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 lord_blackfang wrote:
I don't need CIA copaganda in my democratic socialist utopia.

The only acceptable Section 31 content would be them put on trial that proved they're just a bunch of self-righteous loons and psychopaths using "national security" as an excuse to rob and murder people and their services had never ever been required for the survival of the Federation, and then they all get locked away forever and the democratic socialist utopia continues to function unfazed.

QFT.
But I doubt the current Trek writing staff likes that. When watching Picard I had the feeling they hated everything about the character and tried to utterly destroy him and his achievements. Instead we got dystopian Trek were Hitler from mirror universe becomes a Section 31 hero and buddy of Spocks sister.

That latest episode of SNW was a lovely bit of fun.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I don't need CIA copaganda in my democratic socialist utopia.

The only acceptable Section 31 content would be them put on trial that proved they're just a bunch of self-righteous loons and psychopaths using "national security" as an excuse to rob and murder people and their services had never ever been required for the survival of the Federation, and then they all get locked away forever and the democratic socialist utopia continues to function unfazed.

Agree, that should always be the end game with Section 31.
Anyways, I've said this before but Section 31 jumped a million sharks in Disco when they had their own secret fleet and navy that appears to be bigger than Starfleet complete with identifiable combadges.

Starfleet Academy is a good idea. Something they haven't fully explored but is fully rooted in ST lore. Could be a YA themed Star Trek which is fine if done right. Was that a Jem'Hadar cadet I saw? Always wiondered what happened to them.

Even the Culture (who are what the Federation aspire to be) have Special Circumstances - https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Special_Circumstances_(Wikipedia_version)

The idea of S31 is not a bad one but as usual it gets far too much screen time and explanation.

Although its more of a problem imo having a central bad fan faction character that is always right, is the best at everything and worshiped by the rest of the characters.

The problem with Section 31 is that it has no place in Roddenberry's Star Trek...

Which is essentially the Original Series, The Motion Picture and the early years of The Next Generation.

Ronald Moore discussed in an interview the issues of trying to explain Roddenberry's Trek ideals to alien cultures.

It definitely has a place, it just should never have been so prevalent.

Before Discovery's big blow up there were what six total episodes? In Enterprise it's the earliest days of human space travel, they haven't even fully built a utopia on Earth yet. Section 31 should exist in this era.
By DS9, it shouldn't exist and that's the idea presented. It doesn't really exist and a select few know about it until the Dominion War when it starts taking more overt action due to desperation in Starfleet.
But by the end of the Dominion War, it's suffered heavy losses (like all of Starfleet) and it's CO is dead. The organisation as a unregulated spy force is gone.
For Lower Decks, it seems to have evolved into a legitimate force for good doing secret missions that counter threats to all of reality rather than just the Federation.

Discovery (shocking nobody) was the real problem. Section 31 became an organisation that operated in open view for "reasons" and had a massive amount of direct resources and staff rather than utilising sources and cultivated agents.

It's the sweet tooth issue.

Mangers see that X story point is popular and start to do it more. They see it remain popular so they then jump to a massive focus on it.

It's like sugar; one chocolate is nice; two is great; a backpack full in one go is way too much and spoils it and now you're sick.


Plus that was probably a really "cheap" backpack full so it was a lower grade compared to when it was just one or two chocolates.

I always said that a holodeck would be cool but I wouldn't want one on my ship. They cause way too many problems. At least twice a year people get trapped in there with the safeties off. In TNG it actually, acidently created an super-intelligent and super-dangerous lifeform just by saying make something as smart as Data. Like all holodecks should have been decomisioned after that incident.
Apparently in the SNW era they see the problem and turn it off but by TNG time no matter how crazy things get they won't turn it off.
I guess it's like the social media of the 24th century. We know it's bad and harmful but its so addictive...

I’d need to watch the TNG Scotty episode again - but I’m pretty sure he showed no recognition of the Holo-Deck when first shown it in that episode?

Also, it’s only Federation Holo tech that’s suspect. Quark’s Holo-Suites hardly ever malfunction!

They had holodecks even way back in Enterprise era. I think the main difference is that Kirk's Enterprise just didn't have one.


It is amusing though how they just asked the computer to make a villain to challenge Data and the computer did it. Indeed Computer is the most overlooked and underrated character in the whole series!

 Overread wrote:
They had holodecks even way back in Enterprise era. I think the main difference is that Kirk's Enterprise just didn't have one.


It is amusing though how they just asked the computer to make a villain to challenge Data and the computer did it. Indeed Computer is the most overlooked and underrated character in the whole series!

They didn't have holodecks on Archer's NX-01 Enterprise, they had a gym and movie night.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Overread wrote:
They had holodecks even way back in Enterprise era. I think the main difference is that Kirk's Enterprise just didn't have one.


It is amusing though how they just asked the computer to make a villain to challenge Data and the computer did it. Indeed Computer is the most overlooked and underrated character in the whole series!

They didn't have holodecks on Archer's NX-01 Enterprise, they had a gym and movie night.

The technology itself was around though. There's a whole episode in an early season (might even be season 1) where there's a race hiding in a Klingon's warp trails limping home and they get found out and Archer manages to basically negotiate the way out by having the aliens trade their Holodeck software with the Klingons.

 Overread wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Overread wrote:
They had holodecks even way back in Enterprise era. I think the main difference is that Kirk's Enterprise just didn't have one.


It is amusing though how they just asked the computer to make a villain to challenge Data and the computer did it. Indeed Computer is the most overlooked and underrated character in the whole series!

They didn't have holodecks on Archer's NX-01 Enterprise, they had a gym and movie night.

The technology itself was around though. There's a whole episode in an early season (might even be season 1) where there's a race hiding in a Klingon's warp trails limping home and they get found out and Archer manages to basically negotiate the way out by having the aliens trade their Holodeck software with the Klingons.

Yeah, that's the Trip gets laid with the hot alien in their holodeck episode... by holding hands.

Ahh yes you are right!

Such scandal to hold hands like that!

He didn’t just get laid, she straight up impregnated him via hand holding!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Name drops with random ranks associated with them

Spoilers: 7 of 9 will not be promoted beyond Captain!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d need to watch the TNG Scotty episode again - but I’m pretty sure he showed no recognition of the Holo-Deck when first shown it in that episode?

Also, it’s only Federation Holo tech that’s suspect. Quark’s Holo-Suites hardly ever malfunction!

In season 2 a Romulan Spy said we were already in an alternate timeline ("this was supposed to happen in the 1990s!") and if you can't trust a Romulan Spy then who can you trust?

And if we're in an alternate timeline then I am free of the urge to nitpick!

So I think I am now caught up thanks to Jiohotstar, 300 Rs a quarter well spent.

There's a lot here I COULD dislike but the darn show is so charming I can't dislike it. Unlike Disco which seemed to be actively unlikeable.

The Gorn Episode
Nice action, I can dig it.

The Zombie Episode
Please stop trying to create tension by putting main characters in danger, they're not in danger, they're in the opening credits! Bring back the Red Shirt Ensigns! If you want tension send Pike down with ten of them!

The Wedding Episode
Cute, and who doesn't like both the Squire of Gothos and Q?

The Holodeck Episode
I don't like trapped in the holodeck stories, I don't like meta stories, I don't like Trek anachronisms!
Yet I did not dislike this one. And I did like Scotty coming up with a 30 years late explanation for why Voyager did not have enough energy for food, but did have enough for Janeway to play Gothic Romance Novel on the holodeck. That's the sort of patching and fixing that wins you a No-Prize!

Yeah, good call. Where are our stalwart Redshirts!? If you only kill 75% of them there's a bit of suspense if ensign Ricky survives.

Latest SNW is solid.

Nice to be back to an action one. And it’s definitely Trek Action.

Random thought...

What if someone did a Star Wars story in the Star Trek universe and vice versa?

The USS Midway is a Nimitz class carrier with two dozen Peregrine Class Federation Fighters. The show follows the pilots of Renegade Squadron as they battle the forces of the Klingon Empire. Central characters include Duke Starrider, a fighter pilot whose mysterious half-Betazoid heritage gives him strange psychic powers and noted smuggler and scoundrel Thadiun Okona.

Meanwhile...

In the days of the Old Republic the Jedi ship Light of Reason is send to explore an unknown star cluster at the end of newly discovered hyperspace route. Jedi Councilor J'luc Pinard leads the mission of exploration and discovery.

I thought Picard season 1 was really trying to be Star Wars quite hard. The loveable band of rouges style. It made no sense that these people were actually Starfleet captains.

Picard as a show is arguably more interesting than first looks might suggest.

Consider Kirk. In his “shag it or shoot it” heyday, Kirk was the sort of dashing, roguish Captain Starfleet needed. But, by Picard’s era, that style wouldn’t have cut the mustard. Indeed, under that incarnation it’s arguable Kirk may have struggled to make it beyond Lt.

Picard was the Statesman Starfleet needed at the time. Patient. Insightful. Willing to listen. A truly excellent negotiator, to whom violence was always the last possible option.

Then came….The Dominion War.

Picard’s Diplomacy First approach kind of fell out of fashion. He became an outdated relic of a previous era.

Add in his failure to save the Romulans? And you end up with an old boy out of time. Oh he’ll always have Starfleet’s respect for his actions. But he’s a fossil. Someone not suited to the New Normal. And it kind of broke his spirit.

Viewed through that lens, I found Picard the series much more enjoyable. A legend of waning stature trying to Do The Right Thing one last time. And not necessarily for the sake of his own ego.

Kirk being "shag it or shoot it" is more myth than reality.

 Ahtman wrote:
Kirk being "shag it or shoot it" is more myth than reality.

Kirk was more of a "I'll sacrifice myself for the good of others" type of Captain.

I mean Kirk did romance about every alien he met if it was female!

I think he was famed for "shoot or shag" but he could more than hold his own diplomatically as well. I think it just gets overshadowed because Picard just owned diplomacy as a huge part of his character. Plus the diplomatic parts are always a bit more "serious" whilst original series people often look back on its more wild-west free and loose attitude.









As for Picard the series the biggest problem is its set a decade after Nemesis where Picard has been retired. His rise to Admiral and his leaving and a huge number of other major events all happen off-screen. So we spend a lot of Picard having to learn to like basically a new character because he's changed. People have also changed around him and he's also not commanding a loyal crew at the head of the flagship of the Federation. He's basically a nobody civilian who did some great things in his past, but the world has moved on from him because he stepped so fully away from it for so long.

It's honestly a really hard role for him to act because fans want the old Picard they remember not the one he's become.

It's honestly the same problem Luke has in Starwas 7. They gave such a huge time jump after Return of the Jedi that - again - we the audience are left having to restart everything and reconnect with characters decades older and changed through huge events in their lives. It's not impossible (with a good script and actors) but its a big jump because so much has shifted around.

The problem with Picard is that it follows the style of the badder TNG films in being overly actiony and having very weak plots.

Picard was cool because he was the mean grandpa who make you sit and listen to him give you some wisdom whether you wanted to hear it not.

Picard has always been a less than convincing action hero, even when we was a significantly younger old man.

 Overread wrote:
I mean Kirk did romance about every alien he met if it was female!

He flirted with a lot of them because he had rizz, as the kids would say, but he didn't romance every female they met. He was a hyper-competent and intelligent officer that could be a huge ass because of his ego but he was also the guy to sacrifice himself for his crew. In the Academy he was referred to as a stack of books on legs, reprogrammed the Kobiyashi Maru simulation himself, and he consistently beat Spock at 3D chess.


Confusing what he actually did with the myths is how you get a Kelvin timeline Kirk that seduced an alien to reprogram the simulation for him instead of doing it himself and magically jumping from ensign to XO to Captain in like two days, instead of spending years working up the chain, and making decisions based on gut feelings.

Kirk was way more than a flirt considering how many he openly kissed or was prepared to break protocol over.

You can't deny that was part of his character, however yes alongside that he was intelligent, resourceful, held strong morals to the ideal of Starfleet. Heck he butted heads more than once with the higher-ups which became a running theme throughout Star Trek in general. He wasn't just a romantic captain, he had all the qualities needed to command the Enterprise. Picard feels more serious but then again TNG had a bigger budget; over a decade more advance in TV special effects and a different style that leaned toward a more serious tone. Kirk was also way more muscular and apt to fight in a scrap compared to Picard.


Kelvin Timeline is just a mess where Kirk lacks almost all his qualities. It's one of those films where they don't know how to make him work so they have senior characters always waxing poetical about how amazing he is; how gifted, talented, how much potential he has etc... Heck the first film he's basically borderline comic-relief for most of the film whilst Spock is basically everything he should be. Meanwhile McCoy doesn't really appear at all and even feels like he's aged up compared to the other two and is just sort of "there". Even his nickname "Bones" is just shoehorned in there rather than being something of a bonding moment between the three of them.

It's a film that doesn't know how to setup its characters barring Spock.

 Overread wrote:
Kirk was way more than a flirt considering how many he openly kissed or was prepared to break protocol over.

I never said he was some abstinent monk just that the way that it is portrayed is overblown.

Also, Picard got around too in his younger years.

We first meet Picard at a later stage of his career than we first meet Kirk.

Hyperbole aside, there’s still a marked difference between the two Captains.

And by the time of Picard S1? He’s been put out to pasture.

Picard (the series) lacks convincing explanations for why the federation turned into a shithole (you don't have to sleep in a trailer in the federation, unless you're really stupid or badly written, Miss Ruffy!) Because some androids rebelled on Mars the whole federation went down? Come on, they've been through worse things and still the federation thrived and kept their utopia. It's just the new writers lacking imagination, hence they copy mass effect (Pic. S1), Suicide Squad (Section 31), Game of Thrones (Disco S1) and can only reference the old series but not really continue them or create something even close to TNG/DS9. Really if you look back it's these two forming that framework of Trek, TNG (and to a lesser extent TOS) building the World, and DS9 diving deeply into it. Voyager, Enterprise and Lower Decks then tried to work with it and partly succeeded, but didn't really continue, because all of them had their restraints.

SNW gets the tone right, though. They show a nice crew that I want to see on a Starfleet ship. However, even SNW appears to not really know what to do with that crew, hence half of season 2 were joke episodes. DS9 could do occasional joke episodes because they had 24 episodes per season, I'd wish SNW did more like the Gorn arc. Funnily enough, of all the new Trek series I think Prodigy actually has the best writers to come up with a continuous Trek Story, but I always get the feeling noone watched that