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 Da Boss wrote:
I would say AoS is a direct response to Warmachine.

I kind of agree with this; but what really didn't help WHFB was the fact most unit box sets were average $40 each and you need 10+ of them for a starter army..
Then wonder why they couldn't get new players.

Warmahordes simply didn't take off in my area. A few of the complaints I heard was that it was easy to exploit the hell out of the mechanics and just make every battle the same kind of 'screen' game. That, and the materials and bases were a pain to deal with.

Can't confirm myself, I saw the models and wanted nothing to do with it.

It didn't help that about half of the models are kind of hideous Warcraft-esque abominations.

Anecdotally, what put me off WMH was the ‘kill the caster’ mechanic.

Whilst I never played all that many games, I found those I did very ‘samey’, with everyone having the same single strategy.

Not saying that’s an inherent flaw, it just didn’t appeal to me at all.

The V3 release really hit Warmachine really hard. V2 was getting bloated and needed a fix but it was a critical time and V3 was painfully under play tested. The new model they have for fixes and releases seems to have fixed that. If they'd repeated the V2 release format then V3 probably would have been ok.

I think that the comedically bad pricing for plastic miniatures is what continues to hurt them. This was always all over the place but the swing in the value of the £ sent it over the edge.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anecdotally, what put me off WMH was the ‘kill the caster’ mechanic.

Whilst I never played all that many games, I found those I did very ‘samey’, with everyone having the same single strategy.

Not saying that’s an inherent flaw, it just didn’t appeal to me at all.

Do you not like Chess either? Do you not like playing Undead in WHFB?

 Mr. Grey wrote:


I'm about 99% sure that this was meant as tongue-in-cheek advertising in an attempt to make some digs at GW - Privateer Press also had something in their original ads about the game being "Full Metal Fantasy" and how pewter is awesome and not wussy plastic like those "other" miniature games out there. Unfortunately, gamers being what they are, all of that went straight over most people's heads and all they read was "Play like a d-bag and stomp anybody who tries to beat you!". Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I've always seen Page 5 more as a "play your best game and be a good opponent" thing, though obviously PP took it up to 11 with the wording. There's a reason that Page 5 no longer exists in any of the books: because they realized that all it was doing is creating toxic attitudes and bros who saw it as an excuse to be jerks.

It absolutely was tongue in cheek (though you would not think that from the amount of people that claim to have "read" it ) It was a swipe at the big dog. PP were the counterculture at the time and this was their mission statement, it was to tell you this game pulled no punches (unlike the other game that shall not be mentioned. ) though some people took it seriously, because they're quite clearly being serious when they said they're going to deplete the world of pewter by 2008 and murder your grandmother with their newly spike-covered reinvented wheel...

Around here it had a strong following, IIRC most of the local players were also Press Gangers, but it was mostly killed off by the one store who sold it no longer wanting to support it and V3 happening.

I tried to play it myself and good balance aside, it was in my eyes very newbie unfriendly, it certainly didn't help that my introduction to the game was starter boxes, my Khador against Cryx, during which I got thoroughly tabled every game without landing a single blow while being told it was part of learning the game.

 BrookM wrote:


I tried to play it myself and good balance aside, it was in my eyes very newbie unfriendly, it certainly didn't help that my introduction to the game was starter boxes, my Khador against Cryx, during which I got thoroughly tabled every game without landing a single blow while being told it was part of learning the game.

If you played against Denny1 then shes not exactly a fun game for experienced players, let alone newbies.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BrookM wrote:


I tried to play it myself and good balance aside, it was in my eyes very newbie unfriendly, it certainly didn't help that my introduction to the game was starter boxes, my Khador against Cryx, during which I got thoroughly tabled every game without landing a single blow while being told it was part of learning the game.

If you played against Denny1 then shes not exactly a fun game for experienced players, let alone newbies.

Corrosion scarred me for life.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BrookM wrote:


I tried to play it myself and good balance aside, it was in my eyes very newbie unfriendly, it certainly didn't help that my introduction to the game was starter boxes, my Khador against Cryx, during which I got thoroughly tabled every game without landing a single blow while being told it was part of learning the game.

If you played against Denny1 then shes not exactly a fun game for experienced players, let alone newbies.

This pretty much encompasses the attitude our local group had towards the game. I hear pretty much similar stuff in most competitive tabletop groups: lots of self-deprecation about how much of a big jerk they're being for playing this thing, everyone agrees they're a jerk...then they just go ahead and play it and make everyone have a gakky experience.

it definitely exists in 40k, but at least in 8th, the GW response to a lot of these wonky/fun-ruining type tactics has been to smash the units involved with a giant nerfbat and just invalidate the investment of the people who bought, say, 250 dollars of Razorwings to run their "Dark Eldar" army. The WMH/MTG response is usually to release a counter-unit to defeat the ridiculous strategy in kind of a clever/gamey way, which encourages the powergamey tactic to ease out of the meta via further powergaming and people figuring it out.

which is great for people who are immersed in the competitive meta, follow it, learn the counters, etc, but works terribly for casual/infrequent players who aren't interested in the competitive meta, or new players.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BrookM wrote:


I tried to play it myself and good balance aside, it was in my eyes very newbie unfriendly, it certainly didn't help that my introduction to the game was starter boxes, my Khador against Cryx, during which I got thoroughly tabled every game without landing a single blow while being told it was part of learning the game.

If you played against Denny1 then shes not exactly a fun game for experienced players, let alone newbies.

This pretty much encompasses the attitude our local group had towards the game. I hear pretty much similar stuff in most competitive tabletop groups: lots of self-deprecation about how much of a big jerk they're being for playing this thing, everyone agrees they're a jerk...then they just go ahead and play it and make everyone have a gakky experience.

That's some damn fine twisting of my words there. I was simply stating a fact, Denny1 (especially in Mk2 and early Mk3) is somewhat antisocial to play against, there is a reason she's not in the starter anymore and anyone who's even rudimentarily familiar with WMH knows this. It wasn't a calling card for a license to be a bellend. Denny1 is pretty much a hard counter to Khador as she bypasses two of the biggest things Khador rely on- Their armour and the fact their casters have no built-in knockdown protection (save a scant few) . BrookM walked into pretty much the worst first game of WMH you could have IMO and that was what was being referenced.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Overly competitive is one thing. Poor sports are another.

I’ve absolutely no problem with not only getting my head kicked, but my teeth knocked out during a game, if my opponent is fun to play, and offers tips and pointers after a proper beatdown. Or explains (once in position) why what they just did worked so well.

And that ain’t the game that needs to do that, but the player base. 40k, AoS, 9th Age, Warmahordes, X-Wing, Infinity, Malifaux. All of them. They need a good part of the community to be welcoming to newcomers, and help get them up to speed. And people feel the game itself encourages NooB Stomping, they’re wrong.

Even the infamous Page 5. Its ‘play like you gotta pair’. Not ‘be a total Richard all the time, every time’.

Agreed. But regarding the original Page 5, too many people did interpret it as "be a total Richard all the time, every time" to the point that the company essentially had to intervene by re-writing that page in later editions and back tracking hard from the tone and intent of the original. Which is good, the original was pretty toxic in hindsight, though at the time it did add to the rebellious feel of the game.

 George Spiggott wrote:
The V3 release really hit Warmachine really hard. V2 was getting bloated and needed a fix but it was a critical time and V3 was painfully under play tested. The new model they have for fixes and releases seems to have fixed that. If they'd repeated the V2 release format then V3 probably would have been ok.

I think that the comedically bad pricing for plastic miniatures is what continues to hurt them. This was always all over the place but the swing in the value of the £ sent it over the edge.

This is my reason for quitting. I decided to quit near the end of MKII. I spent a few hundred to get into it during MKIII with a new faction but the plastic boxes price change was noticeable.

@ Stevefamine: Interesting. I was actually taking about how they were almost randomly priced because their price was linked to the exchange rate when they were released. The price difference between different Circle Orboros Griffons are a good example of this. I didn't realise the problem extended to the home market (USA) as well. There's also the issue of large resin releases being special order/import only.

There have been a few too many warcaster/warlock releases that invite spam lists for my tastes as well. This was also a problem at the tail end of MKII. It may get fixed in the next couple of months with the upcoming Circle CID.

I haven't quit, although I haven't played in ages. I'm trimming down to one faction (from effectively five) and following events. That has become more difficult since PP shredded their forums.

Probably worth a separate thread but do people think the Facebook/social media trend with PP (and several other manufacturers) is helping or hindering the hobby?

 Sqorgar wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Sqorgar wrote:WMH, both the game and the community, was outright hostile to new players to the point where a new player that stuck around for more than a month or two was as common as a unicorn.

That's very close to trolling. WMH is a hard, unforgiving game. When the game was smaller, this represented a manageable, but appealing challenge. You earned your wins.

But to say the community is 'outright hostile' to new players? No sir. As a (lapsed) member of that community, and on behalf of my friends that still play, I find this comment appallingly rude and condescending. Some of the nicest people I've gotten to know through gaming play or played warmachine. Now fine, there are trolls that play WMH and go about noobstalking. I know some. Thing is, those same trolls play other Wargames and stalk noobs there too. It's not a WMH thing. It's a gakky gamer thing. Equating that to WMH is inaccurate, misleading, and just really rubbish behaviour on your part. Please don't. Please, don't tar a whole community as TFGs.

I assure you, I am not trolling, regardless of how offended it may make you. I was going to link you to a particular thread on Lormahordes, but it appears to be down at the moment. There was a thread which was literally about what to do in order to draw new players to WMH, and the general sentiment was, "feth 'em".

Sure, there were one or two posters who were saying, "Without new players, our game will eventually die", but generally speaking, the response was, "why should I change how I play just to let some newbies win? I had to learn the hard way, so should they. After they lose their 30th tournment-style match in a row, they'll have gained valuable experience needed to play the game at a somewhat competent level." They literally shouted down someone suggesting that they play smaller point games and play inefficient lists to give new players a chance to actually play the game instead of being curb stomped in the second round.

The WMH community is absolutely the most anti-newbie community I have ever seen in my life, across all games, genres, and hobbies. I don't even blame the game itself, though it does have a learning curve. I think WMH can be played narratively or casually, but the community doesn't allow it. They don't make the game look good, they don't make it fun to play, they don't make it fun to belong, they don't make it easy to follow, and they don't allow for any variation in how others are allowed to enjoy it.

That's why WMH is dying but GW survived much worse sins. GW was always bringing in new players and making them feel special and like they belonged, while WMH players were telling them that "you'll lose the first 20 games you play (and won't have fun for most of them), but eventually, I'll bother playing you once you 'git gud' with your two tournament armies"

beast_gts wrote:
I bought the Khador Battlegroup box after playing a demo game at a con. Built & painted it, then got turned down for a game by a dozen different players across three clubs because I was a noob. Just because Deadnight and my experiences are different to yours doesn't mean we're trolling.

And I'll bet you money that the vast majority of them didn't have a single painted model.

I liked the game for the "git gud" aspect, but yes, Warmahordes (as a general concept) was extremely unforgiving, and playing to win was all that mattered for many in that game.

My breaking point came during a steamroller where I lost 3rd place because my opponent did half a turn of illegal moves for a WC kill. When I called the TO over and showed him what happened, his response was "well, can't take back moves, sorry!" Like moving two models back 7" would have been difficult....

The community, as a whole, never was very newbie friendly. Even when I started, with Skorne in MK2, people would play me with the meanest, nastiest thing they could and pummel me over and over... it wasn't much fun, and yes I did get much better, but for a lot of people the steep curve and Dark Souls punishing games are too much.

My breaking point came during a steamroller where I lost 3rd place because my opponent did half a turn of illegal moves for a WC kill. When I called the TO over and showed him what happened, his response was "well, can't take back moves, sorry!" Like moving two models back 7" would have been difficult....

The community, as a whole, never was very newbie friendly. Even when I started, with Skorne in MK2, people would play me with the meanest, nastiest thing they could and pummel me over and over... it wasn't much fun, and yes I did get much better, but for a lot of people the steep curve and Dark Souls punishing games are too much.

That TO was absolutely 100% in the wrong on that ruling. No idea why he wasn't willing to rule in your favor, especially when it comes to making a bunch of illegal moves. Sorry you had to deal with that.

Re: "the community" - I keep seeing people making statements like yours about how very unfriendly the community is to newbies, but I think this depends entirely on your local groups/game stores. In my area here there have never been issues like this that I've noticed, and our biggest store runs frequent Slow Grow leagues to get more people into the game. Even the top tier players were always willing to play against someone new and give them games at lower levels. All that said, the game has a VERY steep learning curve, and unless you're willing to put in a lot of time and effort, you *will* end up losing a lot of games until you get better.

 Polonius wrote:
Finally, the last five years or more have seen a real blossoming of mainstream choice in hobby gaming. When WMH stumbled, games like guildball, x-wing, infinity, kings of War, and malifaux were there with wide distribution and fan bases. When PP didn't immediately right the ship, the eventual development of AOS and relase of 40k 8th edition really kept them from recovering.

When GW can hand s rank newbie a single sheet of paper containing ALL of the AoS rules, that's a pretty strong bonus in terms of being able to get them to try the game. Who can't play that?

OTOH, when the most honest and earnest Press Ganger tells someone that their game is this much larger pile of rules, and BTW you're gonna get brutally curbstomped for the first few months, with barely any chance to learn anything from those turn 2 kills, it's not hard to go back to the AoS and start there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Do you not like Chess either? Do you not like playing Undead in WHFB?

Pretty sure it's almost impossible for a halfway attentive Chess player to lose on Turn 2. OTOH, WFB 5/6, it was possible for DoW and Undead to lose before the first turn, and no, people didn't like that.

The meta was also quite daunting yeah, I remember Press Gangers lamenting that certain games were just unwinnable because of certain caster match ups.

I really like the warmahordes universe, and the models, but the game didn't seem to last in my group, and people were starting to play it right when I moved and stopped playing with them as often... so I ended up never really getting into it too heavily. I had a Skorne army that I bought, painted and sold, and then a Khador army that I bought, kinda painted, then forgot about.

I didn't realize it was struggling though.. they seem to have a bunch of cool new steady releases, so they must still be doing well enough?

I guess maybe I just have an awesome utopia of a local meta lol as I never experienced any of these negatives for the most part. It was so much fun at the height of Mk2...

 Necros wrote:
they seem to have a bunch of cool new steady releases, so they must still be doing well enough?

I won't lie, Skarre 3 on the giant wreck of a ship had me reaching for my wallet. That is just a gorgeous model in my opinion. I hear it is a tough build and I ultimately decided not to buy because the initial release had QC problems, but it is one I'd like to eventually add to my aging Cryx collection.

1. People finally woke up and realized that all of the assertions being made about “better rules”, “more balanced game play”, “cheaper models”, “more customer focused company” etc. were all false.

2. The community basically ate itself alive. The toxicity got to be so bad that people (players, organizers, community leaders, etc.) just walked away. The online community disbanded and I know of four areas, each separated by 50+ miles, where the PP community collapsed under the weight of its own vitriol.

Some of my fondest memories...

I once had a Press Ganger do a Warmahine demo with me and the whole time he only trashed GW and W40K. When I asked “What sets this game apart from W40K?”, he said nothing about Warmachine or or PP, he only continued to trash GW and W40K. I was so disgusted that I cut him off mid-sentence and explained to him that his approach to recruiting players is deplorable.

Here’s another great Press Ganger interaction story… I was visiting my home town (~150 miles away from where I had the wonderful demo game mentioned above) and stopped by the LGS. Well wouldn’t you know it, the local Press Ganger was there and after I purchased something W40K related the Press Ganger chimes in “You should just toss that in the trash and learn how to play a real game.”

Sadly, my experiences with the player base isn't any better.

Here's my problem with posts like oni's above, though:

It sounds like you have never liked Warmahordes, especially with your point #1 and the "fondest memories" you listed. While the community did disband in many areas (including mine), it's not because of "toxicity". I listed the "perfect storm" of events that happened that caused a huge drop in players for Warmahordes earlier, and a lot of posters in this thread echoed it:

 RiTides wrote:
I think the main "event" you may be missing is:

- Towards the end of 2nd edition certain lists were getting very broken, and some players (and even prominent podcasts) questioned balance and even switched entirely to other systems such as Guild Ball or Malifaux

- PP put out 3rd edition with little build-up or testing to address this, while claiming to have been working on it for 3 years. But glaring problems like the basic throw rules not working, or an entire faction being unplayable (Skorne) led to people doubting this.

- PP near simultaneously removed their Press Ganger program for organized play (citing legal issues with Magic judges) and removed their faction forums from their website. Effectively, the two most common ways to organize / talk about their games disappeared together.

I think PP could have overcome any one of the above, but taken together it very effectively killed the game in many local areas, mine included, while reducing its structure for bringing in new players. So, almost like GW's last Kirby-decision in killing WHFB, but without the huge investment and effort GW was prepared to put into rebuilding its player base.

As others have said, this happened while GW has really turned around and been doing basically what their fans are asking for. PP has been doing the opposite, and there are just too many good options to play instead...

Some of you, imo, are just piling on and listing all the things you don't like about Warmahordes / PP. And while some of your points have merit, that is Not (imo) what happened to it. Rather, what happened is what's in my quote above... a terrible convergence of bad decisions on the company's part, and bad timing, which led to a lot of players leaving and finding other games to play.

The really hard thing is rebuilding a community, especially with all the home runs GW is hitting recently. I have heard MK3 is quite good now, but all my local group (including myself) have moved on to other games...

Eh, ... why not both? PP made some poor decisions. Some communities imploded.

I agree that the people saying Warmachine was cheaper than GW were just wrong - the models are similarly priced and often of poorer quality. I love some of them, like the Dire Troll Mauler and the Earthborn and Mulg, but others in the same range are terrible, with awful proportions and no consistency.
The GAME could be cheaper, but on a model by model basis GW was often cheaper than PP.

But the rules were more balanced, at least up to the middle of Mk2 when I stopped playing. Far more balanced than almost any set of rules GW had ever put out, only the Ravening Hordes period was as balanced. This was because of the strategy of updating all factions simultaneously. As I understand it, this sort of fell by the wayside, and now due to the games overabundance of factions and minis within those factions the balance is apparently not as good. But for a long time it was pretty good. There were some lists that had an edge, but you could give it a good go with any list and win. And most of the time with rare exceptions, every faction had one of the "power lists" with the hard edge, so you could play whatever faction you liked at the top tier. I played a fairly non-standard Troll list (didn't use a Krielstone for example) and I did win a tournament using it. Compared to my travails through three editions of 40K bringing Orks to tournaments, that was a real breath of fresh air. GW has some golden boy favourites who always get treated well and some neglected stepchildren who always get the gakky end of the stick, and in some cases get entirely written out of the game.

That said, it is undeniable from what people are saying here that it was not very newbie friendly in many ways. Some of this is just down to the complexity and learning curve, but there was also a tendency to a certain mentality among players.

40K has a wider appeal I think, and certainly appeals more to casual gamers and less to the tournament crowd. PP was chasing the tournament folk, and that has an effect on the overall community. That is not to say that there are not extremely welcoming and chilled out groups, but the general tendency is not in that direction.

It is a shame that the game has died. It was a lot of fun, and especially for a tournament or whatever, it was a well designed game. I had a lot of fun playing it and introduced it to my entire friend group, some of whom are still really into it to this day. I wouldn't mind picking it back up, but it seems like the local scene is completely dead.

 Da Boss wrote:
I agree that the people saying Warmachine was cheaper than GW were just wrong - the models are similarly priced and often of poorer quality. I love some of them, like the Dire Troll Mauler and the Earthborn and Mulg

Those are still my 3 favorite models of the range (in metal) and the ones I started with

JohnHwangDD - You're right of course, it can always be a mix, and Warmahordes has always had some of the weaknesses people are pointing out in this thread. But the question was "What happened?". As obviously, it was doing pretty well despite its shortcomings, until suddenly it wasn't. And I think that has more to do with the events I listed above, rather than the more general dislikes people are posting about the game (imo, of course).

I basically put a list together of the models I liked, made one or two concessions to synergy, but apart from that it was just stuff I liked the look of. And once I learned how to use it, I could compete in tournaments. That is rarely true with GW.

Regarding costs, it may be a North America vs Europe thing. WMH is much, much cheaper to buy into in my experience, particularly startup costs.

In Ontario, Canada, I can buy a battle box for $45 (CAD) This includes about 30 points of Jacks, and a Warcaster. This also includes the unit cards (also available for free, online) as well as a hard copy of the rules (also available for free, online). This gets you started at a "0" point game, which sounds weird, but there you go. If you buy a second starter box, you'd have a 30/75 points for a full-sized army, for $90.

Now, admittedly, things get pricier. A couple of 10 dude boxes, with attachments, is going to add about $130, depending on what you're after. Another heavy Jack will be $35. Let's say 4 more solos will tack about $70 on. So your first, full, playable at a tournament army will cost about $325 for models and rules. Many factions have some reusable parts between themes, so making a second list that reuses some / most of the Jacks might tack another $200 on. So for about $500 to $600 you have the rules and models to attend a 2-list Steamroller. That's new, off the shelf pricing at my FLGS. Not all factions can do that. There are factions, similar to Forge World, that are more expensive to play.

Compared to $70 for the 40k rule book and $50 for a codex, totalling $120.

Start collecting boxes are $100 each. I'm guessing about 400 points in the box? I am taking an uneducated guess. Add to that 5 more boxes at $60 each and you've spent $620 to buy the models and rules for one 1500 point army with no swap-outs.

WMH is cheaper to play, with more variety, in Ontario, Canada.

So I started playing at the beginning of the game after it was shown at gen-con. I never thought of it as better than the GW games I played just another game to enjoy. Which I did until the middle of Mk2.. I stopped enjoying the mechanics at that point and quit playing tho I did keep up with it. Mk3 took the game in a direction that I felt was even worse. So I got rid of everything and haven't looked back. I love the world and I consider the Trollbloods one of the best factions to ever be created for a game. However the over competitive community, overpriced and poor quality models along with the changes at privateer itself forced me to move on. Every store within 2 hours of me has either put the product on clearance or is getting ready to and all the players have quit and moved to other games.

not sure, its still pretty much top dog here, only X-wing is more popular, pretty much noone around here plays 40k and AoS never got off the ground (Kill team is looking like its attracting a lot of attention locally)

 RiTides wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I agree that the people saying Warmachine was cheaper than GW were just wrong - the models are similarly priced and often of poorer quality. I love some of them, like the Dire Troll Mauler and the Earthborn and Mulg

Those are still my 3 favorite models of the range (in metal) and the ones I started with

JohnHwangDD - You're right of course, it can always be a mix, and Warmahordes has always had some of the weaknesses people are pointing out in this thread. But the question was "What happened?". As obviously, it was doing pretty well despite its shortcomings, until suddenly it wasn't. And I think that has more to do with the events I listed above, rather than the more general dislikes people are posting about the game (imo, of course).

I think the big thing that impacted PP was X-wing. You mention Malifaux and Guildball, but feel and saw in my local scene X-wing have the biggest impact. In various threads (even now in this one) that would devolve into GW bashing, X-wing was always held up to mock GW prices.

Why buy this one model when you can get a complete competitive list for X-wing for the same cost.

Problem is the same applied to WMH. A colossal is just as eye watering price wise as a knight. I play AOS, but also play Infinity and Batman and when I grab some GW boxes, I think, Damnn, I can start a whole new army for that price in X

Plus, as many people pointed out in the past, WMH tournaments often were seas of unpainted and even unassembled models. X-wing came out with tight rules, zero model prep, and a massive IP. That not only sucked a lot of players away from GW, it sucked players away from PP. While GW cultivated their HHHobby where they appealed to modelers and painters as well, PP's playerbase pushed mostly the game play and rules. As pointed out, PP puts out some good models, but very few that would grab the painters or hobby people. Throw in PP's PVC figs, they didn't have a hobby base to help cushion any falls. What happens to a game that prides itself on the power of its rules when a better game with other advantages appears? It suffers.

X-wing might now be suffering for bloat and FF's own money grubbing schemes, but it was very accessible for enough time to really hurt PP.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just wanted to add one more thing regarding player community, while the first press ganger in my area was a horrible "Page 5" guy who didn't last. We had several great guys followed up as Press Gangers to help build the WMH community. Have friends who moved to WMH after WHFB 8th and AOS and feel the community is welcoming.

Would have been playing WMH if it weren't for the caster kill mechanic. Just rubs me the wrong way.