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Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

nobody wrote:
I don't really have a horse in the Malifaux argument, but my experience has been that if a model is not tournament legal, potential opponents will generally avoid playing against it. Usually this is because they're practicing for a tournament or tuning a list for one.

I used to see this all the time with special characters in 40k and Fantasy back in the day, and DZC had the same issue with their special commanders.


I try really hard to be empathetic with gamers about changes, but the way people react when models become cut from tournament play shows a really undignified aspect of the hobby. Malifuax isn't crazy expensive, but a single master model is still a small chunk of most people's collections. WMH shows what happens when you keep adding more and more characters to a game: bloat, repetition, and brokenness. I get it, it sucks if you love a model and can't play it anymore, but if a game has, in any way, a tournament scene, then the odds are really good that there are models that are de facto unplayable anyway. I'd rather a company be honest with me, and just say "you can't use Jimmy the Steampunk Samurai in tournaments" rather than look at my new rulebook and find out that Jimmy is now wildly overcosted and niche. (see, for example, Titans in 8th edition 40k)



   
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 Polonius wrote:
nobody wrote:
I don't really have a horse in the Malifaux argument, but my experience has been that if a model is not tournament legal, potential opponents will generally avoid playing against it. Usually this is because they're practicing for a tournament or tuning a list for one.

I used to see this all the time with special characters in 40k and Fantasy back in the day, and DZC had the same issue with their special commanders.


I try really hard to be empathetic with gamers about changes, but the way people react when models become cut from tournament play shows a really undignified aspect of the hobby. Malifuax isn't crazy expensive, but a single master model is still a small chunk of most people's collections. WMH shows what happens when you keep adding more and more characters to a game: bloat, repetition, and brokenness. I get it, it sucks if you love a model and can't play it anymore, but if a game has, in any way, a tournament scene, then the odds are really good that there are models that are de facto unplayable anyway. I'd rather a company be honest with me, and just say "you can't use Jimmy the Steampunk Samurai in tournaments" rather than look at my new rulebook and find out that Jimmy is now wildly overcosted and niche. (see, for example, Titans in 8th edition 40k)
It's undignified to be upset that a model you enjoy using (and paid for with no expectations of it being removed in the future) has been cut based on the whims of the people writing the books? Especially with how synergistic Malifuax is so sometimes it's not just a single model that ends up hurt. It's not as if people were expecting a standard like Magic or card games to pop in after a bit so to see it appear here in this fashion certainly turned some of the people I know who play it off.

I don't personally play it myself, but I know plenty that do, so I am just hearing it from second hand sources on this example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 12:23:24


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

I actually agree with Polonius on that front - I thought it was noble that PP tried to never invalidate models, but it also meant there were all these rather terribly sculpted mercenaries from Mk1 that just kept hanging around and having to be accounted for, but rarely fielded.

They took up design space that new releases could have used, and invalidating a few solo models wouldn't have been very bad for anybody, imo (as opposed to full units or warbeasts that got drastically better/worse in edition changes, which made a much bigger impact).

Just my take, of course, but it's something that has me interested in and considering Malifaux 3rd edition, that they're willing to actually make updates and cycle some things out if needed.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
nobody wrote:
I don't really have a horse in the Malifaux argument, but my experience has been that if a model is not tournament legal, potential opponents will generally avoid playing against it. Usually this is because they're practicing for a tournament or tuning a list for one.

I used to see this all the time with special characters in 40k and Fantasy back in the day, and DZC had the same issue with their special commanders.


I try really hard to be empathetic with gamers about changes, but the way people react when models become cut from tournament play shows a really undignified aspect of the hobby. Malifuax isn't crazy expensive, but a single master model is still a small chunk of most people's collections. WMH shows what happens when you keep adding more and more characters to a game: bloat, repetition, and brokenness. I get it, it sucks if you love a model and can't play it anymore, but if a game has, in any way, a tournament scene, then the odds are really good that there are models that are de facto unplayable anyway. I'd rather a company be honest with me, and just say "you can't use Jimmy the Steampunk Samurai in tournaments" rather than look at my new rulebook and find out that Jimmy is now wildly overcosted and niche. (see, for example, Titans in 8th edition 40k)
It's undignified to be upset that a model you enjoy using (and paid for with no expectations of it being removed in the future) has been cut based on the whims of the people writing the books? Especially with how synergistic Malifuax is so sometimes it's not just a single model that ends up hurt. It's not as if people were expecting a standard like Magic or card games to pop in after a bit so to see it appear here in this fashion certainly turned some of the people I know who play it off.

I don't personally play it myself, but I know plenty that do, so I am just hearing it from second hand sources on this example.


I dont' play either, but I'm familiar with the game, and reading Wyrd's own description of how they are changing the Masters in 3rd, some are changing factions, many are changing play styles, and they are all gaining more of a key word based crew building. In short, nearly all synergies are going to change anyway.

I'm not a big fan of invalidating models just because, but when there is a major edition change, and everything is getting blended anyway, dropping a few models to clear up design space is a defensible position. And I'd rather see them just ax a single model (which is what, $20?) if that keeps the game fresh.

   
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

We should probably take the Wyrd / Malifaux discussion to the appropriate thread - here's a link to the Malifaux thread, with an update on the Masters who are being cycled out, the fluff reasoning behind it, and where/how you can still use them:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1650/560907.page#10083001

So, let's take further discussion on that specific topic over there

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/27 12:52:37


 
   
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Washington State

What happened to WarmaHordes? Privateer Press happened.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
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UK

It also seemed to be that all the characters used to end up in fights and never quite manage to do anything to each other - it was very Saturday morning serial.


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It's undignified to be upset that a model you enjoy using (and paid for with no expectations of it being removed in the future) has been cut based on the whims of the people writing the books?

Hissy fits are the definition of undignified.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles

 Mr Morden wrote:
It also seemed to be that all the characters used to end up in fights and never quite manage to do anything to each other - it was very Saturday morning serial.



Unless you were Cryx. Then you got stomped because Cryx could just raise their guys back up.

I loved PP fluff until the end of MK 1. Between Hailey smacking the crap out of Skarre in Skarre's own territory, and the Butcher somehow not dying when wounded and surrounded by a unit of sword knights, well, I just gave up caring about the dramatic tension in the stories. It seemed clear that the non-Cryx characters would always get away, while Cryx's characters would be killed and resurrected for next week's cartoon, oops, sorry I meant story.

   
Made in us
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 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
It also seemed to be that all the characters used to end up in fights and never quite manage to do anything to each other - it was very Saturday morning serial.



Unless you were Cryx. Then you got stomped because Cryx could just raise their guys back up.

I loved PP fluff until the end of MK 1. Between Hailey smacking the crap out of Skarre in Skarre's own territory, and the Butcher somehow not dying when wounded and surrounded by a unit of sword knights, well, I just gave up caring about the dramatic tension in the stories. It seemed clear that the non-Cryx characters would always get away, while Cryx's characters would be killed and resurrected for next week's cartoon, oops, sorry I meant story.



The Butcher story arc was good, just poorly executed (mainly as we'd been conditioned to know characters survive. My own personal headcanon is WMH, despite being written in the present tense is a story being retold by its survivors). The guy was gone for quite a significant amount of time in in universe time and was presumed dead by everyone. This a good are they/aren't they narrative arc that a lot of other fantasy works do better (i.e. GoT) but wasn't pulled off as well as it could have been IMO.

Thing is, it's been retconned into his background now and how he's represented on the tabletop. He has the most damage boxes of any human sized caster with 20 and was given Tough in Mk3 to also represent this. Dude is a survivor.

Plus there are a few non-Cryx characters that have died and only come back due to miraculous circumstances. Off the top of my head Vlad killed Harbinger simply to prevent Gaspy getting his hands on her (yes, Harbinger can come back, but Vlad didn't know that). Vlad himself got killed (interesting side note, this was a nice "fulfilling of the prophecy" moment as Vlad's death coincided with the coming of Everblight) only to be resurrected by The Old Witch.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/27 17:19:32



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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 LunarSol wrote:
 Krinsath wrote:
One factor that I've seen mentioned but not really explored is the war with online discounts they embarked upon shortly before Mk. 3 was released. While they said it was to level the playing field for B&M stores, they then moved a bunch of their SKUs to special orders and did away with the Press Ganger program which would seem to be fairly anti-B&M moves. So in essence it seemed they managed to anger both online and B&M partners in the span of a couple months which is...generally a dumb idea for any supplier in any industry. That could have factored into some stores deciding they no longer wanted to bother carrying the lines which in turn does torpedo marginal communities quite effectively. As some have said, a perfect storm of ill-advised decisions by PP.


In some ways, Warmachine is a good example of the problems with the online discount model. A big part of its rise was definitely the price, but that price wasn't really that much lower without considering the online discounts. The problem with this though, is the game was really only thriving through the sales of a couple major outlets. At a local level, a lot of stores were pretty frustrated with the game. They stocked it because people played, but nobody actually bought the stock. You had the enthusiasts buying in heavily, and then bringing those heavy investments in to places that didn't see a dime of it and were mostly taking a loss on what they kept in stock to support this popular thing that filled their shop. Battleboxes sitting on shelves got replaced with products people bought off the shelves and with that, there were definitely fewer new players. The discount limits were pretty necessary, but they kind of exposed the truth that the game really wasn't any cheaper than 40k and rather than people buying locally at prices more in line with what they could get online, a lot of people just stopped buying.

I'm not exactly sure how you go about fixing this, but I think Warmachine is probably the game that was most affected by the online discount bubble, and has certainly suffered after it popped.


The way you solve that problem is by stopping trying to prop up a business model that no longer functions, at the expense of people who never even used it. For every person buying stuff online at deep discounts then going into a store to play, I guarantee you there was at least one other person buying stuff online at deep discounts and playing in homes, or in clubs, or at stores that charge for tables - why should they subsidise B&M stores that refuse to adapt to the changing marketplace? Why should the rest of the world, where clubs and home play are even more common, subsidise American stores & gamers where store-based play is dominant?

The discount limits were not necessary, and they weren't for the benefit of indie B&M stores at all, as others have noted the lie was put to that notion by these companies inevitably immediately turning around and taking some action that completely undermines stores like PP's cancelling of the Press Gangers programme or GW shifting huge chunks of their range to webstore exclusive. They're about making the official webstores for these companies selling at full RRP look more reasonable by comparison, and to prevent retailers from dumping stock when game companies produce a complete flop of a product. If FFG or GW or PP thought for one nanosecond they would make more money by doing it, they would throw B&M stores under a bus without a moment's thought or hesitation.

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 Grimtuff wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
It also seemed to be that all the characters used to end up in fights and never quite manage to do anything to each other - it was very Saturday morning serial.



Unless you were Cryx. Then you got stomped because Cryx could just raise their guys back up.

I loved PP fluff until the end of MK 1. Between Hailey smacking the crap out of Skarre in Skarre's own territory, and the Butcher somehow not dying when wounded and surrounded by a unit of sword knights, well, I just gave up caring about the dramatic tension in the stories. It seemed clear that the non-Cryx characters would always get away, while Cryx's characters would be killed and resurrected for next week's cartoon, oops, sorry I meant story.



The Butcher story arc was good, just poorly executed (mainly as we'd been conditioned to know characters survive. My own personal headcanon is WMH, despite being written in the present tense is a story being retold by its survivors). The guy was gone for quite a significant amount of time in in universe time and was presumed dead by everyone. This a good are they/aren't they narrative arc that a lot of other fantasy works do better (i.e. GoT) but wasn't pulled off as well as it could have been IMO.

Thing is, it's been retconned into his background now and how he's represented on the tabletop. He has the most damage boxes of any human sized caster with 20 and was given Tough in Mk3 to also represent this. Dude is a survivor.

Plus there are a few non-Cryx characters that have died and only come back due to miraculous circumstances. Off the top of my head Vlad killed Harbinger simply to prevent Gaspy getting his hands on her (yes, Harbinger can come back, but Vlad didn't know that). Vlad himself got killed (interesting side note, this was a nice "fulfilling of the prophecy" moment as Vlad's death coincided with the coming of Everblight) only to be resurrected by The Old Witch.


I still stand by the claim that PP's fluff is a cartoon. Even having Vlad and the Harby come back vaporizes all of the emotional impact and weight of their deaths. It is like Duke in the GI JOE cartoon movie miraculously surviving Serpentor's snake to the chest. It robs the supposed sacrifice and makes the death meaningless if only a few pages later some hokey hand waving is done and the character pops back up.

I know why PP did this (and Hasbro did the GI JOE thing) but it doesn't make the story any less boring.

Another example: The battle of the Thornwood was fething epic! Literally, it is what introduced epic Casters to the game, with all of the factions assembling in one location to have a massive throw down. And the only casualty was Denegrha? Fething laaaaaame. Oh, I guess Captain Darius got his eye poked out by Skarre. Why she didn't slit his throat is beyond me, but you know, cartoon so can't have Captain Porta-Potty die since he is a good guy.
   
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A new day, a new time zone.

 oni wrote:
1. People finally woke up and realized that all of the assertions being made about “better rules”, “more balanced game play”, “cheaper models”, “more customer focused company” etc. were all false.

2. The community basically ate itself alive. The toxicity got to be so bad that people (players, organizers, community leaders, etc.) just walked away. The online community disbanded and I know of four areas, each separated by 50+ miles, where the PP community collapsed under the weight of its own vitriol.

Some of my fondest memories...

I once had a Press Ganger do a Warmahine demo with me and the whole time he only trashed GW and W40K. When I asked “What sets this game apart from W40K?”, he said nothing about Warmachine or or PP, he only continued to trash GW and W40K. I was so disgusted that I cut him off mid-sentence and explained to him that his approach to recruiting players is deplorable.

Here’s another great Press Ganger interaction story… I was visiting my home town (~150 miles away from where I had the wonderful demo game mentioned above) and stopped by the LGS. Well wouldn’t you know it, the local Press Ganger was there and after I purchased something W40K related the Press Ganger chimes in “You should just toss that in the trash and learn how to play a real game.”

Sadly, my experiences with the player base isn't any better.


It the 'Sega does what Nintendon't' consoles wars phenomena (hey kids, did you know that Sega used to the top competing console to Nintendo? ). They actually buy into 'if you're not playing the right game, you're doing it wrong, and that's terrible.'

My interaction with Pressgangers was always good, but I just never got into it beyond my immediate group. That's kind of the problem with jokes like 'play like you've got a pair,' because there are people who are going to internalize that not as something tongue in cheek, but a credo to live by. Although in my personal opinion, it was the loss of the Pressgangers that really did it. Dedicated community supported like that is almost priceless, for helping grow and maintain communities.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



Right Behind You

That's the problem when you make your armies function around named characters. You kill off one and you just removed someone's favorite. If they just suffer comic book character deaths and eventually come back, then there are no real stakes. Games like 40K you have the option for and people who still like using the generic heroes over named ones. Cutting out Cypher and Doomrider from CSM going from 3.0 to 3.5 didn't cause a fraction of the backlash that cutting Daemons off into their own codex did in 4th. Even then, GW is still not very good at it. Look how few Primarchs are confirmed dead, and that was before they saw the table top in any form. Look at how many Tau heroes should have been dead by the end of the Indominus Crusade.

I got out of WMH in MK1. The last model I bought was not-Baba Yaga who just came out and then mostly because I like Baba Yaga. Mostly because the few friends I had who liked it (a few got badly stomped trying to learn and soured to it) and I found it to be going towards the MtG combo heavy gaming and because infantry was better to take than the giant robots. That said, my games outside my small group of friends that played often featured a lot of rules lawyers that made many bad ones in 40k seem pleasant. I try to make sure that I make sure my opponents are paying attention to what I'm moving, by how much, and to where. I can't tell you the number of times I'd go to start attacking and mention flanking and all of a sudden I'm being accused of moving too far or moving their model so I could flank. No comment when I initially moved my model though. Then again, many of them probably quickly realized that if they made a stink about anything and refused to settle for a die roll, I'd let them do what they want. Of course if that seemed to be happening more than a few times, I'd tell them they won, packed my stuff, and never played them again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 18:27:25


 
   
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Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. If they have migrated to other games it would be games with similar competitiveness/depth which have been on the rise in recent years with more and more appearing on the market, as this hobby is really growing in popularity both in terms of players and creators at a rate it never has before from what I'm seeing.

Acquiring new players is definitely their biggest problem, which GW probably DOES have a big affect on for a multitude of reasons. Model bloat is definitely a huge issue PP need to address as it is just overwhelmingly bad in WM/H. I like losing the first several games of something to other people, getting completely stomped shows me that theres a lot of room for me to grow as a player in it and those are the kind of games I have always been most drawn to, its very much a 'challenge accepted' moment for me. The trouble with WM/H though is you could probably go 50 games against so many different lists and combos and you still are no closer to winning as theres just too much to learn and going that long with a W or even being close is just too much for most people..

I think the best way to combat this might be to approach it how MTG does and have different formats for competitive play, like the legacy format that has access to pretty much everything where more experiences vets can play, then formats with lower card pools or in this case model counts so you can learn what your stuff and your opponents do in more manageable chunks.

People already declaring the game 'dead' is kind of silly, very much depends on the area... still many active scenes.
I think PP will be ok, they will adapt and survive, whats great about wargaming now is there's so much competition from different company's everyone's having to step up their game to stay relevant. Their new Monsterpocalypse game looks like a fun little side game that I'm certainly interested in trying and may lead others to WM/H that arnt currently aware of its existence.
   
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anab0lic wrote:
Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. .


Found the Page 5 player!

   
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Seattle, WA USA

anab0lic wrote:
Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. If they have migrated to other games it would be games with similar competitiveness/depth which have been on the rise in recent years with more and more appearing on the market, as this hobby is really growing in popularity both in terms of players and creators at a rate it never has before from what I'm seeing.
While anecdotal at best, I can say that I know several people (myself included) who used to be Warmachine/Hordes players and now play AOS and/or 40K. Like just under a dozen that I can name first-hand. And of those, very few delved into Malifaux, Guild Ball, or Infinity (which are sometimes compared as other "competitive" games). I think in some cases, it came down to being sick of the "Page 5 LOLOLOL" attitude that a lot of us saw (and for the record, most of my immediate group started Warmachine in Mk 1) continually growing in the local scene, and just said feth it.

Are GW games as 'crunchy' as others? No. But I have honestly had more fun games in AOS in the last year and change that I've been playing it than I had in the last 3 years of Warmachine while I was still playing it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 19:43:56


 
   
Made in se
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Sweden

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
It also seemed to be that all the characters used to end up in fights and never quite manage to do anything to each other - it was very Saturday morning serial.



Unless you were Cryx. Then you got stomped because Cryx could just raise their guys back up.

I loved PP fluff until the end of MK 1. Between Hailey smacking the crap out of Skarre in Skarre's own territory, and the Butcher somehow not dying when wounded and surrounded by a unit of sword knights, well, I just gave up caring about the dramatic tension in the stories. It seemed clear that the non-Cryx characters would always get away, while Cryx's characters would be killed and resurrected for next week's cartoon, oops, sorry I meant story.



The Butcher story arc was good, just poorly executed (mainly as we'd been conditioned to know characters survive. My own personal headcanon is WMH, despite being written in the present tense is a story being retold by its survivors). The guy was gone for quite a significant amount of time in in universe time and was presumed dead by everyone. This a good are they/aren't they narrative arc that a lot of other fantasy works do better (i.e. GoT) but wasn't pulled off as well as it could have been IMO.

Thing is, it's been retconned into his background now and how he's represented on the tabletop. He has the most damage boxes of any human sized caster with 20 and was given Tough in Mk3 to also represent this. Dude is a survivor.

Plus there are a few non-Cryx characters that have died and only come back due to miraculous circumstances. Off the top of my head Vlad killed Harbinger simply to prevent Gaspy getting his hands on her (yes, Harbinger can come back, but Vlad didn't know that). Vlad himself got killed (interesting side note, this was a nice "fulfilling of the prophecy" moment as Vlad's death coincided with the coming of Everblight) only to be resurrected by The Old Witch.


I still stand by the claim that PP's fluff is a cartoon. Even having Vlad and the Harby come back vaporizes all of the emotional impact and weight of their deaths. It is like Duke in the GI JOE cartoon movie miraculously surviving Serpentor's snake to the chest. It robs the supposed sacrifice and makes the death meaningless if only a few pages later some hokey hand waving is done and the character pops back up.

I know why PP did this (and Hasbro did the GI JOE thing) but it doesn't make the story any less boring.

Another example: The battle of the Thornwood was fething epic! Literally, it is what introduced epic Casters to the game, with all of the factions assembling in one location to have a massive throw down. And the only casualty was Denegrha? Fething laaaaaame. Oh, I guess Captain Darius got his eye poked out by Skarre. Why she didn't slit his throat is beyond me, but you know, cartoon so can't have Captain Porta-Potty die since he is a good guy.


Well, they did kill Severius in one of the novels (Hexeris shoved that glaive he's got into the Hierarch's chest, he was administered last rites by Durant, buried in Imer), but that's one guy among... quite a few more.
   
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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
anab0lic wrote:
Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. .


Found the Page 5 player!


Yes, we are on page 5 of this thread now. How observant of you.


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Users on ignore- 53.

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heh, I've always read into that page 5 quote as go at it, don't play too tentatively, play aggressively experiment and learn....
   
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Devon, UK

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
anab0lic wrote:
Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. .


Found the Page 5 player!


No, he's right. The sheer lack of variety in a turn of 40K is still the biggest barrier to my returning to the game in any meaningful way. I'd forgive the cost, balance issues and demands on both space and model count if I found the game attractive to play. But when so many of the other more popular games offer so much more to think about in a turn (unit activation order, action order during activation, allowing for/anticipating opposition reactions to my actions) on top of the handful of things that 40K does require (model positioning and target priority, but that's about it after the list's built) that 40K just comes across as My First Wargame™. It's the Duplo to the Lego of other systems. Which is not to say entertainment can't be found with Duplo, it's just that at some point some people will want to move on to something which allows them to create something more involved.

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 Valander wrote:
anab0lic wrote:
Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. If they have migrated to other games it would be games with similar competitiveness/depth which have been on the rise in recent years with more and more appearing on the market, as this hobby is really growing in popularity both in terms of players and creators at a rate it never has before from what I'm seeing.
While anecdotal at best, I can say that I know several people (myself included) who used to be Warmachine/Hordes players and now play AOS and/or 40K. Like just under a dozen that I can name first-hand. And of those, very few delved into Malifaux, Guild Ball, or Infinity (which are sometimes compared as other "competitive" games). I think in some cases, it came down to being sick of the "Page 5 LOLOLOL" attitude that a lot of us saw (and for the record, most of my immediate group started Warmachine in Mk 1) continually growing in the local scene, and just said feth it.

Are GW games as 'crunchy' as others? No. But I have honestly had more fun games in AOS in the last year and change that I've been playing it than I had in the last 3 years of Warmachine while I was still playing it.


Well for me personally I feel like games that lack depth/strategy and rely too much on dice rolling luck to just not really engage me much mentally .... I prefer games that give my brain a good workout, games that I can think long and hard and develop strategy's for while I'm away from the game too... I mean games like chess are fun to me and many would consider that a total bore or chore. I like to creatively problem solve and theres more of that involved in a game like WM/H, or a Malifaux and why I'm sticking with Infinity and not delving into kill team (for now.)
   
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anab0lic wrote:
 Valander wrote:
anab0lic wrote:
Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. If they have migrated to other games it would be games with similar competitiveness/depth which have been on the rise in recent years with more and more appearing on the market, as this hobby is really growing in popularity both in terms of players and creators at a rate it never has before from what I'm seeing.
While anecdotal at best, I can say that I know several people (myself included) who used to be Warmachine/Hordes players and now play AOS and/or 40K. Like just under a dozen that I can name first-hand. And of those, very few delved into Malifaux, Guild Ball, or Infinity (which are sometimes compared as other "competitive" games). I think in some cases, it came down to being sick of the "Page 5 LOLOLOL" attitude that a lot of us saw (and for the record, most of my immediate group started Warmachine in Mk 1) continually growing in the local scene, and just said feth it.

Are GW games as 'crunchy' as others? No. But I have honestly had more fun games in AOS in the last year and change that I've been playing it than I had in the last 3 years of Warmachine while I was still playing it.


Well for me personally I feel like games that lack depth/strategy and rely too much on dice rolling luck to just not really engage me much mentally .... I prefer games that give my brain a good workout, games that I can think long and hard and develop strategy's for while I'm away from the game too... I mean games like chess are fun to me and many would consider that a total bore or chore. I like to creatively problem solve and theres more of that involved in a game like WM/H, or a Malifaux and why I'm sticking with Infinity and not delving into kill team (for now.)
I see this criticism a lot. And, honestly, used to say more or less the same thing. But, after actually playing more GW recently, I will begrudgingly admit they're not as simplistic as I once made them out to be. Now, that's not to say they're super "deep" either (and frankly, I didn't see Warmachine as that "deep" but my background was cut on the likes of Star Fleet Battles), but they are more than just Checkers + Yahtzee (which I used to claim they were as well). Honestly, AOS is more akin to a CCG than a "wargame," but then Warmachine was also that way from the get go, focusing on synergies and mega combos. There is just the same amount of reliance on dice in WM/H as there is in AOS, it's just not quite as obvious.

And my time as an Infernal showed me a lot of the ugly underside of the Warmachine community, and just how "balanced" that system really was. I bailed just before Mk 3 dropped, and from what I've seen it isn't enticing me to come back.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/27 20:49:03


 
   
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 Mangod wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
It also seemed to be that all the characters used to end up in fights and never quite manage to do anything to each other - it was very Saturday morning serial.



Unless you were Cryx. Then you got stomped because Cryx could just raise their guys back up.

I loved PP fluff until the end of MK 1. Between Hailey smacking the crap out of Skarre in Skarre's own territory, and the Butcher somehow not dying when wounded and surrounded by a unit of sword knights, well, I just gave up caring about the dramatic tension in the stories. It seemed clear that the non-Cryx characters would always get away, while Cryx's characters would be killed and resurrected for next week's cartoon, oops, sorry I meant story.



The Butcher story arc was good, just poorly executed (mainly as we'd been conditioned to know characters survive. My own personal headcanon is WMH, despite being written in the present tense is a story being retold by its survivors). The guy was gone for quite a significant amount of time in in universe time and was presumed dead by everyone. This a good are they/aren't they narrative arc that a lot of other fantasy works do better (i.e. GoT) but wasn't pulled off as well as it could have been IMO.

Thing is, it's been retconned into his background now and how he's represented on the tabletop. He has the most damage boxes of any human sized caster with 20 and was given Tough in Mk3 to also represent this. Dude is a survivor.

Plus there are a few non-Cryx characters that have died and only come back due to miraculous circumstances. Off the top of my head Vlad killed Harbinger simply to prevent Gaspy getting his hands on her (yes, Harbinger can come back, but Vlad didn't know that). Vlad himself got killed (interesting side note, this was a nice "fulfilling of the prophecy" moment as Vlad's death coincided with the coming of Everblight) only to be resurrected by The Old Witch.


I still stand by the claim that PP's fluff is a cartoon. Even having Vlad and the Harby come back vaporizes all of the emotional impact and weight of their deaths. It is like Duke in the GI JOE cartoon movie miraculously surviving Serpentor's snake to the chest. It robs the supposed sacrifice and makes the death meaningless if only a few pages later some hokey hand waving is done and the character pops back up.

I know why PP did this (and Hasbro did the GI JOE thing) but it doesn't make the story any less boring.

Another example: The battle of the Thornwood was fething epic! Literally, it is what introduced epic Casters to the game, with all of the factions assembling in one location to have a massive throw down. And the only casualty was Denegrha? Fething laaaaaame. Oh, I guess Captain Darius got his eye poked out by Skarre. Why she didn't slit his throat is beyond me, but you know, cartoon so can't have Captain Porta-Potty die since he is a good guy.


Well, they did kill Severius in one of the novels (Hexeris shoved that glaive he's got into the Hierarch's chest, he was administered last rites by Durant, buried in Imer), but that's one guy among... quite a few more.


That happened after my time I am afraid, PP novels weren't a thing when I played just No Quarter and the actual rule books moved the fluff. What other major Caster/Warlock characters have had a final death? Not a "oops I ded, pls bring me bak" type death?

   
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 Valander wrote:
anab0lic wrote:
Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. If they have migrated to other games it would be games with similar competitiveness/depth which have been on the rise in recent years with more and more appearing on the market, as this hobby is really growing in popularity both in terms of players and creators at a rate it never has before from what I'm seeing.
While anecdotal at best, I can say that I know several people (myself included) who used to be Warmachine/Hordes players and now play AOS and/or 40K. Like just under a dozen that I can name first-hand. And of those, very few delved into Malifaux, Guild Ball, or Infinity (which are sometimes compared as other "competitive" games). I think in some cases, it came down to being sick of the "Page 5 LOLOLOL" attitude that a lot of us saw (and for the record, most of my immediate group started Warmachine in Mk 1) continually growing in the local scene, and just said feth it.

Are GW games as 'crunchy' as others? No. But I have honestly had more fun games in AOS in the last year and change that I've been playing it than I had in the last 3 years of Warmachine while I was still playing it.


I think too many people underestimate the fun factor of a game in it's appeal. As others mentioned in this thread, it's not that AoS or 40k rules became amazing, they became good enough where the pluses from the other elements of the game made it a more appealing package. Plus GW is shooting out games at different levels of size and complexity. Talking with some of the WMH guys the other day, they're starting to talk up Shadespire. A couple have played some games and it's scratching their itches better than WMH is right now.

   
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 silent25 wrote:


I think too many people underestimate the fun factor of a game in it's appeal. As others mentioned in this thread, it's not that AoS or 40k rules became amazing, they became good enough where the pluses from the other elements of the game made it a more appealing package. Plus GW is shooting out games at different levels of size and complexity. Talking with some of the WMH guys the other day, they're starting to talk up Shadespire. A couple have played some games and it's scratching their itches better than WMH is right now.



I was actually gonna mention shadespire. I played my first game of it tonight and thought it was excellent. I'm getting my own warband as soon as I can.

As you say, the rules don't have to be 'excellent'. 'Good enough' is fine, especially when you don't treat a game as 'srs bsnss' and when other factors are positive. I can work with the rest, and I can deal with the issues if they pop up. There was a time when I wanted big, complex serious games that were a 'white knuckle ride' and got my brain working overtime. I don't necessarily want that anymore. 'Complex' can be a turn off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 23:21:41


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On the subject of SKU and model bloat, a lot of miniatures games could probably use some consolidation. If they want to eliminate a Malifaux master or some random WarmaHordes merc solo from the game, making them an official proxy for some other figure would go a long way.
   
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FLGS just got a new shipment of crucible guard and some other new minis and there were about 30 of us in their either buying, painting or playing, pretty sure the game is doing pretty good. I can believe other areas are not the same, after all there are places where AoS and 40k are still popular.
   
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 silent25 wrote:
 Valander wrote:
anab0lic wrote:
Don't agree with the notion that the new 40k and AOS has taken Warmachine players, that's like going from chess to checkers... seriously GW's games are so dumbed down and lacking depth and 'thinky-ness' in comparison they just don't scratch the same itch for that kind of hardcore gamer, most would get bored very quick. If they have migrated to other games it would be games with similar competitiveness/depth which have been on the rise in recent years with more and more appearing on the market, as this hobby is really growing in popularity both in terms of players and creators at a rate it never has before from what I'm seeing.
While anecdotal at best, I can say that I know several people (myself included) who used to be Warmachine/Hordes players and now play AOS and/or 40K. Like just under a dozen that I can name first-hand. And of those, very few delved into Malifaux, Guild Ball, or Infinity (which are sometimes compared as other "competitive" games). I think in some cases, it came down to being sick of the "Page 5 LOLOLOL" attitude that a lot of us saw (and for the record, most of my immediate group started Warmachine in Mk 1) continually growing in the local scene, and just said feth it.

Are GW games as 'crunchy' as others? No. But I have honestly had more fun games in AOS in the last year and change that I've been playing it than I had in the last 3 years of Warmachine while I was still playing it.


I think too many people underestimate the fun factor of a game in it's appeal. As others mentioned in this thread, it's not that AoS or 40k rules became amazing, they became good enough where the pluses from the other elements of the game made it a more appealing package. Plus GW is shooting out games at different levels of size and complexity. Talking with some of the WMH guys the other day, they're starting to talk up Shadespire. A couple have played some games and it's scratching their itches better than WMH is right now.



I think it depends on what makes a game fun for each person. The better the rules, the more fun I'll be having that's for sure. If I enjoyed WMH (or could afford it, really) I'd probably be playing by now. Same for 8th 40k.
   
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meatybtz wrote:
Interesting points brought up and here I am just hoping pp keeps their painta available because I have taken a serious liking to what they are doing in that department.


Good point! I've got to stock up on the colors of theirs I use just in case...

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