlefield.
*Just having Uhura have authority.
*Asian people without glasses or accents!
*Well they did have a drunk Irishman and a Scot who loved Scotch.

 Formosa wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
most trek fans see STD as a bad show.

But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?

Bit of both to be fair, STD is not a very good show in general and not a very good Star Trek show either as it completely deviates from the ensemble style of the past to focus on one very unlikable character, in the past we could have an unlikable character but lots of others to like, its the risk of having a single protagonist.

I kind of agree that Disco isn’t particularly Star Trek. I mean, Season 2 had distinctly Trek episodes, and they were welcome. I just want more consistent Trek feel.

But I don’t agree at all that it’s not a very good show. The plots are decent, the effects amazing. Actors are fine and dandy. Yes, the script needs some work, and I very much agree we need less of a focus on Burnham.

Me? I’ve high hopes for Season 3. The end of Season 2 took us out of the past, and into the future. And I expect some of the events of Picard to reflect in the story. With it being largely untethered from canonical events (always a sod with prequels) I’m hoping we’ll see more creativity in the plots.

Having binge watched the Expanse - STD is just painful when you look at the character of Chrisjen Avasarala

A powerful but flawed older asian woman who manages to be a vital part of the show without every chracter worshipping the ground they walk on.

https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Chrisjen_Avasarala_(TV)

Still haven't watched STD (no interest in another streaming service) but I really liked the redesign of the Enterprise. I even got the Eaglemoss XL model of it.

It is pretty nice. I did like JJ Abrams film redesign, but it did feel a bit too much like an apple product, which just produced this sort of odd sensation whenever I looked at it.

That one looks like a modernized version of the original design, which was never quite my cup of tea, but Federation Aesthetic is like root beer.

The Enterprise is pretty much the only design from STD that I do like and that version in the calendar/prototype pic is my favorite. It's too bad they didn't keep it in TOS style grey instead of switching it over to the metallic aztec of the DISCOverse.

but Federation Aesthetic is like root beer.

it so is, I like the romulan designs myself.

I haven't seen much of Discovery, but I like all the ship designs...as mid-2340's or 2380's designs. Like ST Enterprise, the designs all feel way too "modern" for a prequel show.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Having binge watched the Expanse - STD is just painful when you look at the character of Chrisjen Avasarala

A powerful but flawed older asian woman who manages to be a vital part of the show without every chracter worshipping the ground they walk on.

https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Chrisjen_Avasarala_(TV)

Avasarala is an astounding character, and the Expanse is probably the best scifi show currently running.

I was able to get through STD by basically turning my brain off and equating it more with TOS than other shows, so it didn't offend me much, but I will totally concur that nothing in that show can match Avasarala.

That’s a nice Enterprise, but not as good as the one from the first six films.

It's also just as unnecessary as all the other redesigns, but unlike the Movieprise and JJprise is attempting to replace the original classic design, which makes it inherently garbage as far as I'm concerned. It could be the best Star Trek ship ever made(it isn't of course) and that would still be true. Which is half the problem with STD really - it's an attempt by the Abrams-era team to "lay claim" to Trek's history and remake it in their image, without even the fig leaf of "it's an alternate timeline/reality".

Here's how you update the TOS aesthetic for modernity - let some of the women officers wear trousers & tunic instead of miniskirt & leggings. Make the phaser noise marginally less ear-piercing. Done.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Here's how you update the TOS aesthetic for modernity - let some of the women officers wear trousers & tunic instead of miniskirt & leggings. Make the phaser noise marginally less ear-piercing. Done.

I agree with the clothing changes and, in my imaginary I won the lottery scenario where I produce trek fan films, I'd make that change as well. It doesn't take that much to change the DISCO designs into something that at least could fit in with a modernized version of TOS; it just takes effort and a heartfelt desire to still be inspired by/reminiscent of the original while still updating. This guy (MadKoiFish) does it on his own as a hobby....

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2942&page=56

Wasn;t STD tied in using their directors own super special space ship designs - esp for the Klingons which is why they look so out of place?

The Enterprise however looks good in all images so far in the thread

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wasn;t STD tied in using their directors own super special space ship designs - esp for the Klingons which is why they look so out of place?

The design of Discovery itself isn't original to STD. It's based on a early concept art for a a Federation ship when Roddenberry and crew were looking at making a sequel to TOS. You can see in the design's flattened and wide frame how they transitioned from the look of TOS to the look of TNG. The original concept art got scrapped but the producers of STD revived it for the series and that design became Discovery.

I think the Klingon's look different because someone wanted to show off. They noticeably started dialing it back on the ships (reverting to more classic Klingon look, but with spiky bits) before season 1 even ended. Still looked like gak though. The Ship of the Dead literally looks like someone took the Hirogen battlecruisers from Voyager, made them rounder, and added lots of spikes, while the interior feels lifted out of Nah'kul bridges in STO to me. Either way, none of it felt Klingon. Probably the series biggest overral mistake (after Mary Sue Michael). Nothing about Klingon's needed such a radical redesign. If they really wanted to modernize the look, they could have just used the Into Darkness design, which at least still looked Klingon.

 warboss wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Here's how you update the TOS aesthetic for modernity - let some of the women officers wear trousers & tunic instead of miniskirt & leggings. Make the phaser noise marginally less ear-piercing. Done.

I agree with the clothing changes and, in my imaginary I won the lottery scenario where I produce trek fan films, I'd make that change as well. It doesn't take that much to change the DISCO designs into something that at least could fit in with a modernized version of TOS; it just takes effort and a heartfelt desire to still be inspired by/reminiscent of the original while still updating. This guy (MadKoiFish) does it on his own as a hobby....

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2942&page=56

-imgsnip-

Eh, I'm in the camp of redesigns not being necessary at all, certainly not for a supposed prequel.

You can get away with redesigning stuff for a full reboot/sequel like BSG, but if you're going to use an existing setting and time period with an established aesthetic, you should be adhering to that aesthetic not trying to twist it to conform to modern trends.

That 60's sci-fi style might not be to everyone's taste these days, but that doesn't mean it needs to be replaced, and changing it doesn't mean it's better, merely different.

The Defiant set looked great in the Enterprise mirror episode IMO, shows it's entirely possible to film a modern HD show on a faithful version of the bridge set without having to make everything glossy and dark and plastered with lights. And there's any number of fantastic renditions of TOS-era ships that are fully faithful to the original aesthetic - the covers for the Vanguard and Seekers novel series' for example - that demonstrate the ship designs still stand on their own without the need for all the extra raised paneling and greebling and altered hull curvatures that "reimaginings" like the STD connie end up plastered with, all the originals need is a basic "HD" version and modern rendering/lighting.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Yeah, their episode dealing with the sexuality of Scottish ghosts was like a brick to the face.

It's hard to read this without laughing.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wasn;t STD tied in using their directors own super special space ship designs - esp for the Klingons which is why they look so out of place?

The design of Discovery itself isn't original to STD. It's based on a early concept art for a a Federation ship when Roddenberry and crew were looking at making a sequel to TOS. You can see in the design's flattened and wide frame how they transitioned from the look of TOS to the look of TNG. The original concept art got scrapped but the producers of STD revived it for the series and that design became Discovery.

I'm guessing we are referring to the Star Trek Phase 2 stuff from the late 70's?



I'm fine with the Enterprise design from STD as it incorporates elements of both the original series ship and the refit from the first series of movies. Of course I am just looking at it from a design standpoint with little interest in the show and not as a gatekeeper of the purity of the religious movement. Futurama told us the holy wars are coming.

Ah yes, the old "anyone who disagrees with me is a fanatic, and anyone who doesn't see the point in 'updating' something to pander to the ego of a modern artist is 'gatekeeping'" thing. Wonderful.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Ah yes, the old "anyone who disagrees with me is a fanatic, and anyone who doesn't see the point in 'updating' something to pander to the ego of a modern artist is 'gatekeeping'" thing. Wonderful.

No need to be petulant and angry as it won't change the future; the Star Trek vs. Star Wars Wars are still forertold.

 Ahtman wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wasn;t STD tied in using their directors own super special space ship designs - esp for the Klingons which is why they look so out of place?

The design of Discovery itself isn't original to STD. It's based on a early concept art for a a Federation ship when Roddenberry and crew were looking at making a sequel to TOS. You can see in the design's flattened and wide frame how they transitioned from the look of TOS to the look of TNG. The original concept art got scrapped but the producers of STD revived it for the series and that design became Discovery.

I'm guessing we are referring to the Star Trek Phase 2 stuff from the late 70's?



I'm fine with the Enterprise design from STD as it incorporates elements of both the original series ship and the refit from the first series of movies. Of course I am just looking at it from a design standpoint with little interest in the show and not as a gatekeeper of the purity of the religious movement. Futurama told us the holy wars are coming.

whats your view on the Kilingons?

I just think they would have been fine if they had been a whole other race - which would have made little or no difference to the story.

No issues with the various Enterprise and Dicsovery was ok as experimental ship

 Ahtman wrote:


I'm guessing we are referring to the Star Trek Phase 2 stuff from the late 70's?

You know I was going to ask if that was a McQuarrie but I see by the jpg name that it is. So reminiscent of Star Destroyer concept art.

Anyway. I didn't watch Discovery so I can't really agree/disagree here, but I empathise with their position.

God, every time I see a clip of an STD battle scene it still surprises me how rubbish their pewpewlazor sound effects are for weapons fire.

 Mr Morden wrote:
whats your view on the Kilingons?

I think they started out as an interesting foil for the Federation but over time they were weakened a bit by some of the choices made. The major points being that Paramount wanted to save money on sets and costumes so they changed the antagonists of Star Trek III: The Search for Spock from Romulans to Klingons since they still had the sets and costumes from ST: The Motion Picture. This meant the previously honorable warrior society suddenly became sneaky cloak using gits as well as necessitating a retcon to explain the change in attitude/culture. The other would be the Worf Effect.

The one species I think they should have done more with were the Gorn. Star Fleet Command had them as an ally of the Federation but that isn't cannon and as far as I know they were not used in any of the shows or movies beyond the single episode of TOS where Starfleet and the Gorn have their first run in. They had a lot of potential being big scary reptilian humanoids that were intelligent.

 Ahtman wrote:


The one species I think they should have done more with were the Gorn. Star Fleet Command had them as an ally of the Federation but that isn't cannon and as far as I know they were not used in any of the shows or movies beyond the single episode of TOS where Starfleet and the Gorn have their first run in. They had a lot of potential being big scary reptilian humanoids that were intelligent.

A Gorn got a Cameo appearance in ENT Mirror Universe two parter, but it wasn't even a one scene wonder. More like a one frame "oh look I remember that!"

Of course, this goes to one of my biggest grips with ST fandom. The need to explode the significance of things so monumentally unimportant they only warranted a bit part in a crisis of the week episode, never to be seen again. It's amazing how much of TOS that people consider to be absolutely sacred amounts to one offs.

I'm not sure that sacred always works to describe it, but certainly does in some cases, still it is interesting to see out of all the storylines that were raised in the series what ended up being pursued and what was ignored. I know part of my nostalgia for the Gorn is that Star Fleet Command used them a lot more so having them essentially ignored is disappointing. Somehow I'll get over it though and move on.

They did that in TNG as well. I remember one where they blew up a guys head that had been taken over by some weird parasites, after finding out that the creatures had infiltrated Starfleet, and afterwards it was noted that they had sent a signal out and that something was on its way. As far as I know they never followed up that.

As for the Klingons I forgot about the JJ Abrams ones, which honestly could have been any alien race but went with Klingons as people have heard the name but nothing really stood out. As for them in STD no idea as I've never watched it I just liked the Enterprise design.