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Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 RiTides wrote:
I think the main "event" you may be missing is:

- Towards the end of 2nd edition certain lists were getting very broken, and some players (and even prominent podcasts) questioned balance and even switched entirely to other systems such as Guild Ball or Malifaux

- PP put out 3rd edition with little build-up or testing to address this, while claiming to have been working on it for 3 years. But glaring problems like the basic throw rules not working, or an entire faction being unplayable (Skorne) led to people doubting this.

- PP near simultaneously removed their Press Ganger program for organized play (citing legal issues with Magic judges) and removed their faction forums from their website. Effectively, the two most common ways to organize / talk about their games disappeared together.

I think PP could have overcome any one of the above, but taken together it very effectively killed the game in many local areas, mine included, while reducing its structure for bringing in new players. So, almost like GW's last Kirby-decision in killing WHFB, but without the huge investment and effort GW was prepared to put into rebuilding its player base.

As others have said, this happened while GW has really turned around and been doing basically what their fans are asking for. PP has been doing the opposite, and there are just too many good options to play instead...


I'm curious about the Magic part, but first, you do mean MTG by WoTC right? If so, did this have something to do with all the issues relating to allegations of pedophilia and other sex crimes in their judge program, or was this something else entirely?


This thread will help: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/720317.page

Basically WoTC judges were suing claiming that they were performing in the role of employees and should receive the benefits of employees. PP presumably didn't like where that case was going and axed the PG program.


Thanks! I will check it all out. But I'm not surprised this is the case. WoTC was definitely taking advantage of the compensation issues for Judges. That's partially why I stopped supporting that company a few years back.

Semi-related: But, with regards to this topic, I'm not surprised. A couple of the PP groups in my area dried up and either switched to 40K/AoS or moved on to other hobbies.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 Sqorgar wrote:
I assure you, I am not trolling, regardless of how offended it may make you. I was going to link you to a particular thread on Lormahordes, but it appears to be down at the moment. There was a thread which was literally about what to do in order to draw new players to WMH, and the general sentiment was, "feth 'em".


This one? As that is literally what is not happening in that thread. Don't make up gak to support your own narrative mateybobs.

There are a couple of players saying what you claim in that thread but the vast majority are appropriately blasting them for it.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grimtuff wrote:
 Sqorgar wrote:
I assure you, I am not trolling, regardless of how offended it may make you. I was going to link you to a particular thread on Lormahordes, but it appears to be down at the moment. There was a thread which was literally about what to do in order to draw new players to WMH, and the general sentiment was, "feth 'em".


This one? As that is literally what is not happening in that thread. Don't make up gak to support your own narrative mateybobs.

There are a couple of players saying what you claim in that thread but the vast majority are appropriately blasting them for it.
That's the thread - and I recommend anyone interested in this discussion go read it. I think there's enough of what I said going on in that thread that you can't accuse me of making anything up. For one thing, it is obvious that the people defending new players are doing so in spite of the general sentiment, not sharing in it. The OP and first few posts are people talking about how experienced players will refuse to play with newbies and why that's a bad thing.

Personally, I've never seen a thread for any other game asking what concessions the community needs to make to keep their new players from bailing. I've seen threads about how to bring in new players (if they try it, they'll love it), but never one in which new players are buying into a game, playing it, and then choosing, en masse, to not continue with it. And it ain't because WMH is a bad game.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

You said:

Sqorgar wrote:There was a thread which was literally about what to do in order to draw new players to WMH, and the general sentiment was, "feth 'em".

That is not what I'm getting from that thread at all, and it's certainly not the general sentiment of it. You're badly misrepresenting it to support your point here, imo.

As for veterans with tough lists stomping new players, it gets complained about in every game system, has personally happened to me in 40k, WHFB, and Warmahordes, and is not at all unique to any one system. (The complexity of Warmahordes does make the learning curve a lot steeper, though).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/25 02:16:27


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Byte wrote:
Just another one of my predictions come true. GW outlast and crushes all. Folks don't like it, but its just true.

I'm not a white knight just a soothsayer. i.e.40k command points, wounds for vehicles, the change of BS/WS attributes(stolen from FoW, but predicted change for GW).

I've been through so many game systems since 1995. GW is still king. Its just true. Sorry haters.




Which is all nice and fine, but until they resurrect a 'ranks and flanks' game I'm still out. Regardless of how great AoS might be, there are cheaper options for skirmish games.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






I agree that the release of a weak 3rd edition, killing the Press Ganger program and removing the forums really was the perfect storm to kill or dry up WarmaHordes in most locations including locally.

One of the other big things mentioned was the unfriendliness to new players... I have met about the same good and bad players that I do in 40k/AOS so i don't think its really the players
but the rolling combinations that new players don't know about, causing them to get curb stomped in about every game. It doesn't set well if you are a new player and needs to buy the super
special combo guys and not the figures that you like just to be able to have a chance to win a game.

 
   
Made in ca
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





London, Ontario

@ Phobos:

I was getting out of 40k around the time 3rd Edition WMH was starting. I've only ever known 3rd edition. I haven't played much, as my local store (Game Chamber, London, ON, Awesome people!) have their WMH night on Fridays and that's not in my schedule most of the time. I also kind of fell off the wagon in terms of getting my game on track. I wanted to get my army fully painted. Oddly enough, I never had that concern with 40k but there are so few models I feel slovenly not getting it all painted up.

I have no problem with losing a game. I'm that rare player that doesn't mind taking a kicking to get my skills up. I learn from losing. I'm good with it.

To be honest though... there's too much for me to learn about individual casters and their interactions to get "good" at the game, with the amount of time and effort I want to devote to it. I love the game. I mean it. I just wish my casual/competitive garage gaming buddies would get into it. I've played with them for years, and I still like the non-store experience better than the store experience.


From what I've gathered, 3rd is very different from 2nd, but that was nothing to me. I find the game is better balanced than any edition of 40k, which I like. They did end their community forum like, 2 weeks after I joined. And they ended their press ganger program which meant no more "official" support at the store level, though everyone I met was pleasant. I was able to find some "low point" games to get started, and away I went. I heard that there was a lot of community backlash, and as was noted, this was about the time that GW was getting their gak together and coming out with decent games again. (I hated 7th, with a passion!)

For me, Theme lists are essentially mini-factions or "Formations" of units that give you a strong benefit to use the limited selection. I'm all for limiting the scope of interactions if it leads to better balance, by which I mean limiting unit selections. I don't mind it, and it has given me (As a Retribution player, hooray for CID changes coming up!) 4 easy-to-follow Themes to build multiple lists around. As a newbie, I find themes to help me in learning about the game and the probable things I will encounter when facing other themes. I don't have trouble finding games, there's always a few people ready to play on Friday nights, I just have trouble getting there on Fridays.

So what I've been kind of working away at, is building and painting 4 starter boxes (WMH is Sooooo cheap to get into right now, because everyone's getting out...) of different factions so that I can start a group in my hometown to try and generate some interest in the game. There's lots of gamers around. I hope I can put on a few demo games, convince people it's fairly cheap to get into, and see if I can build a playerbase without a store. No big whoop.

I enjoy the game. I figure if I can get a few people, even a regular group of 6 or 8 people interested, I could have a game or two every other weekend at my place or someone else's, and help to shape a welcoming environment for new players in a casual/competitive environment. The benefits of being a late-30's gamer.

I hope you give it a shot, and have the opportunity to enjoy the game.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Everyone here hit on it, but the game just grew too big and people lashed back at how GW clone that it became.

In my locale, not a lot of love, and the rpg is literally falling apart on the shelves in two of the stores I go to. Too much change, the Roundtree efforts to kill the community, and too many new guys too fast killed a lot of enthusiasm to the game.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

From an outside perspective, I started playing Warhammer 40k back in 5th right as warmachine was getting big. I remember being very thankful for it because it became a weird sort of "containment zone" for a lot of the really toxic players we had in our area. The guys who would argue every rule, try to slight of hand dice, lie about abilities, something about warmachine really drew them in. There were cool guys in warmachine too, I had a couple of interesting demos with I'm assuming the local press ganger, but never felt it was for me. I remember once warmachine took off I felt like my experience with TFG's dropped quite a bit. The "play like you got a pair", whether it was intended or not, absolutely colored warmachine's player base to a degree and definitely colored outside opinion of the game. I'm not saying everyone on the planet was that way, but in my neck of the woods it was absolutely noticeable and sentiment online backed up my experience that other areas had it too.

On top of that, one of the major selling points of the game was literally "it's more balanced than 40k and meant for tournaments". When 40k started clawing its way back (note I never said fixed ) I remember seeing tons of posts from people on various forums and in stores saying warmachine's balance was suffering. When half the reason your game took off was "at least it's not 40k" and that advantage disappeared, it's going to really damage your player base.

I think this tied into other things, like less painted armies and less focus on lore. Yes those are theoretically small things but often these are key elements in drawing in fresh blood. Warmachine absolutely had a reputation of being weak in those areas and regardless of the fact that I'm sure there were casual warmachine painters and players, they were nowhere near as common as 40k, fantasy, or historical players. That goes for personal experience and from what I've seen online just way too common online to be a coincidence. I fully understand there are areas that probably had a healthy area of painters and hobbyists, but that's not what the game was known for, and from all the advertising, events, community interaction, even the main rulebook, the game came across as a hardcore experience for the most diehard competitive players. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think an earlier poster brought up an excellent point in the rise of e sports as well, as that definitely competed with the idea of warmachine. There is absolutely a market for that kind of game and it's proven lots of people like to play that way. The issue was that warmachine marketed itself as a competitive game, yet did steps that seemed to infuriate it's main tournament crowd which hurt the scene and is something they could ill afford with gw on the comeback.

I know there are warmachine players in this thread who don't like to hear that, but you have to realize that whatever your experience was, public perception still matters and when people are debating on dropping hundreds of dollars on plastic models and books that can make or break a game. Warmachine teaches an important lesson in that if you don't police your player base and take steps to curb a toxic community (or the perception that there is one) itcan and will hurt a game. Magic is dealing with it, 40k has had issues with it as long as I've played, heck even x wing had issues with it. The difference however was that X-Wing embraced the "fly casual" motto, even at top tables, meanwhile the only thing people knew warmachine for was "play like you have a pair." Fantasy Flight even embraced the "fly casual" motto, while Privateer Press never tried to distance themselves from the perception of their unintentional slogan. Justified or not, you have to be aware of these things or else you won't make it long in any business, especially not one as niche as tabletop wargames.

I'm going to catch flak for this post I'm sure, but I've called out games I love way more than this. Lord knows I have a mountain of posts critiquing 40k, the combo shenanigans X-Wing has devolved into, problems Bolt Action have, and many more. I'm just being honest here in what I've heard and experienced over the years across the USA, something that warmachine players need to be aware of if they plan on growing their game again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/25 03:45:19


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Nimble Skeleton Charioteer





Thanks everybody for taking the time to write some well thought out explanations and personal experiences.

My own experience with WMH was I purchased the 2nd edition 2 player starter boxes for both games as well as a few other models that I thought were cool looking. For some reason, the lore of the game clicked with me and drew me in. I bought a few of the army books and read them cover to cover, which is a very unusual thing for me to do. At this point, I had not even played a game or even really touched the minis, I just liked the lore and artwork.

So I was pretty excited to get to work painting them up. However, the quality of the minis I got are absolutely, hands down, the worst I have seen from any legitimate source. I could not believe how bad the mold lines were, where they were located, and how difficult it was to remove. I ended up giving up and sort of half arseing cleaning them up because it was just taking too long that I got to a point of eh, good enough. I think I ended up priming my sons Circle army and just throwing my guys in a shoebox out of disgust and frustration and putting it all at the back of my game closet where they sat until I rediscovered them all this past weekend, which got me thinking about the game again, doing some internet research and eventually creating this post.

Frankly all this talk about how deep and complex the rules are is scaring me off from the game. I really am not interested in anything like that at all. I just don't have the time or desire to deal with it. I've put enough time between the horrible mini quality and now that I can finish painting them and just live with them, but I just can't commit the time it seems this game will require. Is anyone aware of some simple, stripped down casual ruleset for the game, either official or otherwise?
   
Made in ca
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





British Columbia

Counts as AoS?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in ca
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





London, Ontario

If it's just you and a couple other people, you probably won't have that hard of a time with it, especially if you grow slow.

The game only really gets daunting when you're facing a large pool of "competitors". If you're playing casual with one or two casters that you get to know pretty well, it's less complicated then it looks. Took me about 3 games to get the major rules down.

Most of the rulebook is rules for "unusual" models. The first few games you play, don't worry about any of the slam, headbutt, throw... umm... whatever other special attacks there are. Just get comfortable with model on model combat. Roll 2d6 and add your attack skill, to match or exceed their Def stat. After that, roll 2d6 and add your Pow+Str to exceed their Armour stat. For every point you exceed, you inflict one damage point.

Infantry can either Run (double move) and do nothing, Charge (Move +3 towards an enemy) and then fight, or walk and fight / shoot. If infantry charge at least 3 inches, their damage roll is boosted (3d6 for damage)

Jacks have to spend focus, allocated from your Warcaster in order to do those things. They can also buy extra attacks (melee only) or boost attack / damage rolls.

Your casters can cast spells, using their focus.

You can pre-measure, and you should. It's a game of fractions of an inch, when it comes to positioning.

In general, a solid strategy is piece trading. You sacrifice a cheap unit to take a bigger, more expensive unit. Tit for tat, and try to score objectives while you do it.

Don't let your caster die.

That's the core rules, right there.

   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Philadelphia PA

Reading all these response the other thought that struck me is the reason Warhammer 40k kept it's momentum isn't just getting new players in - it's keeping old players to at least some degree. I know people go on and on complaining about edition changes or new prices or models, but they generally still play and from what I've seen generally pay out for the new stuff.

And I think that's because of the lore to a big extent. 40k isn't a complex or even that well written setting, but it's huge and over time more and more gets added. 18 chapters of marines, their histories and iconography, craftworlds of Eldar, huge numbers of different Guard regiments. There's just such a massive canvas that people can latch onto this or that part that they like.

Warmahordes broke ground (to me) in being a setting with some tropes but some differences at well. I started out when it was actually new (still have some of my old black and white cards) and having a setting without bow wielding elves and axe swinging dwarves, where most of the factions could be seen as both good guys and bad guys, was interesting.

Then as the game grew I think the creativity of the setting dried up, it went back to here's some elves, here's some dwarves, here's some spooky pumpkin stuff from Nightmare Before Xmas. Nothing really kept me caring about the setting.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 RiTides wrote:
You said:

Sqorgar wrote:There was a thread which was literally about what to do in order to draw new players to WMH, and the general sentiment was, "feth 'em".

That is not what I'm getting from that thread at all, and it's certainly not the general sentiment of it. You're badly misrepresenting it to support your point here, imo.

Like I said, the forum was down when I posted, so I didn't have a chance to reread the thread. My impression, reading it a few months ago, was that people weren't making headway in the "new player problem" because WMH players weren't interested in solving it. I remember multiple posters that basically said "feth 'em", and a couple posters saying, "No, feth you", but reading the thread again, I admit that "feth 'em" the general sentiment of the thread... but it is the general sentiment of the community. The thread is almost entirely people complaining about how common this attitude is! If you read through that thread and don't think WMH has a "new player problem", I don't know what to tell you.

The thread is filled with horror story after horror story about how new players are treated. Even people in that thread who think that new players are valuable tend to agree with the sentiment that everything rests on the newbie's shoulders. It is their responsibility to get good, their responsibility to take a curb stomping graciously, their responsibility to get better at the game without guidance. Here's some quotes from that thread:

Blargalicious wrote:"The aspiring competitive gamers need to be told that they will have their head handed back to them on a regular basis. They are going to lose, a lot, on a regular basis, until they can turn those losses into learning experiences. They need to figure out that they need to become good at the game in general before they can start becoming good at competitive tournament play. If they are going to play a competitive game and lose without having learned anything then they deserve the misery that comes with their misplaced grief."

dogganmguest wrote:"So, I've now seen:

Don't like the way that themes have infested the game? Leave.
Don't want to play 75 point steamrollers on a deathclock every time? Leave.
Don't want to play list-of-the-month or get completely run into the ground? Leave.

Ladies and gentlemen: the welcoming and inclusive Warmachine community.

Provengreil wrote:"I have a friend who went to his local club to try out warmachine after I told him I was buying into it. He bought a starter set, asked for a few battlebox level games (MK 2, so ~10-15 points I think it was) and he got turn 2'd three times since he didn't really understand the game. When he asked for help, their apparent response was "page 5, man"."

sirbrokensword wrote:Yes, if they are unhappy with playing good players with strong lists they should find a game that doesn't care about competition and leave the rest of us to play the game we want. There's lots of those wargames out there, theres only one warmachine.

Walden wrote:So In my meta we exclusively play 75 pt lists, except with absolute newbies who have small model collections. For them we set a specific time to play them. If they come to a game night usually it is to play 75pt steamroller format.

Cygnarstronk wrote:You don't get stomped, you don't get good. I've got a frined who alsways stomps me, better lists and better player, but i don't back down. If you only want to play "fair and balanced" you don't get the game, it isn't fair and it isn't balanced. List chicken is real, player gap is real, and if a newbie doesn't respect it and ackwnoledge the situation he is gonna leave the game sooner or rather. He is gonna step out of his protective bubble sooner or later, and it is better to do that soon.

"feth 'em"
   
Made in us
Revenant Pirate Crew






Oh, another thing that’s made me lose a lot of interest is they changed how the release the fluff and stories. You used to get the anthology books that would have stories from the point of view of each faction and what they were up to. They stopped doing those and mostly just do the novels now, and nearly everything is from the point of view or Cygnar. Nothing from my primary faction, Cryx, for years now. Nothing to keep me invested in the story.

 
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







 Byte wrote:
Just another one of my predictions come true. GW outlast and crushes all. Folks don't like it, but its just true.

I'm not a white knight just a soothsayer. i.e.40k command points, wounds for vehicles, the change of BS/WS attributes(stolen from FoW, but predicted change for GW).

I've been through so many game systems since 1995. GW is still king. Its just true. Sorry haters.


The only winning move is not to play.

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







Interesting that the dive seems so universal. It was big at one store here and I played a game or 2 back in Mk2 - seemed to me that the armies were about the size I wanted to commit to. There were frequent events and it was much stronger than 40K which saw only occasional old timer games.

Then they cut the pressganger program, and it literally vanished instantly, or so it seemed to me.
   
Made in si
Steady Stonecleaver







I dropped out mid-2nd edition when the local scene was taken over by page 5 tryhards and I simultaneously realized my faction hasn't had a new model in 2 years.

Posters on ignore list: 33

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Made in us
Glorious Grot Banna Wava




Yeah, I'm dealing with the collapse of WMH in my various other game groups. WMH provided a really great quarantine area for all the competitive douchenozzle players with its bro-tastic "PLAY LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR" advertising and "page 5 bruh" attitude, and when it was at its peak all you had to do to never have to deal with the dozen or so total jerks in the area was not show up on WMH night, and fend off the occasional foray into other gaming groups from one of the guys trying to get people to play a "real game."

Now the game has gone onto the discount shelf in every game store I know of in the area, and while most of them are thankfully still so blindly bitter towards Games Workshop that they won't play 40k, my attempts to get together a small group to play Necromunda, join in a local Blood Bowl group, or check out how Malifaux is doing these days have caused me to run into a number of annoyingly familiar faces from the old days using the same kind of tactics to win I remember from my old days starting to play 40k.

In my necromunda group, one of the guys joined in and found out that you get more "reputation points" (ie victory points for winning the campaign) if you win a mission with a smaller-value gang than your opponent. You're also much more likely to be able to choose what mission you want to play. So he set up his gang as a single heavy weapons guy with a heavy bolter, and a naked commander with no weapons at all but a special ability that let him re-activate a guy who's already taken his turn.

Every time he got to choose the mission, he'd pick one mission where he was trying to destroy some object in the enemy deployment zone. He'd set up his heavy bolter, double-activate it, and kill the object with his first activation, scoring a ton of Rep points. Any mission he didn't get to choose, he'd just say "I concede, you get the points, now let's roll again to see who picks."

Needless to say, he "won" the campaign after two days, so now he's done and we're all continuing to play to "see who gets second place."
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

In my necromunda group, one of the guys joined in and found out that you get more "reputation points" (ie victory points for winning the campaign) if you win a mission with a smaller-value gang than your opponent. You're also much more likely to be able to choose what mission you want to play. So he set up his gang as a single heavy weapons guy with a heavy bolter, and a naked commander with no weapons at all but a special ability that let him re-activate a guy who's already taken his turn.

Every time he got to choose the mission, he'd pick one mission where he was trying to destroy some object in the enemy deployment zone. He'd set up his heavy bolter, double-activate it, and kill the object with his first activation, scoring a ton of Rep points. Any mission he didn't get to choose, he'd just say "I concede, you get the points, now let's roll again to see who picks."

Needless to say, he "won" the campaign after two days, so now he's done and we're all continuing to play to "see who gets second place."


Amazing stuff. Im at a loss to fathom what glint of satisfaction he could glean from such banality.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Wow he really did not get the point of Necromunda.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Baltimore, MD

 kestral wrote:
Interesting that the dive seems so universal. It was big at one store here and I played a game or 2 back in Mk2 - seemed to me that the armies were about the size I wanted to commit to. There were frequent events and it was much stronger than 40K which saw only occasional old timer games.

Then they cut the pressganger program, and it literally vanished instantly, or so it seemed to me.


Yeah, it collapsed fast and hard. Some areas that had really strong groups kept having successful events, but stores that used to be packed for a WMH event now have ample room.

The game has two main problems: attracting new players, and keeping the old ones. New players face arguably the harshest learning curve in mainstream hobby gaming, and while some areas were good about cultivating new players, others were not. WMH is somewhat unique in that a caster kill ends the game, so new players can not only lose hard, but fast. Turn two losses are very common, while even the most lopsided 40k game usually goes four turns. Pressgangers did a lot of the grunt work of bringing in new players. They ran demos, usually ran smaller events or journeymen leagues, and usually helped new players find games. Ending that program had huge consequences.

As for keeping old players, the causes are bit more obscure. Mark3 was clearly the tipping point for a lot of people (I've yet to play a game under Mk3), but clearly the disgruntlement was building before that. It's easy to say that PP went down the GW path, but there are some interesting parallels. There was overt power creep throughout MK2, with colossals really changing the meta in some strong ways. The newer models were high cost for a mixed bag of sculpt quality and production value. I think that the game was getting less fun in late MK2, with many games being brutal slogs. The focus on tournament play, coupled with the expanding scope of the game, made keeping up expensive and taxing. Basically, "getting good" at WMH took a lot of effort. The people that I saw drop away the fastest were the middles class of gamers: the guys that went 2-2 at events. The game isn't fun enough to play when mediocre, and too time intensive to become better at.

Finally, the last five years or more have seen a real blossoming of mainstream choice in hobby gaming. When WMH stumbled, games like guildball, x-wing, infinity, kings of War, and malifaux were there with wide distribution and fan bases. When PP didn't immediately right the ship, the eventual development of AOS and relase of 40k 8th edition really kept them from recovering.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 11,000pts
Cygnar: 350pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Atlanta, GA

the_scotsman wrote:
WMH provided a really great quarantine area for all the competitive douchenozzle players with its bro-tastic "PLAY LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR" advertising and "page 5 bruh" attitude, and when it was at its peak all you had to do to never have to deal with the dozen or so total jerks in the area was not show up on WMH night...


I'm about 99% sure that this was meant as tongue-in-cheek advertising in an attempt to make some digs at GW - Privateer Press also had something in their original ads about the game being "Full Metal Fantasy" and how pewter is awesome and not wussy plastic like those "other" miniature games out there. Unfortunately, gamers being what they are, all of that went straight over most people's heads and all they read was "Play like a d-bag and stomp anybody who tries to beat you!". Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I've always seen Page 5 more as a "play your best game and be a good opponent" thing, though obviously PP took it up to 11 with the wording. There's a reason that Page 5 no longer exists in any of the books: because they realized that all it was doing is creating toxic attitudes and bros who saw it as an excuse to be jerks.

All that said, I personally stopped playing for several reasons.

1) I didn't have the time to devote to it anymore. Meaning that in order to get better at the game, you have to play it a LOT. Once a month won't cut it, and I didn't have the time or the inclination to study up on rules interactions in my spare time.

2) PP's insane insistence on sticking with pvc plastic(restic) for a lot of their sculpts. The hard plastic warjacks are fine. The resin and the pewter is fine. Anything restic is an unpleasant nightmare to clean. Painting and hobbying take precedence over playing for me, so by keeping a lot of their releases in pvc they've effectively eliminated the larger part of what I enjoy doing.

3) The CID cycle. I've heard that it helps improve the game by adjusting things to better fit with themes, etc. To me, it feels like perpetual playtesting, and again, I have no time to keep up with it.

4) Themes. I don't like them. Much like formations at the end of 7th edition, giving out free points/models as an incentive to stick to a theme means that if you're not playing in theme, you're effectively handicapping yourself. Not a fan.

I sold off a full Circle army and have no regrets about it. Keeping my Khador for now, just as an option, but for now I'm happy playing 40k.
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I would say AoS is a direct response to Warmachine. An attempt to make a skirmish game that focuses on heroes and big monsters with supporting infantry, where rules are present on cards and everyone has synergistic special abilities. It has a very "Warmachine" feel from that direction. What they did was strip out the competitive aspects, at least at first, and generally keep it a bit more loosey goosey, while also having better miniatures (if you like the aesthetics).

It seems to have worked, if the relative vibrancy of the two online communities are anything to go by. But it seems to me that AoS is potentially vulnerable to the same out of control bloat that killed the fun in Warmachine in the end. Once you hit a critical mass of complexity, it becomes difficult for novices to join.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Sqorgar, such horror stories can apply to any game, and if those are the worst quotes you can find in that thread (while literally cherry picking for them out of pages and pages) it, again, doesn’t back up your sweeping statements. I can tell you you’d find Much worse in a random 40k newbie thread on Dakka lol .

Anyway, I guess we’ll agree to disagree, but I’m glad you can at least admit that the “general sentiment” of the thread does not match what you thought.

Just FYI, I stopped playing Warmachine in Mk3 myself, but it isn’t because of anything to do with the community - I had an absolutely Awesome one! It was the company and their handling of the game, like Kirby did with GW, until they finally came to their senses. I’ll be happy to come back if they make a similar turn toward customer-friendliness like GW has, too

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/25 13:11:23


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Da Boss wrote:
Wow he really did not get the point of Necromunda.
No kidding.

"Competitive Necromunda" isn't even a phrase that should exist.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Baltimore, MD

 RiTides wrote:
Sqorgar, such horror stories can apply to any game, and if those are the worst quotes you can find in that thread (while literally cherry picking for them out of pages and pages) it, again, doesn’t back up your sweeping statements. I can tell you you’d find Much worse in a random 40k newbie thread on Dakka lol .

Anyway, I guess we’ll agree to disagree, but I’m glad you can at least admit that the “general sentiment” of the thread does not match what you thought.

Just FYI, I stopped playing Warmachine in Mk3 myself, but it isn’t because of anything to do with the community - I had an absolutely Awesome one! It was the company and their handling of the game, like Kirby did with GW, until they finally came to their senses. I’ll be happy to come back if they make a similar turn toward customer-friendliness like GW has, too


I think you can find aggressive, overly competitive types in any game, but they were always going to be more common in WMH because it was simply designed for them. Even in local shops, most players are focused on competitive play, rankings, and "the meta." Even if you took the exact same personalities, WMH is so unforgiving that it cannot be simply taught. Well, you can teach the basic rules, but you can't teach somebody to be a good player. That takes experience and time spent learning what basically every caster and most units can do.

Contrast that with 40k, which not only offers and encourages casual play, but it's also pretty simple to learn. A competent WMH player could be a competitive 40k player in probably less than six months. Pick a good army, learn to play it, learn what the other good armies do, and get some quick experience with things like target priority. A competent 40k player would need much, much longer to become a competitive WMH player.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 11,000pts
Cygnar: 350pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






Overly competitive is one thing. Poor sports are another.

I’ve absolutely no problem with not only getting my head kicked, but my teeth knocked out during a game, if my opponent is fun to play, and offers tips and pointers after a proper beatdown. Or explains (once in position) why what they just did worked so well.

And that ain’t the game that needs to do that, but the player base. 40k, AoS, 9th Age, Warmahordes, X-Wing, Infinity, Malifaux. All of them. They need a good part of the community to be welcoming to newcomers, and help get them up to speed. And people feel the game itself encourages NooB Stomping, they’re wrong.

Even the infamous Page 5. Its ‘play like you gotta pair’. Not ‘be a total Richard all the time, every time’.

Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
Made in us
Glorious Grot Banna Wava




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Overly competitive is one thing. Poor sports are another.

I’ve absolutely no problem with not only getting my head kicked, but my teeth knocked out during a game, if my opponent is fun to play, and offers tips and pointers after a proper beatdown. Or explains (once in position) why what they just did worked so well.

And that ain’t the game that needs to do that, but the player base. 40k, AoS, 9th Age, Warmahordes, X-Wing, Infinity, Malifaux. All of them. They need a good part of the community to be welcoming to newcomers, and help get them up to speed. And people feel the game itself encourages NooB Stomping, they’re wrong.

Even the infamous Page 5. Its ‘play like you gotta pair’. Not ‘be a total Richard all the time, every time’.


It may not actively discourage new players, but it's got all the strikes against it. High investment, complex ruleset, and a focus on competitive play coming from the parent company.

That's going to both attract TFGs and discourage newbies trying to get in. 40k has all the strikes except the last one.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 RiTides wrote:
Sqorgar, such horror stories can apply to any game, and if those are the worst quotes you can find in that thread (while literally cherry picking for them out of pages and pages) it, again, doesn’t back up your sweeping statements. I can tell you you’d find Much worse in a random 40k newbie thread on Dakka lol .

Anyway, I guess we’ll agree to disagree, but I’m glad you can at least admit that the “general sentiment” of the thread does not match what you thought.

Just FYI, I stopped playing Warmachine in Mk3 myself, but it isn’t because of anything to do with the community - I had an absolutely Awesome one! It was the company and their handling of the game, like Kirby did with GW, until they finally came to their senses. I’ll be happy to come back if they make a similar turn toward customer-friendliness like GW has, too



I was interested, so I went and had a look at that thread. I have to say it confirmed what Sqorgar said. Sure, it wasn't a constant stream of "git gud newb!" comments but the general attitude of a significant minority of people on that thread swung between toxic and sociopathic. It reflects a lot of the comments people make locally about WM/H. As such, I think it's fair to say WM/H at the very least has a problem with how the community is perceived, and may have a problem with the community itself in many areas.

I think part of the problem the game is having is that I'm not sure it was ever quite as popular as the players made it out to be. As such, any drop in player numbers has a significantly greater effect on the popularity of the game. Where I'm based, in Scotland, WM/H was never that popular but even in the most "vibrant" communities in England the numbers always seemed to be significantly smaller than 40k or X-Wing. I think that's just amplified the problems that PP's recent mistakes have caused.
   
 
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