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Please, just don't bring Burnham into it...

Have watched both episodes and they are okay, nothing really great (bar Stewart's acting) and not anything really terrible. It does make me wonder how the law passed in "The Measure of a Man" became in the future an entire race of disposable people, wonder if it will come up.

It's best not to dwell on it; the writers obviously didn't.

I have to say that it seems like I'm in the minority in not liking Picard unlike with Disco where it felt like a pretty even split in the fandom. Youtubers that I respect (but don't always agree with) seem to like it or at least think it's ok. I don't hate it but rather it's more just a moderate dislike mixed with an apathy borne of severe disappointment with Disco season 1. I think I've finally accepted that Star Trek just isn't for me anymore and likely never will be.

Yeah. I feel the same. The new movies aren’t Star Trek to me. The Picard show is not Star Trek to me. I don’t enjoy what Star Trek is today.

The good news is I’ve got the post-Nemesis novel verse for my Star Trek fix; the bad news is there will be no more entries in that continuity ever again once the last contracted Breyer Voyager book comes out.

I actually just started reading my first trek novel in 20+ years two days ago as well. In my case it is a TOS novel although not by choice as it was literally the only one in the book store clearance bin.

Let me know if you need some reading material. We are Kondoing the house, which means giving away a large portion of my book horde, including some Star Trek and Black Library novels. I’d prefer to send them to someone who will read them rather than just donate them all to the library and hope they find good homes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, which book?

 ingtaer wrote:
Please, just don't bring Burnham into it...

Have watched both episodes and they are okay, nothing really great (bar Stewart's acting) and not anything really terrible. It does make me wonder how the law passed in "The Measure of a Man" became in the future an entire race of disposable people, wonder if it will come up.

my guess is the synths used on Mars where more primative then Data. Datawas ruled to be an individual because he was clearly intelligent, self aware etc. Data for example would easily pass the Turing test. in fact the only reason he WOULDN'T is because it'd fast become clear he was TOO smart. from what we saw of the Synths, however, they weren't partiuclarly clever and likely would have failed the Turing test. seeming to be, at best, as smart as a mentally handi-capped child.

this.. actually makes some sense, the road block to building more Data's was his brain. but you don't nesscarily NEED a highly advanced brain for some roles. without his advanced brain you still have an exceptionally strong, and an exceptionally durable, human shaped object. perfect for a labourer, partiuclarly in adverse conditions.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
Please, just don't bring Burnham into it...

Have watched both episodes and they are okay, nothing really great (bar Stewart's acting) and not anything really terrible. It does make me wonder how the law passed in "The Measure of a Man" became in the future an entire race of disposable people, wonder if it will come up.

my guess is the synths used on Mars where more primative then Data. Datawas ruled to be an individual because he was clearly intelligent, self aware etc. Data for example would easily pass the Turing test. in fact the only reason he WOULDN'T is because it'd fast become clear he was TOO smart. from what we saw of the Synths, however, they weren't partiuclarly clever and likely would have failed the Turing test. seeming to be, at best, as smart as a mentally handi-capped child.

this.. actually makes some sense, the road block to building more Data's was his brain. but you don't nesscarily NEED a highly advanced brain for some roles. without his advanced brain you still have an exceptionally strong, and an exceptionally durable, human shaped object. perfect for a labourer, partiuclarly in adverse conditions.

That's a good argument, I guess a large part of it would be whether the ruling made was specific to Data or to Androids in general, I am sure it must have come up further when Data built his daughter but I cant remember the specifics of that episode (gonna have to watch it this evening). If, indeed, intelligence was the defining trait the ramifications of that would have been pretty immense.

 ingtaer wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
Please, just don't bring Burnham into it...

Have watched both episodes and they are okay, nothing really great (bar Stewart's acting) and not anything really terrible. It does make me wonder how the law passed in "The Measure of a Man" became in the future an entire race of disposable people, wonder if it will come up.

my guess is the synths used on Mars where more primative then Data. Datawas ruled to be an individual because he was clearly intelligent, self aware etc. Data for example would easily pass the Turing test. in fact the only reason he WOULDN'T is because it'd fast become clear he was TOO smart. from what we saw of the Synths, however, they weren't partiuclarly clever and likely would have failed the Turing test. seeming to be, at best, as smart as a mentally handi-capped child.

this.. actually makes some sense, the road block to building more Data's was his brain. but you don't nesscarily NEED a highly advanced brain for some roles. without his advanced brain you still have an exceptionally strong, and an exceptionally durable, human shaped object. perfect for a labourer, partiuclarly in adverse conditions.

That's a good argument, I guess a large part of it would be whether the ruling made was specific to Data or to Androids in general, I am sure it must have come up further when Data built his daughter but I cant remember the specifics of that episode (gonna have to watch it this evening). If, indeed, intelligence was the defining trait the ramifications of that would have been pretty immense.

the entire argument for Data's freedoms (as seen in the TNG episode "the measure of a man") is that he is sentient and to deny a sentient, even AI, rights, would be a form of slavery. So sentience is defiantly at play here. If the androids currently in use (and I suspect their being called "synths" instead of androids was a deliberate attempt to seperate them from Data in the minds of people) where basicly no smarter then a dog, or a child, then yeah they can proably avoid it

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Let me know if you need some reading material. We are Kondoing the house, which means giving away a large portion of my book horde, including some Star Trek and Black Library novels. I’d prefer to send them to someone who will read them rather than just donate them all to the library and hope they find good homes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, which book?

That's a very generous offer. PM incoming. It's "The Shocks of Adversity". The preview on the back sounded interesting and my choices were limited regardless.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Shocks_of_Adversity

 warboss wrote:
It's best not to dwell on it; the writers obviously didn't.

I have to say that it seems like I'm in the minority in not liking Picard unlike with Disco where it felt like a pretty even split in the fandom. Youtubers that I respect (but don't always agree with) seem to like it or at least think it's ok. I don't hate it but rather it's more just a moderate dislike mixed with an apathy borne of severe disappointment with Disco season 1. I think I've finally accepted that Star Trek just isn't for me anymore and likely never will be.

Well just as likely to change again

Discovery and Picard seem very different (so far) in pacing and style, yeah they both have let the cast swear but thats just a gimick..... so far for me Picard could have been a DS9 epsiode (except or swearing) in terms of content.

As I mentioned before there are a few odd choices but nice to see Orla Brady again (she was great in Into the Badlands)

I am hopefuly but I was Disco season 2 and that turned out so very bad.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 warboss wrote:
It's best not to dwell on it; the writers obviously didn't.

I have to say that it seems like I'm in the minority in not liking Picard unlike with Disco where it felt like a pretty even split in the fandom. Youtubers that I respect (but don't always agree with) seem to like it or at least think it's ok. I don't hate it but rather it's more just a moderate dislike mixed with an apathy borne of severe disappointment with Disco season 1. I think I've finally accepted that Star Trek just isn't for me anymore and likely never will be.

Well just as likely to change again

Discovery and Picard seem very different (so far) in pacing and style, yeah they both have let the cast swear but thats just a gimick..... so far for me Picard could have been a DS9 epsiode (except or swearing) in terms of content.

As I mentioned before there are a few odd choices but nice to see Orla Brady again (she was great in Into the Badlands)

I am hopefuly but I was Disco season 2 and that turned out so very bad.

yeah Agreed. Picard feels like DS9, in that they're willing to show an imperfect Federation, but they still are giving us a show that feels like the trek we grew up with

For me, the most important thing is that so far, it feels like a logical progression for Picard as the main character.

There's been nothing in the first two episodes that've had a 'huh' from me, in terms of his reactions and actions. Everything just feels right, despite 20+ years of unknown.

Long may that continue.

Agreed! Whilst its a change its more an evolution of what we knew and loved rather than a total change over. I think that Patrick Steward is likely helping ensure that. I've seen a few interviews with him over the years and one thing that keeps coming through is that he always wanted his acting to "mean something."

In fact he stays that early on Startek wasn't something he wanted it to do as it wasn't going to mean anything. It wasn't changing lives and it wasn't like he was preserving part of history and culture like with his Shakespearean acting.

However as TNG and Startrek in general gained momentum and impact I think it did start to affect lives and I think he's found its value. That puts a lot of passion into him as an actor. I think its why we are getting such a well placed script that isn't re-inventing the wheel and is instead taking what we had and building upon it with a natural progression.

You can clearly see Sir Patrick’s influence as the show rolled on. And as the rest of the cast are on record saying, his professionalism and ability helped push them to improve.

I mean, consider the first season. Then, say, Chain of Command. And how Picard simply gets more and more short with Q, whilst growing as a Captain (softening on the family side of The Enterprise).

Throughout those seven seasons, his growth is remarkably organic. Nothing seemed false or forced. And for me, Peak Picard (Peakard?) comes in this frankly astounding scene from First Contact.




His rage is so very unlike the fairly calm and collected Captain we’ve known. And yet, it works, beautifully. Just every single bit of it. Especially as it continues the Trek Movie ‘loose literary reference’ tradition.

And we see clear callbacks to that in the first episode with his interview.

As fantastically talented as Sir Patrick is, coming back to a role 20 odd years later, and seeming like you never left is no small task. Hats off to the writers and producers for clearly respecting all that came before.

Sure, it’s still early days, and maybe we’ll see things slip. But I personally doubt it.

Well now I’m really wondering how they draw a distinction between sentient AI and the EMH.

 AduroT wrote:
Well now I’m really wondering how they draw a distinction between sentient AI and the EMH.

Holograms are just a body form limited by needing emitters to function. In a practical sense this limits them to specific areas of a ship, typically the holodeck, but also the Doctor in Voyager as an emergency program. All of them are technically a form of AI, however they become true living AI only by accident. TNG had Moriarti; DS9 had someone running a bar and Voyager had the Dr. His key difference being that unlike the others (bound to a holodeck and often a specific program within it); he was bound to the medical deck until he got his future-tech patch that allowed him to roam freely.

Like Data they are accidents in so much as they weren't meant to be alive but are. I think also that most of them don't tend to have a supremely high level of self awareness or improvement, they just sort of are as they are, but are also self aware enough to count as alive. The Dr on Voyager took it to the next level in self improvement and change; which I think sets him apart from many of the others. There might also be other subtle limitations in how they can adapt and evolve. Data likely had a greater range of potential; however even he still had limits such as emotions (until we got the emotion chip).

In the end the ST world clearly has a means to separate an AI like the ships computer, which has a vast wealth of information and duties; and a "true living" AI like Data from each other.

The 'AI rights' episode of voyagers had all the repurposed EMHs given 'personhood.' So the Doctor wasn't a strange or rare example, he was the default- all of them had the capacity to grow if given the opportunity.
And since they were switched from emergency holograms to full work crews for hazardous conditions, they'd garner the run time to develop that way. Something the testing never picked up since they were designed to run for maybe 100 hours over the lifetime of a ship (only in emergencies when a star fleet doctor wasn't available or needed help).

That ability to develop is presumably why the Federation gave them rights rather than just press the delete key.

---
Functionally, there isn't any reason a ST ship's computer couldn't develop full sapience, unless it was intentionally lobotomized by its programming so it couldn't. But that sounds annoying to deal with, so they never did it on the show.

And what of self-aware machines like the nanites and exocomps? Are they all going into the camps?

There seems to be a major disconnect around what the Federation acknowledged as life and the personhood of synthetic life as encountered in previous Trek series, and this new show, that appears to be dramatically understated.

The Federation recognized Data, the EMH, and even sapient silicon sand as protected sentient life. Doing a 180 on that as casually and as decisively as the show is making it out is hard to take.

That said, the show is still entertaining, albeit painfully cliche. The motorcycle helmeted bad guys however need to go. That kinda worked in the 90's, now it just looks stupid and immersion breaking. Whoever made that particular wardrobe choice should feel bad.

It is interesting to note how...realistic the responses to Picard are for a lot of this. In TNG everyone would have hopped to do as Picard asked, or he'd have had the opportunity to convince them through elegant argumentation. Now, he's getting called on his bs (or getting other people's bs projected on him in some cases) like real people actually would, even if he's still basically getting his way.

One thing that IS worth noting. The Admiral that DID call Picard on his behaviour and threw him out of her office.

Then immediately went off to investigate exactly what he said. - But was then outmaneuvered by Not-So-Secretly-Evil-Boss.

And I think it's kind of that that helps assuage my concerns about the show. - Not-So-Secretly-Evil-Bosses are a staple of Star Trek, so I'm fine with that.

So it sort of helps avoid my worry of the show that that it's the Federation is turned into a Strawman Bad Political Entity.

I'm kind of assuming the synth ban only applies to deliberately created entities, with things like the Exocomp which 'evolved' being excluded.

I'm wondering what authority...

No, what we're seeing is simply the federation as a HUMAN political entity. the romulan evacuation was straining starfleet resources, so I can well imagine sentiment wasn't entirely sold on it. Imagine if you needed a federation starship to show up to your world to address a problem and you're told "gonna have to just deal with those earth quakes for the next two years because we're devoting almost all our resources to saving the romulans.you know the guys who less then a decade before had attempted a genocidal attack on earth? Sure WE know Shinzon was a special case and wasn't just the romulans, but do the people of the federation know? I mean if we use the Picard count down comics, even while Picard was trying to save lives by evacuating romulan worlds, some romulans where attempting to screw him over.

Episode 3 and am I the only one who had this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxUbgEHP2Qg

in mind when we had a ships crew forming up with one smoking. Granted it might have needed Number One to come along for the ride to get the full effect


I liked this episode, it built perfectly on from the previous one and set things up. Episodes 2 and 3 blend together really well and could have been done as one super-long episode, but wouldn't have worked well being squished into one. As much as we want to get into space, I think if they'd squished them into one we'd have lost out on so much subtle backstory and had a very rushed experience.

Going slower let each scene develop for itself at its own pace. Now we've got a very conveniently placed cybernetics Dr. on the team; we've got a whole new layer of potential confusion relating to the synths as well and a new layer of relation between the Romulans and the Cube. We've even got Hugh appearing once again!

We also got a short display of who this new woman in Picards life is. An important element to establish early on since he was going to her and not any of his other original crew. I think its a good reminder on how when he was working at Starfleet he didn't stop being himself. We sort of got a feeling with Kirk that he never stopped being a Captain. He seemed to not make new connections when he stepped down from the Enterprise. Meanwhile we see that Picard is very different and he's continued to build quite a large roster of new allies and friends in his new position. In many ways he's dealt with his friends and co-workers moving on better than Kirk did.

I've not seen the episode yet, but that always seemed like it was Kirk. He only ever felt alive on the bridge of the Enterprise. And everyone knew it. Even his enemies knew it.

I suspect in part because Kirk's Enterprise went further out and dealt a lot more with the fringes. One got the feeling that Picard was dancing on the boundaries of the federation, but communications and missions within the interior were far more common for him. Meanwhile Kirk was a full explorer and often far more isolated with just his ship and crew.

It's also worth noting that Enterprise was, as far as we know, Kirk's first command, Picard meanwhile ahd had stargazer.

I quite liked the way that the funny-leaf vaping woman was living in the shadow of the place where Bill and Ted were thrown off the cliff by the evil robot Bill and Ted - that's your android rebellion right there.

Also the location of the Star Trek cosplay photoshoot in the Big Bang Theory.

Think it was used in another TV series decades ago, but I couldn't for the life of me remember what it was called.

Also, calling it now. Android doctor lady is working for Romulan/Vulcan Starfleet woman in shades.

Vazquez Rocks. Off the 14. It’s an impressive park.

 Chillreaper wrote:
I
Think it was used in another TV series decades ago, but I couldn't for the life of me remember what it was called.

isnt it where Kirk and that Gorn had a set to ?

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Chillreaper wrote:
I
Think it was used in another TV series decades ago, but I couldn't for the life of me remember what it was called.

isnt it where Kirk and that Gorn had a set to ?

Yep, the episode was The Arena. Complete with slo-mo space Kung Fu and a random Macgyvered diamond cannon.

I just thought that having a classic original ST episode reference might be a bit too obvious for the show, but obviously, the producers thought otherwise.