Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I guess that’s oddly ironic.

See, for me part of the interest in TNG came from the meeting room scenes, where the senior command would discuss the problem faced, offer suggestions, and Worf would usually be told no.

That allowed different opinions and views to be aired. That to me is Very Federation, if not Definitively.

But recent Trek has shown how that actually works in the real world 😂

**LordofHats**

...

Dear god that is ironic.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Lathe Biosas wrote:
At least it wasn't the "Rogue Admiral" plotline.

Isn’t that what Section 31 basically is? The “superweapon” extreme of the Rogue Admiral?

**lord_blackfang**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Possibly a hot take, but for me the rot set in with Enterprise.

The opening was the only part I liked. It's out of whack with the classic style (but what about STD and Picard openings clearly made by some insufferable pretentious prick straight out of art academy and bent on making something "theirs"?) but it was the most representative of the soul of Trek.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Oh the opening credits made sense, visually. And I agree Picard and Disco should’ve stuck with the “will you just read the bloody map, we’ve been past that nebula six times” meanderings of the character ship.

But the music for Enteprise was bobbins.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:
At least it wasn't the "Rogue Admiral" plotline.

Isn’t that what Section 31 basically is? The “superweapon” extreme of the Rogue Admiral?

According to the film of the same name? They’re a bunch of incompetent, untrustworthy cretins.

**BanjoJohn**

Part of me is glad that people who have liked DISC, or PIK, or SNW, or Lower Decks, or Prodigy are finally like "what is this crap?" when it comes to section 31.

From my perspective, based on what I've heard of/seen of all of those shows, Section 31 is the inevitable conclusion of their sloppy/bad/irreverent writing and lack of love for TOS/TNG. Like for me, I knew I wouldn't like DISC as soon as I learned the MC was spocks step-sister, so bingo-bango they've already put it in an alternative timeline/universe from TOS/TNG. I have seen people argue "but spock didn't have a half brother until he did in the movie", to which I would say, that movie wasn't retro-active, it didn't change TOS with the addition of his brother, and the actor who helped write/develop the character of Spock took part in making that change to spock, DISC was written by people who hate spock and kirk, none of the original writers or creaters could even be involved in making the changes they did to Spock. So the changes they made were fan-fiction level at best, and considering it a seperate timeline/universe is frankly the most polite way to deal with or organize DISC.

SNW is offensive in its own way, taking many characters from TOS that shouldn't be on the enterprise and putting them there. Making changes to their personalty/character that don't make any sense and make them completely different from how they would be in TOS, again SNW is a show that is basically a different timeline/universe.

Then Picard, oh man, that show should have been aborted, its a pet project of Patric Stewart to completely tarnish his reputaiton and legacy as captain picard. He isn't even Picard after the point where his character becomes an android body that thinks it is Picard.

To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.

Phew, that was cathartic. I don't care if people like these shows, but they aren't star trek, they're just teen dramas dressed up like star trek. They're RC cola when you wanted Pepsi or Coke. They're Beetleborgs when you wanted Power Rangers. They're street sharks when you wanted ninja turtles. They're michael bay when you wanted JRR Tolkien.

For me, Section 31 is just another example of how bad the people in charge of trek have been handling the franchise. Other people may disagree with all the other shows being bad, but I'm at least glad people who like those shows are finally hating section 31.

**warboss**

BanjoJohn wrote:

To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.

You misspelled DS9 three times.

**Mr Morden**

Discovery could have been ok if not for the central character being an unlikeable Mary Sue on Crack that was the best at everything and that was just the first season before the writers really started to ramp up her bullgak and ignore everyone else.

Picard I wanted to like - but ughh the writing again is shocking - some good stuff but the final awful episode of season 1 was something they never recovered from. I also think I dislike the horrible Raffi character almost as much as Burnham.

I was looking forward to seeing what they could do with the Empress - but then I saw the trailer and knew it was doomed - there is nothing good in it.

**Just Tony**

warboss wrote:
BanjoJohn wrote:

To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.

You misspelled DS9 three times.

DS9 is overrated. It's on par with the three he listed, and isn't some paragon of flawless writing.

**warboss**

Flawless? Definitely not as there were stinker episodes (mainly in the first two seasons where they were basically on house arrest on the promenade most of the time). gak got real when Sisko lost the hair though (similar to Riker growing his beard on TNG)!

**Lathe Biosas**

warboss wrote:
BanjoJohn wrote:

To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.

You misspelled DS9 three times.

So did you. It's just B5. Which was show so good that if you missed an episode you could watch it later on DS9.

**warboss**

Lathe Biosas wrote:
warboss wrote:
BanjoJohn wrote:

To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.

You misspelled DS9 three times.

So did you. It's just B5. Which was show so good that if you missed an episode you could watch it later on DS9.

Sometimes even with the same actors!

Loved both the shows though but admittedly I haven't done a full rewatch of B5 though since unlike DS9 which I have seen multiple times since ending.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I’d give DS9 the edge over B5, precisely because it is Star Trek but, aha, boldly went, in a somewhat different direction.

No warping away when the problem seemed solved. Consequences could and would manifest later in the series.

After all?

I can live with it.

**A Town Called Malus**

DS9 did give us Section 31 as a critique of the CIA and the concept that you need dirty people doing dirty things which fly against the ideals of a society to preserve the safety of that society. In that show such arguments were roundly rejected by characters like Bashir. The Federation didn't need Section 31, it didn't need to betray the ideals it stands for.

Then, over many years of corporate warping especially in a post 9/11 world where it was argued that torture was a necessary tool in America's intelligence gathering arsenal, the message became that actually Section 31 was required for the federation to exist. That utopian democracy needs unaccountable men and women doing torture, murder, regime change etc. out of sight of the public.

**Lathe Biosas**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d give DS9 the edge over B5, precisely because it is Star Trek but, aha, boldly went, in a somewhat different direction.

No warping away when the problem seemed solved. Consequences could and would manifest later in the series.

After all?

I can live with it.

I just didn't like DS9 and Paramount actively Ripping off B5.

https://b5books.com/the-star-trek-ds9-vs-babylon-5-controversy/

**Mr Morden**

warboss wrote:
Flawless? Definitely not as there were stinker episodes (mainly in the first two seasons where they were basically on house arrest on the promenade most of the time). gak got real when Sisko lost the hair though (similar to Riker growing his beard on TNG)!

It had some great episodes and plenty of mirror universe which I always enjoy but also the last episode was poor and stuff like mind wiping Worfs brother was pretty awful

Automatically Appended Next Post:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
DS9 did give us Section 31 as a critique of the CIA and the concept that you need dirty people doing dirty things which fly against the ideals of a society to preserve the safety of that society. In that show such arguments were roundly rejected by characters like Bashir. The Federation didn't need Section 31, it didn't need to betray the ideals it stands for.

Then, over many years of corporate warping especially in a post 9/11 world where it was argued that torture was a necessary tool in America's intelligence gathering arsenal, the message became that actually Section 31 was required for the federation to exist. That utopian democracy needs unaccountable men and women doing torture, murder, regime change etc. out of sight of the public.

True but it also had the excellent (IMO) In the Pale Moonlight which had much less of a certain path to utopia - I mean even the Culture has Special Circumstances....

I really enjoyed both B5 and DS9

**Overread**

I still maintain that overall the Picard series are good though I will concede a few things

1) The ending of seasons 1 and 2 feel like they evaporate at the start of the next season. Like there's no continuation of some parts of it.
Where did that mega-fleet go by season 3?; why didn't they go running to friendly borg when there were bad borg running amok?

2) Season 1 100% suffers from untold story developments. A lot of the Romulan storyline and Picards changes are not really shown to us; we get them as flashbacks but we have to put a lot of it together ourselves. This 100% throws people because Picard isn't who he was the last time they saw him in TNG - he's aged, got slower, older and isn't in the same charismatic position (at the head of the flagship of the Federation or an Admiral) that we saw him in before and it clearly throws people.

I still greatly enjoy them because to me they feel like they follow a lot of the darker side of what we saw in DS9; which has otherwise felt like a storyline a lot of other seasons have avoided. Voyager avoided by jumping to another segment of the Galaxy - other seasons have avoided by rebooting; timelines; going way forward or way back. It just feels like the post DS9/Voyager time period is one no other creator has wanted to touch. In a sense I feel like all the other productions almost feel like that ended Startrek and anything you try to do after has to be so far away from it to give it a chance or something.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

On that last point, I think we can pin the blame, to a greater or lesser extent, on JJ Abrams.

Thanks to his first movie, the timeline is….

2375 End of the Dominion War. The Alpha quadrant has a real chance at a lasting peace, if not actual unity, as the major powers just fought off an existential threat together.

2376 - 2387 ????????

2387 Romulus go big boom, after evacuation attempt.

2387 - 2399 ????????

2399 Picard begins.

So whilst yes, there’s around 30 or so years one could explore? We’ve set events breaking that up, and set fall out from them.

This includes the question of “how did a culture as advanced and numerous as the Romulan Star Empire come to rely on the Federation for evacuation”.

Not to mention “did anything underhand happen in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War, or did we see unprecedented cooperation and peace as the participants began the long road to recovery”.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am going to fit in some praise for the Picard we got in, erm, Picard.

See, like Kirk? He became a relic. His statesmanly approach to careful negotiation was as out of date, post Dominion War, as Kirk’s “should I shoot it or shag it” approach did, post Kitomer.

Each was absolutely the Captain Starfleet needed in their day, but time and pressures overtook them.

And so, we’re left with a disillusioned Picard, one arguably heartbroken by his own failure to save the Romulans. Possibly bitter about being kind of put out to pasture, his clout and influence gone.

They definitely could’ve done more there of course.

**Lathe Biosas**

Here's the Timeline from startrek.com (Starting with Nemesis - Caution a Lot of Spoilers are included):

Spoiler:

**BanjoJohn**

warboss wrote:
BanjoJohn wrote:

To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.

You misspelled DS9 three times.

I think its fine you enjoy DS9 the most, I like DS9, but TOS is still the best to me, and if it wasn't for the popularity of TOS none of the other shows would exist, so at the very least it deserves some respect. I don't think the people in charge of Trek even respect TOS any more.

As for B5, I love B5. It's different than DS9, and I've heard enough things back and forth to say that I don't really believe DS9 ripped off B5, nor that B5 ripped off DS9, I think it was a coincidental occurrence of two similar shows at the same time. B5 had one thing that I don't think DS9 had at the time, a stronger online community that also had communication with JMS. It's kinda too bad he's gone crazy these last few years. If B5 does get rebooted I hope his mental state doesn't affect the writing.

**Overread**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I am going to fit in some praise for the Picard we got in, erm, Picard.

See, like Kirk? He became a relic. His statesmanly approach to careful negotiation was as out of date, post Dominion War, as Kirk’s “should I shoot it or shag it” approach did, post Kitomer.

Each was absolutely the Captain Starfleet needed in their day, but time and pressures overtook them.

And so, we’re left with a disillusioned Picard, one arguably heartbroken by his own failure to save the Romulans. Possibly bitter about being kind of put out to pasture, his clout and influence gone.

They definitely could’ve done more there of course.

That's a great point to include Kirk in the comparison. We also saw a bit of it with Scotty too in TNG when he had his appearance there. Again we saw someone who was once top of their game reduced to a relic. Granted in his case it was being stuck in a matter storage thingy for decades; but the effect is still the same kind of bittersweet experience for the character and for the audience too.

**AduroT**

warboss wrote:
Flawless? Definitely not as there were stinker episodes (mainly in the first two seasons where they were basically on house arrest on the promenade most of the time). gak got real when Sisko lost the hair though (similar to Riker growing his beard on TNG)!

Sisko didn’t lose his hair, it simply migrated to a different part of his head.

**LordofHats**

Lathe Biosas wrote:

https://b5books.com/the-star-trek-ds9-vs-babylon-5-controversy/

There's really no truth to the entire thing. I'm surprised there's still anyone who buys into this myth.

Straczynski never accused Berman of ripping of B5. He did accuse Paramount of using his scripts and notes to steer the direction of the series, but that accusation doesn't hold up to the timeline of DS9's production or detailed accounts of how the show was brainstormed (it was propose initially as 'The Rifleman in Space' to build off the idea of TOS being 'Wagon Train in Space').

If anything, they maybe ripped the Rifleman off too hard, but by the time DS9 aired and its fandom grew the Rifleman was a mostly forgotten show from the late 50s but almost everything in DS9 can be seen as a 1-to-1 transfer of ideas from the Rifleman into a sci-fi setting.

It really is a case of two pieces of media emerging around the same time with similar premise's and themes, which isn't particularly rare and those similarities grew slimmer the longer the shows ran.

EDIT: Actually Wagon Train would probably be entirely forgotten too except people watch Star Trek and come across the phrase 'Wagon Train in Space' to vaguely clue them in that there was once a show called Wagon Train.

A Town Called Malus wrote:DS9 did give us Section 31

I aggressively view Section 31 as being a literal cancer. Cells that were perfectly fine in their original place, but have toxically grown beyond that place and begun infecting other organs. I really really wish S31 would just stop happening. It needs to be cut out of the broader franchise like a tumor because none of these other writers really have any good ideas on what to do with it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’d give DS9 the edge over B5, precisely because it is Star Trek but, aha, boldly went, in a somewhat different direction

Honestly the biggest leg up for DS9 in the comparison imo is that DS9 used a lot less early CGI in its production. The CGI effects in B5 have not aged well. At all. They're very fugly and kind of diminishes the quality of the show on rewatches vs DS9 or TNG who used a lot of practical sets and models that have simply aged better.

**Gert**

IMO Section 31 is fine being there, the problem is that an entire season of Discovery was focused on it.

I had no issue with two episodes of DS9 and one episode of Enterprise because they're contained. IMO it suits the Enterprise era where there is no Federation and it's a unit associated with the far less utopian UEG.
It does seem that the broader idea is that post-Dominion War, Section 31 isn't a rogue agency with an "At All Costs" attitude but more a special mission group aimed at the Massive Picture operations i.e. stopping the multiverse from collapsing.

Discovery (unsurprisingly) is the problem. A whole entire season dedicated to the one thing that absolutely should never ever ever have gotten that much focus.
Gotta keep Emperor Georgiou in there somehow though and somehow tie Burnham to The Plot.
Ugh. Discovery.

**Overread**

I have to agree Section 31 worked as a small scale elite doing shifty things in the background of the Federation - making them a major power player and influence capable of major actions suddenly changed things. Indeed that and the whole temporal war and other things feel much more DC/Marvel than Startrek.

Sadly I think that DC/Marvel just has such a massive influence on US writers and producers and that was even before the massive take off of their various film franchises.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

It is sad that Trek has shied away from stuff like Chain of Command and In The Pale Moonlight

Whilst hardly representative of their respective series average quality? They were such incredible high points for both, showing the mettle of the respective Captains, with absolutely superb acting all round. And I’m not sure you could substitute Picard or Sisko in those roles with other Captains.

It’s also fair to praise TNG for its own arcing continuity. Whilst lesser than DS9, stuff does stay happened. And that lets us invest in the characters and their development.

Disco? I’m really not sure anyone grows. It’s like an entire cast of Harry “no growth for you” Kim. That’s when they remember “oh yeah we’ve a whole other bridge crew we could explore, but that’s like, hard to write”.

I also really enjoy O’Brien and his family. Whilst somewhat tropey thanks to O’Brian Must Suffer, it’s the first nuclear family we really get to know. Ben and Jake Sisko too, but for me to a lesser degree.

To see Miles have to juggle his duties to service and family is, mostly, done really well and sympathetically.

**The_Real_Chris**

BanjoJohn wrote:
B5 had one thing that I don't think DS9 had at the time, a stronger online community that also had communication with JMS. It's kinda too bad he's gone crazy these last few years. If B5 does get rebooted I hope his mental state doesn't affect the writing.

Oh what has happened to the chap?

**warboss**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
BanjoJohn wrote:
B5 had one thing that I don't think DS9 had at the time, a stronger online community that also had communication with JMS. It's kinda too bad he's gone crazy these last few years. If B5 does get rebooted I hope his mental state doesn't affect the writing.

Oh what has happened to the chap?

Politics... Just like so many others in Hollywood. To my knowledge and giving miniscule credit where credit is due, he hasn't started attacking half his fans overtly and directly yet.

**BanjoJohn**

warboss wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
BanjoJohn wrote:
B5 had one thing that I don't think DS9 had at the time, a stronger online community that also had communication with JMS. It's kinda too bad he's gone crazy these last few years. If B5 does get rebooted I hope his mental state doesn't affect the writing.

Oh what has happened to the chap?

Politics... Just like so many others in Hollywood. To my knowledge and giving miniscule credit where credit is due, he hasn't started attacking half his fans overtly and directly yet.

He's said a few dodgy things, like if you voted for trump you and were a fan of B5, that you "didn't understand the show", but I could clearly make parallel connections between the corrupt earthgov story arc that he had in B5, and not only the trump admin, but the biden admin, and the obama admin, and the bush admin, etc. I mean the show is so broad that I don't really see it as bein "rah rah pro democrats" or "rah rah pro republicans"

**lord_blackfang**

LordofHats wrote:
I aggressively view Section 31 as being a literal cancer. Cells that were perfectly fine in their original place, but have toxically grown beyond that place and begun infecting other organs. I really really wish S31 would just stop happening. It needs to be cut out of the broader franchise like a tumor because none of these other writers really have any good ideas on what to do with it.

We're not allowed to have utopia. Plebs need to be told that socialism can't work without Space KGB secretly doing war crimes to keep the sheep safe.