Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I’d be surprised if we see too much more of it. It was clearly unintentional bringing them in the first time, so I doubt they’d go back and do it again. We’re supposed to be developing the Gorn war more this season I think.

The important thing here?

Trek feels like Trek once more.

I’ve enjoyed Disco and Picard to differing degrees. But SNW is absolutely tickling that classic pickle in the right way.

Finally, a Star Trek episode about time travel!


I enjoyed it for the most part and it was nice to see them show Kirk as not just a charismatic fool who gets lucky following his gut. In TOS he was one of the few people to constantly beat Spock at chess so it was a nice call back to that bit of character.

I wasn’t the biggest fan of this episode. It was ok and all, but I’m just not a fan of the guy playing Kirk. He looks like a young gurning Jim Carrey and I think the whole episode would have been a lot more fun if Pike rather than Kirk was on the adventure. I understand Anson Mount’s limited availability, but they should have used another main cast member rather than Kirk. It mostly seemed the reason to use Kirk was just

The story was quite good, but I’m a bit confused by the Star Trek timeline nowadays. Well ever since reality caught up with the Star Trek time line.

Is the timeline for Strange New Worlds supposed to be in the same timeline as TOS, in which case, did the eugenics wars happen in the the 90s or not?

 Overread wrote:
It's not even lack of competition, there's also a stark element of market over-saturation. People don't want to spend a fortune each month to grab the handful of shows they want to keep up with because they are spread over 5 different services.

It's the same problem as ever: new technology opens up a totally untapped market, but that market is naturally monopolistic due to the underlying technology (i.e. the most efficient use of the infrastructure is probably one service providing everything instead of people maintaining half a dozen subscriptions concurrently) and cost-degression effects. So it's a mad dash and scramble among competitors - the service to grab the most market share will probably crowd out everyone else and at that point be able to collect monopolistic rents, which is very attractive, so the big ones compete on a basis of who can soak the losses the longest to offer artificially cheapened deals to attract people. We are now entering the phase where even the biggest players can't justify offering loss-leaders any more and are crying uncle.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's not even lack of competition, there's also a stark element of market over-saturation. People don't want to spend a fortune each month to grab the handful of shows they want to keep up with because they are spread over 5 different services.

It's the same problem as ever: new technology opens up a totally untapped market, but that market is naturally monopolistic due to the underlying technology (i.e. the most efficient use of the infrastructure is probably one service providing everything instead of people maintaining half a dozen subscriptions concurrently) and cost-degression effects. So it's a mad dash and scramble among competitors - the service to grab the most market share will probably crowd out everyone else and at that point be able to collect monopolistic rents, which is very attractive, so the big ones compete on a basis of who can soak the losses the longest to offer artificially cheapened deals to attract people. We are now entering the phase where even the biggest players can't justify offering loss-leaders any more and are crying uncle.

Particularly in the U.K. where it includes Star, I think Disney+ has got it right.

Not only is it reasonably priced in the market, but Disney’s own stuff is up there with Big Ticket Properties bought up before the streaming service launched.

Star is a free sub-channel which is essentially Hulu’s Greatest Hits. And so we in the U.K. indisputably get a better range of content than the US and other territories lacking Star.

Paramount+ basically has…..Star Trek. Oh and for me, Beavis and Butthead. But that’s about it in terms of tentpole properties. And so it compares very poorly against D+.

And that I think is what’s going to cause other “plusies” to fail. They just cannot offer the same variety of content as Netflix, Prime and D+. And so they’ll always look to be poor value, even when their price is a mere few quid a month.

 AduroT wrote:
They reinvented cable.

Seeing how well that went anywhere outside the US... yeah, pull the other one, it has bells on it.

Aash wrote:
Is the timeline for Strange New Worlds supposed to be in the same timeline as TOS, in which case, did the eugenics wars happen in the the 90s or not?

I think the current idea is that it started small in the 90s in Europe & Africa, but didn't kick off 'globally' until the 2020s.

That was the explanation people came up with to explain why we weren't currently fighting the war even as the Dr. Bashir episode about it aired but it's always been the franchise kicking the can down the road another week.

Ironically, early TNG seemed to be going the opposite direction entirely, with multiple obviously human gattaca societies that the Federation flagship was more than willing to drop in and help out without comment.

WW3 is in the same boat for similar reasons. Ditto the Bell Riots which are scheduled to happen next year.

I HATE VOYAGER, BUT...

I will watch every Captain Proton episode.

Emperor Chaotica IS DA MAN!

And Constance Goodheart has got to be the ultimate weapon in the universe. Her voice could shatter neutronium.

 Captain Joystick wrote:


WW3 is in the same boat for similar reasons. Ditto the Bell Riots which are scheduled to happen next year.

To be fair, that last one is eerily not that far off from reality as income inequality continues to grow worse and the housing and homelessness crisis continue to escalate.

Who knows.

Next year may surprise us.

*opens book*

Taking all bets!

beast_gts wrote:

Aash wrote:
Is the timeline for Strange New Worlds supposed to be in the same timeline as TOS, in which case, did the eugenics wars happen in the the 90s or not?

I think the current idea is that it started small in the 90s in Europe & Africa, but didn't kick off 'globally' until the 2020s.

this was canon for a long time now, that the Eugenics Wars were an Asian thing and while being big wars with millions of dead, not really affecting the countries on other continents
(also seen as the explanation why there are not a majority of asian people in the future, as Spock said about the Eugenic Wars, whole peoples were bombed out of existence)

and there was never a source stating that it affected the USA at all but they had their own problems with the "working poor" that lead to riots and civil unrest
like even the Bell Riots from DS9 and the Picard season 2 can happen parallel to each other because the wider society does not care what happens in the ghetto

also, what the future sees as 1 war, can be several different wars at present
an example, we talk about Napoleonic Wars as 1 conflict while in the past this were independent conflicts seen by the participants, the 7 years war is often still split into a European War, an Asian War and a North-American War
same with WW2, which is seen as 1 big conflict in some parts, while others split it into several smaller wars
like we have now a war in Middle East, North Africa, Eastern Europe, a Warlord as participant (Wagner PMC is present in all 3 of them) and depending on the end in 100-200 years they will be called the "Wagner Wars", make Wagner being lead by genetic modified humans, add Afganistan and Taiwan and you have the Eugenic Wars

WW3 can be also just a small conflict that effects the whole world because it is a nuclear one, like the leftovers of Russia bomb the USA who does not make a full counter charge and you have WW3 but with only 2 countries involved that was over in 2 hours

Another thing to consider is that we generally don't sit in history class and we get the general impression of past events in Star Trek.


Even today with 500+ years of history if you mention something like the Romans, many people mentally lump the entire era into 1 concept. As if 500 years was just 1 generation period.
We have video games and films and stories and such about "the romans" which often only mention the age or such in reference to who was ruling or in passing. It's not information most people latch onto unless they study it.


So its fully possible for very long periods of Startrek's history to be long periods of time, but are often spoken about as if they were very short events. Perhaps just focusing on the concept of the final elements of those major events when the buildup toward them was much longer.

I think the best way to look at things is on the macro scale and IMO that's how the Temporal Integrity Commission does it.
When we see the Enterprise crew meeting Khan 2267, at that time what they know of the past is correct from their viewpoint. Later on, many different groups travel through time, and events in history are altered, such as Sisko becoming the face of the Bell Riots.
However, the major events of the Prime timeline still all happen. The Eugenics Wars kick off at some point leading to a ban on genetic manipulation in the Federation, WW3 occurs leading to the events of First Contact and the alliance between Humanity and the Vulcans. Whether these events happen in 1992 or the 2040s, the end result is still the same.
The Temporal Integrity Commission could send agents to fix every single minor anachronism in the timeline, or they could focus on making sure the important events happen the way they need to unfold. The latter is much easier to accomplish.

It’s also possible certain temporal whoopsie and fiddling are solidly part of the desired timeline.

I liked the new episode. I’m really enjoying Strange New Worlds and it’s the first Star Trek series I’ve really liked since ds9. Some of the others have been ok in parts, but this is almost halfway through season 2 and I don’t think there’s been a bad episode yet.

Aash wrote:
I liked the new episode. I’m really enjoying Strange New Worlds and it’s the first Star Trek series I’ve really liked since ds9. Some of the others have been ok in parts, but this is almost halfway through season 2 and I don’t think there’s been a bad episode yet.

DS9 really had some depth. Especially, imho, Constable Odo and a few of the villains like Dukat and Eddington. The Ferengi were great for comic relief.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also possible certain temporal whoopsie and fiddling are solidly part of the desired timeline.

Exactly this was pointed out within the episode itself. When the Khan assassin went on her rant before being taken out she specifically mentioned how she was stuck waiting 30 years to complete her mission, which was a clever nod towards the original 90s date given.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Aash wrote:
I liked the new episode. I’m really enjoying Strange New Worlds and it’s the first Star Trek series I’ve really liked since ds9. Some of the others have been ok in parts, but this is almost halfway through season 2 and I don’t think there’s been a bad episode yet.

DS9 really had some depth. Especially, imho, Constable Odo and a few of the villains like Dukat and Eddington. The Ferengi were great for comic relief.

I think the key to the comic relief of the Ferengi is that they weren't typecast to comic relief.
It was 100% there, but at the same time they also had a lot of serious moments. The social disparity and changes for hteir race; Rom joining Starfleet and growing up; Quark has a lot of very key and serious lines in the series and does a fantastic display of an established adult who wants to stick to what he grew up with, see huge amounts of change and steadily adapt and adjust his world views and attitudes.

I think thinking of them as comic relief is the wrong move, that's just one aspect of them and DS9 writer and actors just did a seriously good job of not playing into the trope so much that there was nothing else.

Quark in particular did a lot to redeem the Ferengi on the show.

Pointing out to Nog that strip away humanity’s creature comforts and we can quickly become worse than Klingons.

Throwing it in Sisko’s face that whilst the Federation frowns on Capitalism now, the Ferengi at least never indulged in Slavery etc.

His chat with Garak comparing the Federation to Root Beer.

In a way, they’re modern humans transplanted. A caricature yes, but easily the species closest to us for my money. A chance for the writer to hold up an only slightly fairground mirror to The Federation.

I think the other key is that the writers and actors on DS9 were keen to make characters not just tropes.

Which I think is also a lot easier when the writing is more structured on a non-weekly repeat system. Because when you've got episodes that are set to appear in a certain order you can more easily develop a character a little in each one. Allowing them to change and for them to show the change and also show more facets of them.


You also get the impression that many of the actors enjoyed their roles and put into them quite a lot of elements. Heck I believe the whole Root Beer chat was invented by the actors (it's either that one or another one with Quark and there might even be more than one).

I'd say its not just that they are "humans transplanted". It's more that they are characters allowed to be characters with many layers. Each episode we might peel a layer back and see another within; or see one change and evolve and soforth.

True.

As I’ve said many times before, DS9 did a staggering job of fleshing out races. Bajoran, Cardassian, Ferengi, Vorta, Klingon, Jem Hagar, Changelings. About the only semi-major race not really explored would be the Breen, and even then that worked because they were presented as mysterious.

I completely agree that was them making the best of a serialised story, over an episodic approach. And it worked beautifully. Just so much packed into its seven seasons.

On a personal preferences note, DS9 has the fewest episodes in its run I’d actively skip on a watch through. Mainly the time travel one where Tony Todd plays an elderly Jake Sisko. It’s just not my jam.

Armin Shimmerman specifically saw his role as Quark as a way to redeem the Ferengi as he partially blamed himself for getting them into that comedic role in the first place with his original Ferengi guest role on TNG.
The studio plan was to have the Ferengi replace the Klingons as the big bads of this given series but it never materialised and they went with the more comedic route.
His Shuttlepod Show episode is probably the best one I've listened to so far because he's not only an amazing actor but a lovely person.

 Overread wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Aash wrote:
I liked the new episode. I’m really enjoying Strange New Worlds and it’s the first Star Trek series I’ve really liked since ds9. Some of the others have been ok in parts, but this is almost halfway through season 2 and I don’t think there’s been a bad episode yet.

DS9 really had some depth. Especially, imho, Constable Odo and a few of the villains like Dukat and Eddington. The Ferengi were great for comic relief.

I think the key to the comic relief of the Ferengi is that they weren't typecast to comic relief.
It was 100% there, but at the same time they also had a lot of serious moments. The social disparity and changes for hteir race; Rom joining Starfleet and growing up; Quark has a lot of very key and serious lines in the series and does a fantastic display of an established adult who wants to stick to what he grew up with, see huge amounts of change and steadily adapt and adjust his world views and attitudes.

I think thinking of them as comic relief is the wrong move, that's just one aspect of them and DS9 writer and actors just did a seriously good job of not playing into the trope so much that there was nothing else.

Oh, I agree with you, there was a lot more to them than just that, such as Rom's bunt in "Take Me Out To the Holosuite", but it was the comic relief that made them fun. They weren't just loathsome, as in NextGen.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also possible certain temporal whoopsie and fiddling are solidly part of the desired timeline.

This is a big issue in the DTI book Watching the Clock: one of their best agents quite in fury when outside time agencies insist not only on leaving Janeway’s time shenanigans intact, but on refraining from punishing her for her temporal violations.


As Bill and Ted pointed out, only the winners can play the time game.

SNW S2 E5

Probably my favourite so far. And just as I was getting bored of Spock!

Spock is not allowed to have a normal visit with his fiancé.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
SNW S2 E3

Probably my favourite so far. And just as I was getting bored of Spock!

Episode 5 surely?

Quite right, I’ve edited.